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BlueDevil

College Bball Thread

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23 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

I get why people include. I just don't. And it's not that they aren't on that level historically, it's just a difference in the history itself. Where Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC and UCLA were pioneers and trailblazers of college basketball, Duke without any doubt has a much different history and not that of a Blue Blood. And honestly, UCLA could even have their own category. Indiana has the historical success that makes them a Blue Blood and even fun tidbits that improved the game like being the first program ever to use glass backboards.

IMHO (by that criteria) you can’t include UCLA. 
 

Wooden took over in 1948 and didn’t go to his 1st Final Four until two years after Duke. Yeah, they won a number of championships -  primarily after Sam Gilbert became involved with the program.

The others I completely understand your thinking.

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Just now, Tasmanian Devil said:

IMHO (by that criteria) you can’t include UCLA. 
 

Wooden took over in 1948 and didn’t go to his 1st Final Four until two years after Duke. Yeah, they won a number of championships -  primarily after Sam Gilbert became involved with the program.

The others I completely understand your thinking.

That's why I said UCLA could even have their own category. It isn't necessarily a tiered system. Just category within the tiers.

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1 hour ago, Tasmanian Devil said:

Don’t forget 63, 64 & 66 Final Four teams under Vic Bubas.

Wasn't there a guy back on the old rivals that did some research about Duke. It was like in the 60's and 70's that Duke finished in top 10 of the AP more than any team

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24 minutes ago, Demo said:

Maryland is hiring Va Tech Asst and lead recruiter Mike Jones. Was the HC at DeMatha before Va Tech. As inside as inside gets in the DMV.

Wonder what Kenya will offer to recruiting going forward. I mean, he’s been around for a while and has experience but I think the DMV is dead to us.  
 

 

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25 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Wasn't there a guy back on the old rivals that did some research about Duke. It was like in the 60's and 70's that Duke finished in top 10 of the AP more than any team

From 1960 to 1979, Duke was ranked 132 times in the AP Poll. Others like UK, UNC or UCLA might be close to those numbers during that span, but Duke had been a quality program way before Coach K came along.

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15 hours ago, cthomas said:

I completely understand where you are coming from. Perspective is always Interesting to me because it varies so much with age. I've seen four of the five although I was only about six when I saw the first one. Yes, I am THAT old. I, of course, wouldn't trade any of those for someone else's achievements. Mostly because they are part of my personal history. It was a different time, not necessarily better, but different. I truly hope that the younger people in our fanbase get to experience some of the things I have. CMW is trying to give all of us that experience once again.

I’ve been thinking about this and @AKHoosier’s response. And given your experience maybe you can back me up here, but what I don’t think the average younger IU basketball fan understands is how much of at-the-apex of college basketball world IU and Coach Knight were from about the ‘87 championship to about his last great teams in the mid 90’s.   
 

After ‘87 IU had just won its 5th title and Knight his 3rd. Only UCLA had more but they were in a post-Wooden malaise and UK could claim 5 but were scandal-ridden and relegated to hiring an upcoming, fresh faced Yankee as coach. Knight had his 3rd and historically only Rupp and Wooden could be said to be equals or better. No contemporaries could.  He had cemented himself as one of the best, if not the best, basketball minds the game ever saw.  
 

For reference, the early 90’s would see historically relevant but success-starved programs like Duke and Kansas start down their paths to success, and K kick off his collection of titles. UNC in much the same boat would see their much-adored coach Smith get his 2nd title and some long wanted validation as an all-time great although both the coach’s and institution’s accomplishments still paled in comparison to IU and Knight. By the end of the decade Pitino would put UK back past us and even UCLA would rise from the abyss for a hot second to grab another title.   
 

But for a stretch there Indiana basketball could make a legitimate claim to the best program with the best coach in the country.   I think that is unimaginable for younger fans. 
 

As we get ready to watch Uconn possibly join the 5 club, it is wild that the Indiana fan base has been reduced to playing some kind of historical gate-keepers about who gets to be “Basketball royalty.” In a sad way, it is about all we have left to contribute to those discussions. The last 25 years have been brutal to us. Just brutal. Even the much-maligned UCLA have had semi-frequent trips to the Final Four.  
 

So win or lose by Uconn tonight, I think most rational by-standers would rather be in Uconn’s position going forward than ours. 

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6 hours ago, Scotty R said:

The thing about UCONN is that until I was in my mid 20's they were an after thought and was not a good program at all.

And that's IU now. We're an afterthought to people in their mid 20s today, at least on a national stage. People know we've got a history, like they know Notre Dame has a history, but we haven't been a good program during those people's lifetime.

Everything is cyclical. It's the only thing that gives me hope we'll return to the level we all know we can be before I'm old and gray.

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49 minutes ago, str8baller said:

I’ve been thinking about this and @AKHoosier’s response. And given your experience maybe you can back me up here, but what I don’t think the average younger IU basketball fan understands is how much of at-the-apex of college basketball world IU and Coach Knight were from about the ‘87 championship to about his last great teams in the mid 90’s.   
 

