TOM CREAN FIRED

[HoosierAloha 30,020]

I might be in the minority here but I would like to continue to see OG come off the bench next season.  There are a lot of variables and that could change depending on what happens going forward.  I see him as a spark that could be a B1G sixth man of the year type contributor. 

[Brass Cannon 24,082]

Its to the point where if Troy stayed I would rather play him at SG. 

 

Rojo

Troy

OG

DD

Bryant

[Old Friend 8,389]

true. That's always been the case though. Crean has historically been a master of winning enough to keep the wolves off but never enough to truly convince the fanbase. To me, it fully looks like we will have another year with Crean minimum unless we sink like the Titanic.

I have always been in the " I just want to win" crowd. I find myself willing to give Crean that chance over and over. It's a vicious cycle.

We haven't beaten anyone of substance.  We just haven't.  Notre Dame looks better now.  Wisconsin looks better now.  But apart from those games....Indiana has nary a single solid win.   

 

The good news :  Sagarin rating is 18.  That's solid.

                             Indiana is far better defensively without Blackmon

                            Indiana has figured out how to win close games on the road

 

The bad news : SOS is 175.   That's pathetic.

 

As our SOS gets better, our Sagarin will drop unless we win several games against "good" teams, and the Big Ten is viewed now as a very weak conference.  Iowa is better than we are.  Maryland is.  Purdue is.  Depending on the day, Michigan State is. But we play just 5 games against those teams. with just two on the road.  I read today Indiana is projected as an 8 seed...which can obviously change, but Indiana needs to win some of those games to really make noise or really convince anybody they deserve much more.

 

The wolves won't leave Crean's door until he has sustained success.  His resume is what it is.  The eyeball test is what it is.  The people internally that say he wears them out are who they are.  The high school and AAU coaches who can't stand him aren't making things up.  He's done a lot of damage to himself.

 

Crean's whole career has been built on beating cupcakes.  Even at Marquette, his pre-conference schedules were largely a joke.   We all want to win, but at some point, you actually have to DO it....and then do it again.  And again.  I really think it'd take 3 straight seasons to convince me he's a coach who can win consistently.  And I mean top 3 Big Ten finishes with 22+ wins, at least one league title, an appearance or two on Sunday in the BTT, and at least one trip (and probably two) past the sweet 16.  I don't think that's too much to ask at Indiana.  Especially because he's really not shown he can do ANY of those with any regularity, and never has.  

 

For what it's worth, I think next year's team (even without Yogi, Zeisloft, and Williams) has a chance to be better than this one.  Those three are all liabilities defensively for different reasons.

[Feathery 4,005]

I don't see any way one of the best scorers in the country (or B1G at the very least) comes off the bench in a largely offensive-oriented system. He is not very good on defense... no argument there, but a it's doubtful a 15-18 ppg McD's AA is a bench player.

The way is the coach wants to win and the team is better without Blckmon. If he shows he can play defense at a decent level, then he will start bc his scoring is great.

[Brass Cannon 24,082]

I don't see any way one of the best scorers in the country (or B1G at the very least) comes off the bench in a largely offensive-oriented system. He is not very good on defense... no argument there, but a it's doubtful a 15-18 ppg McD's AA is a bench player.

 

Not very many guys who are scoring 15-18 PPG are giving up 15-18 PPG more than any average defender would.  When James Harden can give you lesson on D.  You are a special case and should be treated as such. 

 

When your coach has to use gimmick defenses to hide you so the other team can't just throw it to the guy you are guarding, there is problem especially as a sophmore.  And while he did score well it was against Cupcakes having a bad Assist to Turnover ratio to boot. 

[Hovadipo 53,374]

Not very many guys who are scoring 15-18 PPG are giving up 15-18 PPG more than any average defender would. When James Harden can give you lesson on D. You are a special case and should be treated as such.

When your coach has to use gimmick defenses to hide you so the other team can't just throw it to the guy you are guarding, there is problem especially as a sophmore. And while he did score well it was against Cupcakes having a bad Assist to Turnover ratio to boot.

I'm not really sure what your first paragraph means...is there any concrete evidence that he's giving up 15-18 more than an average defender? And the thing about Harden...what? I just don't know what you're saying.

