(2019) PF Trayce Jackson-Davis to INDIANA

[Stromboli]

26 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

That's fine. An open shot is an open shot. You shoot open shots. 

- DeVonte Green

      - Loaded Chicken Sandwich 

[Stuhoo]

Oh man—a sandwich showdown throw down!

May the better bread and fillings win. 
(we will keep score by tabulating points per possession, and tomato sauce/mozzarella  quality)

[IU Scott]

10 hours ago, Stromboli said:

HoosierHoopster, this isn’t directed at you. Love having you here and think you really contribute. But I’ve heard so many times that Trayce needs to develop his midrange jumper, and that will get him to the NBA. I haven’t ranted about this issue in awhile so here goes. Shoot, maybe it will even bring mdn82 out of hiding. 
 

The midrange jumper (outside of the rare situation) is the dumbest shot in basketball. You won’t convince me otherwise. The game has moved away from it. There are very few players for whom any higher volume midrange jumper is a good shot, and they happen to be the best basketball players in the world. We’re talking a handful of guys here. It’s a bad shot for good shooters, and a worse shot for below average shooters. If shooting isn’t TJD’s strength, even if he improves, why encourage a below average shooter to take more of the worst shot in the game. 

 

To me, Trayce’s unique strength is his ability to cover ground fast. The basket is always two quick steps away from Trayce. Better ball movement (and yes having shooters to capitalize on good looks) creates seams for him to zoom in for the high percentage shot.

 

If I could pick something for Trayce to improve on, it would be passing. Remember Juwan’s passing? He’d survey the court fast and could make a great pass. If Trayce can prove he’ll deliver to the open shooter or some sweet dump passes, that will open things up just as well. Coaches aren’t dumb. They will park their defenders even if Trayce does develop the midrange jumper because even hitting them at an average clip (45% ?) produces junk offense. The more you take, the worse it is. I also think it highly unlikely Woodson wants his All American PF/C spending a lot of time on the perimeter. Put him where he’s excellent. As Adranga called it in his explanation of the 4-1 motion offense, the Dunker’s Spot. 
 

I think with better team off-ball movement and a commitment by Trayce to become a passer, he’ll see more opportunities for high percentage shots at the basket, and the team overall will be more efficient. And yes obviously improving his skill set and finishing will help him. But counting on one guy to just win 1-on-1 matchups isn’t great basketball and is a tough go in the B1G. We’ll have a much higher ceiling if our talented players also learn ball movement. 

I am sorry but this line of thinking is what is hurting offenses in college basketball. Any open shot is a quality shot no matter if it is a layup a mid range shot or a 3.  It is funny that all of this analytics tells us that shooting more 3's or layups is the most effecient offense.  If this the best way then why is scoring so far down compared to the past.  IU of the 90's with Cheaney, Henderson and Anderson made a living on the 15 foot shot.  They averaged over 80 points a game without shooting a high volume of 3's.

[Brass Cannon]

1 hour ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

That's fine. An open shot is an open shot. You shoot open shots. 

Offenses should work to manufacture open shots of their choosing.  

[hoosierbgh]

6 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Offenses should work to manufacture open shots of their choosing.  

Yes, of course, but then there is the opposing defense working to take away those preferred open shots. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

7 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Offenses should work to manufacture open shots of their choosing.  

And if that offensive gets an open shot from 15-18 feet, shoot it. Why would we tell Trayce to go shoot 3s when he can't hit from 15 feet?

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

This also shows the problem with leaning so heavily if analytics. If you're playing against Tim Duncan, analytics say to just let him shoot his 15 bank shot. But what player in their right mind would actually allow that to happen? None because they know Duncan was a great kid range shooter. You going to let Dirk just shoot wide open mid range? Nope. MJ? Nope. Kobe? Nope. A players feel of the game is important in that situation. 

[HoosierAloha]

This also shows the problem with leaning so heavily if analytics. If you're playing against Tim Duncan, analytics say to just let him shoot his 15 bank shot. But what player in their right mind would actually allow that to happen? None because they know Duncan was a great kid range shooter. You going to let Dirk just shoot wide open mid range? Nope. MJ? Nope. Kobe? Nope. A players feel of the game is important in that situation. 

I’m not trying to be an @$$ but do you understand how analytics work?


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[Brass Cannon]

56 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

And if that offensive gets an open shot from 15-18 feet, shoot it. Why would we tell Trayce to go shoot 3s when he can't hit from 15 feet?

And If he can hit them at 55% have at it. If so he will be a first round pick guaranteed. But if not then he shouldn’t shoot it because because a bad shot is a shot that has an expected value of less than a point 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

43 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

And If he can hit them at 55% have at it. If so he will be a first round pick guaranteed. But if not then he shouldn’t shoot it because because a bad shot is a shot that has an expected value of less than a point 

If he's never going to shoot it a 15 foot jump shot, then he never needs to shoot a 3. It harder to hit that 15-18 ft shot, but that deals with height of shot, angles etc. But if you're open, shoot the freaking ball. I'm not asking Shaq to shoot 15 ft jumpers. But if Trayce wants to expand his game to the 3pt line, he should try hitting those first. Another thing is, Trayces role in the NBA won't be to score. It'll probably never be a starter. It'll be screening, rolling, rebounding and defending. Him scoring will likely just be a consequence of the defense leaving him for a ball handler and catching a lob. 