After ‘87 IU had just won its 5th title and Knight his 3rd. Only UCLA had more but they were in a post-Wooden malaise and UK could claim 5 but were scandal-ridden and relegated to hiring an upcoming, fresh faced Yankee as coach. Knight had his 3rd and historically only Rupp and Wooden could be said to be equals or better. No contemporaries could.  He had cemented himself as one of the best, if not the best, basketball minds the game ever saw.  
 

For reference, the early 90’s would see historically relevant but success-starved programs like Duke and Kansas start down their paths to success, and K kick off his collection of titles. UNC in much the same boat would see their much-adored coach Smith get his 2nd title and some long wanted validation as an all-time great although both the coach’s and institution’s accomplishments still paled in comparison to IU and Knight. By the end of the decade Pitino would put UK back past us and even UCLA would rise from the abyss for a hot second to grab another title.   
 

But for a stretch there Indiana basketball could make a legitimate claim to the best program with the best coach in the country.   I think that is unimaginable for younger fans. 
 

As we get ready to watch Uconn possibly join the 5 club, it is wild that the Indiana fan base has been reduced to playing some kind of historical gate-keepers about who gets to be “Basketball royalty.” In a sad way, it is about all we have left to contribute to those discussions. The last 25 years have been brutal to us. Just brutal. Even the much-maligned UCLA have had semi-frequent trips to the Final Four.  
 

So win or lose by Uconn tonight, I think most rational by-standers would rather be in Uconn’s position going forward than ours. 

Can't really argue with any of points you make. I blame the administration's hatred for CBK for what has happened to IU basketball. I remember when the governor of Indiana was a regular at IU games.

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2 hours ago, AKHoosier said:

And that's IU now. We're an afterthought to people in their mid 20s today, at least on a national stage. People know we've got a history, like they know Notre Dame has a history, but we haven't been a good program during those people's lifetime.

Everything is cyclical. It's the only thing that gives me hope we'll return to the level we all know we can be before I'm old and gray.

You are correct and to complicate it further, the landscape is changing, so the old paradigm may not fit as well. I wouldn't put too much stock in a single tourney, but FAU & SDSU just made their first Final Four. If it hadn't been SDSU it would have been Creighton, also their first FF. Baylor came out of nowhere a few years ago....lots of moving pieces. IU has some real advantages (they've squandered for 20yrs), but the rules are changing. 

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17 minutes ago, Hardwood83 said:

You are correct and to complicate it further, the landscape is changing, so the old paradigm may not fit as well. I wouldn't put too much stock in a single tourney, but FAU & SDSU just made their first Final Four. If it hadn't been SDSU it would have been Creighton, also their first FF. Baylor came out of nowhere a few years ago....lots of moving pieces. IU has some real advantages (they've squandered for 20yrs), but the rules are changing. 

Don't forget that San Diego State was likely going to be a 2 seed back in 2020 when covid hit.

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41 minutes ago, Hardwood83 said:

You are correct and to complicate it further, the landscape is changing, so the old paradigm may not fit as well. I wouldn't put too much stock in a single tourney, but FAU & SDSU just made their first Final Four. If it hadn't been SDSU it would have been Creighton, also their first FF. Baylor came out of nowhere a few years ago....lots of moving pieces. IU has some real advantages (they've squandered for 20yrs), but the rules are changing. 

And that is what scares me. We have all the right tools but just can’t seem to get far. The last time I really truly believed we had a final four team was when we lost to Syracuse in the sweet 16, that was a decade ago. Whether our fan base likes it or not we haven’t amounted to really anything since we  lost to Maryland TWENTY years ago. We have so much potential but just come up short. 

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47 minutes ago, FortWayneHoosier said:

And that is what scares me. We have all the right tools but just can’t seem to get far. The last time I really truly believed we had a final four team was when we lost to Syracuse in the sweet 16, that was a decade ago. Whether our fan base likes it or not we haven’t amounted to really anything since we  lost to Maryland TWENTY years ago. We have so much potential but just come up short. 

Up until Woody, look how the program has been ran the last 20 years. We’ve had some truly inept people in IU Administration/BOT over that period of time.

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All Indiana has to do is move to the southeast coast, or San Diego.  That and promise the starting positions to transfers.  Oh, and possibly $2 million per year for NILs, well in todays $$$$.  Oh, and we need some flexibility on those education and classroom and grades issues.  And we have to really provide assists, on court, to the stars.  We can get you to the next level, furshure.

And if the LEO (Law Enforcement Officers) drop by, the administration must know nothing...nothing.  

A job for dear old Dad would be nice.  That house on the lake...yeah.

Hot wheels and cute drivers...wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Discipline...fagetaboutit.  

Semi-Pro???  Play like your hair is on fire!  And just shoot it.

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54 minutes ago, FortWayneHoosier said:

And that is what scares me. We have all the right tools but just can’t seem to get far. The last time I really truly believed we had a final four team was when we lost to Syracuse in the sweet 16, that was a decade ago. Whether our fan base likes it or not we haven’t amounted to really anything since we  lost to Maryland TWENTY years ago. We have so much potential but just come up short. 