Second paragraph...yes, he is a bad defender. I said that, but as far as scoring, you're wrong. He averaged 15.7 last year as a freshman and was averaging 15.8 before he went down this year. His A/TO ratio was pretty much even with a small up tick in both this season (.2 % points up on assists and .3 on turnovers). I'm still not 100% convinced that all of our defensive woes have been cured because he went down either. It probably was part of it, but it's also obvious that we miss his scoring sometimes too. And it will be really apparent when the competition picks up and Yogi can't take over and we need a bucket.

[Hovadipo 53,374]

The way is the coach wants to win and the team is better without Blckmon. If he shows he can play defense at a decent level, then he will start bc his scoring is great.

We'll find out if the team is better without Blackmon. I'd like to have a larger sample size than 3 games against conference bottom feeders and 2 against a middle-of-the pack team. The defense has picked up, but we will struggle to score and miss JB soon enough when we need scoring.

[Bobman1 2,909]

I might be in the minority here but I would like to continue to see OG come off the bench next season. There are a lot of variables and that could change depending on what happens going forward. I see him as a spark that could be a B1G sixth man of the year type contributor.

Like a Sheehey.

[HoosierAloha 30,020]

Like a Sheehey.

 

Similar but with even more versatility, that's why I like him off the bench.  If DD has a bad start or picks up early fouls bring him in as a stretch 4.  He'll have the strength to compete with most 4s in the B1G.  If Hartman, Troy, or whoever else needs rest on the wing he can come in and add length and athleticism to make a taller/longer lineup. 

[Brass Cannon 24,082]

I'm not really sure what your first paragraph means...is there any concrete evidence that he's giving up 15-18 more than an average defender? And the thing about Harden...what? I just don't know what you're saying.

Second paragraph...yes, he is a bad defender. I said that, but as far as scoring, you're wrong. He averaged 15.7 last year as a freshman and was averaging 15.8 before he went down this year. His A/TO ratio was pretty much even with a small up tick in both this season (.2 % points up on assists and .3 on turnovers). I'm still not 100% convinced that all of our defensive woes have been cured because he went down either. It probably was part of it, but it's also obvious that we miss his scoring sometimes too. And it will be really apparent when the competition picks up and Yogi can't take over and we need a bucket.

Basically I am saying he is a net negative on the court. Sure might score 18 points but he easily hands those 18 and more back to the opposing team with his pathetic D.

And I would expect a sophomore guard in a high powered offense to have more assists than turnovers. So he really only helps our offense with his scoring. Which as previously stated isn't enough to overlook his pathetic D.

And the James Harden comment was to illustrate how pathetic his d is. It makes harden look like he's trying.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Can we get a "I don't think JBJ is very good" thread for all of this?

[HoosierTrav 7,624]

If I win the Powerball I'll buy out his contract and Brad Stevens' contract as well.

If I had to bet, I'd wager that money is the least important of things to be considered when making this move.

[OliviaPope40 6,317]

If I had to bet, I'd wager that money is the least important of things to be considered when making this move.

Why do you say that?

[Uspshoosier 44,553]

We haven't beaten anyone of substance. We just haven't. Notre Dame looks better now. Wisconsin looks better now. But apart from those games....Indiana has nary a single solid win.
.

while you might not look at it as iu not beaten anyone with substance, in the committee's eyes there are several wins with substance. The committee likes top 100 rpi wins and wins away from home. They are 5-2 away from assembly hall and 5-2 against rpi top 100 teams (notre dame, Wisconsin, Ohio state, creighton, and Ipfw). If someone told me at the beginning of the year a win against Ipfw (69) would be a better resume win then Georgetown (103) I would of laughed. We do have a bad loss as of today with Unlv on a nuetral court. Hopefully a coaching change for them rally's the team and they go on a run and crack the top 100 (121 right know)

The downside is that we don't have a top 25 win (which we will have 4 opportunities to do so in the big ten later on in the year. we are not going to win all of those games but we are also not going to lose all of them as well (at least statistical data will say we will win 1 or 2)

While the B1G might be down from the last couple of years I disagree with you that it is a weak conference. A conference with the (9,11,15, 32, 39, 47, 63, 82, 89, and 98th) rpi teams in it is far from a weak conference. It might not be a top 3 conference this year but it isn't weak. I agree we need that signature win that will separate us from the other teams with s similar resume. There just isn't much separation this year from teams ranked 20-60.