[Stuhoo]

7 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

If he's never going to shoot it a 15 foot jump shot, then he never needs to shoot a 3. It harder to hit that 15-18 ft shot, but that deals with height of shot, angles etc. But if you're open, shoot the freaking ball. I'm not asking Shaq to shoot 15 ft jumpers. But if Trayce wants to expand his game to the 3pt line, he should try hitting those first. Another thing is, Trayces role in the NBA won't be to score. It'll probably never be a starter. It'll be screening, rolling, rebounding and defending. Him scoring will likely just be a consequence of the defense leaving him for a ball handler and catching a lob. 

This post contains a pretty spot on assessment of TJD in the pros.

However, there are plenty of bigs in the NBA that shoot threes well and have no mid-range game whatsoever. Thomas Bryant and OG are good examples. They score almost entirely at the rim and from three, with no midrange game.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

22 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

This post contains a pretty spot on assessment of TJD in the pros.

However, there are plenty of bigs in the NBA that shoot threes well and have no mid-range game whatsoever. Thomas Bryant and OG are good examples. They score almost entirely at the rim and from three, with no midrange game.

But they can probably hit it. That's the problem with TJD. He hasn't been able to. Obviously the game is moving to the Stan Van Gundy theory of layups and 3s only, but in his development, he should try hitting mid range before shooting 3s. He doesn't have great mechanics, which may really hinder his ability to shoot 3s. But I think from a development side, he should work mid range before backing up. And for a scout, it will at least give a really good base to work with. 

[Str8Hoosiers]

2 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

If he's never going to shoot it a 15 foot jump shot, then he never needs to shoot a 3. It harder to hit that 15-18 ft shot, but that deals with height of shot, angles etc. But if you're open, shoot the freaking ball. I'm not asking Shaq to shoot 15 ft jumpers. But if Trayce wants to expand his game to the 3pt line, he should try hitting those first. Another thing is, Trayces role in the NBA won't be to score. It'll probably never be a starter. It'll be screening, rolling, rebounding and defending. Him scoring will likely just be a consequence of the defense leaving him for a ball handler and catching a lob. 

 

1 hour ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

But they can probably hit it. That's the problem with TJD. He hasn't been able to. Obviously the game is moving to the Stan Van Gundy theory of layups and 3s only, but in his development, he should try hitting mid range before shooting 3s. He doesn't have great mechanics, which may really hinder his ability to shoot 3s. But I think from a development side, he should work mid range before backing up. And for a scout, it will at least give a really good base to work with. 

Why wouldn't you try the easier shot first?

You said the 3 is easier than the mid range but want him to master the mid range prior to trying to work on the 3??

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

3 minutes ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

 

Why wouldn't you try the easier shot first?

You said the 3 is easier than the mid range but want him to master the mid range prior to trying to work on the 3??

It is easier but at the same time you don't want to ruin the mechanics of a shot. Abs TJDs are already rough, so you have to build him to that point. Don't skip crawling and go right to sprinting. If I am a coach and developer, I want you to prove to me you can hit FTs and 15-18 foot jumpshot before I try to make you Steph Curry. 

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

It is easier but at the same time you don't want to ruin the mechanics of a shot. Abs TJDs are already rough, so you have to build him to that point. Don't skip crawling and go right to sprinting. If I am a coach and developer, I want you to prove to me you can hit FTs and 15-18 foot jumpshot before I try to make you Steph Curry. 

No reason to develop the worse shot first 

[Str8Hoosiers]

4 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

It is easier but at the same time you don't want to ruin the mechanics of a shot. Abs TJDs are already rough, so you have to build him to that point. Don't skip crawling and go right to sprinting. If I am a coach and developer, I want you to prove to me you can hit FTs and 15-18 foot jumpshot before I try to make you Steph Curry. 

I truly think your analogy is backwards but who the heck knows at this point...

Crawling is easier than Sprinting... therefore you learn to crawl first.

3p is easier than mid range therefore shouldn't you learn that first?

Or maybe I am making too much of an analogy and its just drivel at this point....

 

Regardless TJD should learn to finish at the rim first with BOTH hands... then get the perfect form for FTs (cause he will have lots of opportunities)…. and should likely NEVER shoot a Mid Range or 3p shot!!! (hopefully we have plenty of shooters for that)

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

15 minutes ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

I truly think your analogy is backwards but who the heck knows at this point...

Crawling is easier than Sprinting... therefore you learn to crawl first.

3p is easier than mid range therefore shouldn't you learn that first?

Or maybe I am making too much of an analogy and its just drivel at this point....

 

Regardless TJD should learn to finish at the rim first with BOTH hands... then get the perfect form for FTs (cause he will have lots of opportunities)…. and should likely NEVER shoot a Mid Range or 3p shot!!! (hopefully we have plenty of shooters for that)

It has to deal with the strength needed between the two shots. Which causes an impact on mechanics. The 3pt shot is easier because the angle and height of the ball to go in are different than they are from 15 feet. But at the same time it is more difficult because it's further away. It's an odd complexity. TJD needs to get his mechanics set before moving out. And even then, could still not be able to shoot. TJD being able to hit mid range at a good clip will also help his post game a lot. He will be able to faceup with a threat of shooting over the defender, which gives the ability to actually shot fake and drive. 

 

[HoosierHoopster]

13 hours ago, Stromboli said:

- DeVonte Green

      - Loaded Chicken Sandwich 

Who said DeVonte needed the shot to be open to shoot?

:)

[Hovadipo]

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

9 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

That's how I felt when I learned about the different trajectory paths for shots.