I completely get this feeling of potential just not breaking through. But Imo it goes too far into the negative on IU when we get into the past 20 years .It’s jmo, and not really directed at you or anyone, just quoting you as part of the discussion.

Under Sampson we were surging. 24-4 when Sampson-Gate broke. We were one of the best teams in the country. We were on the cusp, bball wise, but then we all know now how screwed up academics and culture had become under Sampson.

So then blam, Crean comes in, has to play a baseball player walkon, no players, the school idiotically self-destroyed the program, requiring a complete rebuild.

He gets Yogi, Cody to complement Vic, and rebuilds to 3 SW16’s, 2 Big T titles, including the Nation’s then longest-running #1 ranked team, the years with Hulls, Wat, Bryant, OG, etc, we were a destination program again and popular and highly regarded as a program for several years, but then crean wasn’t exactly a bball genius, lost the HS coaches, failed to recruit consistently to fill the gaps of the several players we sent to the NBA, and it was time to move on, and back to mediocrity we fell. 

And God help us all CAM comes in and he’s the worst coach ever at IU, a terrible fit and we’re at best mediocre.

But that last group of years under CAM or Crean’s last isn’t 20 years or post-RMK. Really just an inaccurate picture flowing from disgust over the end of diet coke man and what CAM did to us, imo.

For me, I’ve more or less given up thinking IU will ever be the IU I grew up with, but I also don’t think we’re done being a fairly regular top of the B1G competing team. We just finished 2d in the B1G, with a NPOY level player who will likely be drafted and another guy who will be drafted in the 1st round and it’s Woodson’s 2d year. I have some issues with his stubbornness and decisions but he’s clearly heads above Crean and CAM, recruited well early, and there’s reason to think that will pick up along with portal use and we’ll be back regularly at the top of the B1G and contending for a run. 
 

Time will tell, but consider UCONN. They largely disappeared for a while, now they’re back in the NC. I can see IU doing that too.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tasmanian Devil said:

Up until Woody, look how the program has been ran the last 20 years. We’ve had some truly inept people in IU Administration/BOT over that period of time.

And some incredible players, just shows you how important support and coaching roles are. I believe Woody is a fantastic coach and will shift the program positively. 

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2 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

I completely get this feeling of potential just not breaking through. But Imo it goes too far into the negative on IU when we get into the past 20 tears.It’s jmo, and not really directed at you or anyone, just quoting you as part of the discussion.

Under Sampson we were surging. 24-4 when Sampson-Gate broke. We were one of the best teams in the country. We were on the cusp, bball wise, but then we all know now how screwed up academics and culture had become under Sampson.

So then blam, Crean comes in, has to play a baseball player walkon, no players, the school idiotically self-destroyed the program, requiring a complete rebuild.

He gets Yogi, Cody to complement Vic, and rebuilds to 3 SW16’s, 2 Big T titles, including the Nation’s then longest-running #1 ranked team, the years with Hulls, Wat, Bryant, OG, etc, we were a destination program again and popular and highly regarded as a program for several years, but then crean wasn’t exactly a bball genius, lost the HS coaches, failed to recruit consistently to fill the gaps of the several players we sent to the NBA, and it was time to move on, and back to mediocrity we fell. 

And God help us all CAM comes in and he’s the worst coach ever at IU, a terrible fit and we’re at best mediocre.

But that last group of years under CAM or Crean’s last isn’t 20 years or post-RMK. Really just an inaccurate picture flowing from disgust over the end of diet coke man and what CAM did to us, imo.

For me, I’ve more or less given up thinking IU will ever be the IU I grew up with, but I also don’t think we’re done being a fairly regular top of the B1G competing team. We just finished 2d in the B1G, with a NPOY level player who will likely be drafted and another guy who will be drafted in the 1st round and it’s Woodson’s 2d year. I have some issues with his stubbornness and decisions but he’s clearly heads above Crean and CAM, recruited well early, and there’s reason to think that will pick up along with portal use and we’ll be back regularly at the top of the B1G and contending for a run. 
 

Time will tell, but consider UCONN. They largely disappeared for a while, now they’re back in the NC. I can see IU doing that too.

 

I appreciate this post, after I made my initial reply and realized I was very vague on what I stated. You and I share the same feeling. The timeline of Sampson, crean, and Archie are spot on. 
 

I am also with you as well with the IU I grew up watching, it’s hard to swallow at times but it’s reality so many things have changed and we just need to continue to adapt and overcome.

Thank you for the refreshing reply!!!! 

 

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7 hours ago, Tasmanian Devil said:

Everyone has opinions. 
 

For me,  Duke has to be included in discussions of who is a Blue Blood. Besides their 5 titles, they’ve been runners up 6 times and in the Final Four 17 times. They’ve had sustained success over decades. 
 

And they have a great fanbase. Kids sleeping in tents to get best seats to games. Love em or Hate em, if we’re being honest we have to include them in any lists of Blue Bloods.

They take tenting for the UNC game very seriously to get the best you have to take a quiz I'm told it is not easy.

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