Fwiw lunardi has us at the 28th best resume in his s curve for all the teams he projects into the field (7 seed)
...27-TTech, 28-Ind, 29-WICHST, 30-STMARY, 31-Mich, 32-Cal, 33-Utah, 34-Cincy, 35-GWash, 36-Zaga, 37-Conn, 38-Fla, 39-Monmouth, 40-NDame...

They will have numerous opportunities to improve their resume and seed or they will have numerous opportunities lay some eggs and get a worst seed flame out. Only time will tell. One thing I do know this years March madness will be must see tv more then usual, the seeds by the teams name will be be meaningless for seeds 4-12 and should make for some crazy matchups

[HoosierTrav 7,624]

Why do you say that?

Just a guess really. I try to base it off of what I've read about the family. They dont seem to place as much emphasis on money, as they do things, like job security, friendships, environments that their children can thrive in, and in Brads case, a desire to take on certain challenges. I'm not saying that money has nothing to do with it. I'm really just saying that we aren't just going to back a brinks truck up to their home and win them over. It's not like they are earning peanuts.  We have to sell them on much more than a salary increase. Brad left Eli Lilly to make less than $15,000 to chase a challenge/dream. Sell him on the challenge of restoring Indiana Basketball to it's past glory. Sell him on having the ability to once again have a hand in changing boys into men. Sell him on the fact that he has been unanimously chosen by the entire fan base, not just the admin, on being the one man who is capable of mending our fences to the degree they need mended. Then offer him a salary that reflects our confidence in him and doesn't come off as pure desperation (although that's exactly what we are.)

[OliviaPope40 6,317]

Just a guess really. I try to base it off of what I've read about the family. They dont seem to place as much emphasis on money, as they do things, like job security, friendships, environments that their children can thrive in, and in Brads case, a desire to take on certain challenges. I'm not saying that money has nothing to do with it. I'm really just saying that we aren't just going to back a brinks truck up to their home and win them over. It's not like they are earning peanuts.  We have to sell them on much more than a salary increase. Brad left Eli Lilly to make less than $15,000 to chase a challenge/dream. Sell him on the challenge of restoring Indiana Basketball to it's past glory. Sell him on having the ability to once again have a hand in changing boys into men. Sell him on the fact that he has been unanimously chosen by the entire fan base, not just the admin, on being the one man who is capable of mending our fences to the degree they need mended. Then offer him a salary that reflects our confidence in him and doesn't come off as pure desperation (although that's exactly what we are.)

I could of brought up all of those points.

[Old Friend 8,389]

while you might not look at it as iu not beaten anyone with substance, in the committee's eyes there are several wins with substance. The committee likes top 100 rpi wins and wins away from home. They are 5-2 away from assembly hall and 5-2 against rpi top 100 teams (notre dame, Wisconsin, Ohio state, creighton, and Ipfw). If someone told me at the beginning of the year a win against Ipfw (69) would be a better resume win then Georgetown (103) I would of laughed. We do have a bad loss as of today with Unlv on a nuetral court. Hopefully a coaching change for them rally's the team and they go on a run and crack the top 100 (121 right know)

The downside is that we don't have a top 25 win (which we will have 4 opportunities to do so in the big ten later on in the year. we are not going to win all of those games but we are also not going to lose all of them as well (at least statistical data will say we will win 1 or 2)

While the B1G might be down from the last couple of years I disagree with you that it is a weak conference. A conference with the (9,11,15, 32, 39, 47, 63, 82, 89, and 98th) rpi teams in it is far from a weak conference. It might not be a top 3 conference this year but it isn't weak. I agree we need that signature win that will separate us from the other teams with s similar resume. There just isn't much separation this year from teams ranked 20-60.

Fwiw lunardi has us at the 28th best resume in his s curve for all the teams he projects into the field (7 seed)
...27-TTech, 28-Ind, 29-WICHST, 30-STMARY, 31-Mich, 32-Cal, 33-Utah, 34-Cincy, 35-GWash, 36-Zaga, 37-Conn, 38-Fla, 39-Monmouth, 40-NDame...

They will have numerous opportunities to improve their resume and seed or they will have numerous opportunities lay some eggs and get a worst seed flame out. Only time will tell. One thing I do know this years March madness will be must see tv more then usual, the seeds by the teams name will be be meaningless for seeds 4-12 and should make for some crazy matchups

Just saying we're projected right now as an 8 seed. I think we'll make the tournament.  I don't think there's much doubt about that.

 

But....looking a little deeper.  This is Indiana.  This is Tom Crean's 8th season.  We're talking about "top 100 wins?"  We're talking about "making the NCAA Tournament?"

 

I didn't make the comment about the Big Ten.  That comes from "experts."  Joe Lunardi in particular.  He said the other day that the Big Ten is as weak as it's been in 20 years because there just aren't many "really good"  teams.  Maryland may be.  Don't know.  Iowa is, I think...kind of been under the radar until recently.  Purdue's had some stumbles.  As has Michigan State.  Indiana hasn't beaten anyone of real substance and got blasted at Duke.   

 

This isn't my opinion. I'm just relaying what I hear and what I see, applying it to this thread, which is all about Crean and his long term viability at Indiana.  

 

You're absolutely right that their future opportunities will make or break our season, but if they stumble in any of the games other than "opportunity games," Indiana puts itself at risk.

[Uspshoosier 44,553]

Just saying we're projected right now as an 8 seed. I think we'll make the tournament. I don't think there's much doubt about that.

But....looking a little deeper. This is Indiana. This is Tom Crean's 8th season. We're talking about "top 100 wins?" We're talking about "making the NCAA Tournament?"

I didn't make the comment about the Big Ten. That comes from "experts." Joe Lunardi in particular. He said the other day that the Big Ten is as weak as it's been in 20 years because there just aren't many "really good" teams. Maryland may be. Don't know. Iowa is, I think...kind of been under the radar until recently. Purdue's had some stumbles. As has Michigan State. Indiana hasn't beaten anyone of real substance and got blasted at Duke.

This isn't my opinion. I'm just relaying what I hear and what I see, applying it to this thread, which is all about Crean and his long term viability at Indiana.

You're absolutely right that their future opportunities will make or break our season, but if they stumble in any of the games other than "opportunity games," Indiana puts itself at risk.

lunardi had 6 projected teams in the field last year from the big 10 (he had us first out) 7 of the 14 teams ended up making the dance. Wisconsin was the only really good team from the big 10 last year with everyone else that made the dance a 4 seed or lower. While me and you know Michigan st was a good team they still was a 7 seed. Project to this year and lunardi has 6 teams making the field just as he did last year and has Iowa, Maryland, and Michigan st getting top 3 seeds. To me that doesn't sound like a conference being the weakest it's been in 20 years. I was just pointing out what the committee would consider a win with substance and a top 100 win is just that in my opinion when getting a better seed. If you dig deeper every school is judged by their top 100 wins no matter what year a coaches tenure it might be. This is Indiana at least that's what I keep telling myself the last 20 years and we shouldn't have to worry about missing the tounament each year. I have never questioned wheather we would make it this year I just thought we would of separated ourselves with the top 8 teams this year that obviously didn't happen and we are just another team that has flaws but can get hot and make a run in the tournament. Having said all of this I still think we should strive to be better and great and that starts with the coach. We have the same goals with this program just different views on certain subjects within the program. Crean is who he is.....an average coach that has had some success. He was a division one coach before iu and he could be a division one coach after his time here hopefully some time in the near future. Good discussion

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I could of brought up all of those points.

Lol ok? He was just answering your question.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Just a guess really. I try to base it off of what I've read about the family. They dont seem to place as much emphasis on money, as they do things, like job security, friendships, environments that their children can thrive in, and in Brads case, a desire to take on certain challenges. I'm not saying that money has nothing to do with it. I'm really just saying that we aren't just going to back a brinks truck up to their home and win them over. It's not like they are earning peanuts. We have to sell them on much more than a salary increase. Brad left Eli Lilly to make less than $15,000 to chase a challenge/dream. Sell him on the challenge of restoring Indiana Basketball to it's past glory. Sell him on having the ability to once again have a hand in changing boys into men. Sell him on the fact that he has been unanimously chosen by the entire fan base, not just the admin, on being the one man who is capable of mending our fences to the degree they need mended. Then offer him a salary that reflects our confidence in him and doesn't come off as pure desperation (although that's exactly what we are.)

Not to mention, money won't be hard for our administration to come by should they convince Brad to come. The money will flood the Hall should word get out that we were actively pursuing his hiring.