Fire Coach Woodson Thread

[Chris007 43,565]

7 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Look, this response from you and others says a lot. I mean a lot about a lack of understanding of team dynamics. It is also coming through that you are done and that is fine but everything is being twisted to support that argument now. Nothing will sway you. What if the players came out and told you point blank that was a huge reason for their effort changing and not having him while relying on Cupps to be a leader has been tough. 

Is X a word beater… nope. In an off injury all year, rusty as hell, not great last night etc. 

However, there was genuine excitement to get a leader back on the floor. This is seen in sports all the damn time. One guy who fans don’t think is important, goes down, and whole team folds. They have missed him dearly as a leader on the floor. This is a very young team and they don’t look at Cupps like they look at X. Cupps also has a lot of pressure taken off, less minutes to play etc with him back.

You can all say I am a know it all etc but what is this response from you? You and others acting like they know it all too. 

As some one who has played, a child play at a high level,  seen this exact scenario play out before with teams personally, lived it, yeah, I do know a little about it.

You are all correct, it has nothing to do with X because his +\- stats and his turnovers, etc If was pure coincidence they played harder than they have in a long time. I don’t know, maybe since Iowa? Where he played as well.

It is not in any way crazy to think this team is right on bubble line with X or in. Not at all. 

before anyone says yeah but first of year we sucked too. Yeah, we have a ton of new and young players. Woody was playing deep bench and X was still getting back to playing. That is hard to do and always takes athletes multiple games to get back to true form. 

The mere presence of a leader on the floor and dressed makes all world of difference.

[go iu bb 5,485]

10 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Look, this response from you and others says a lot. I mean a lot about a lack of understanding of team dynamics. It is also coming through that you are done and that is fine but everything is being twisted to support that argument now. Nothing will sway you. What if the players came out and told you point blank that was a huge reason for their effort changing and not having him while relying on Cupps to be a leader has been tough. 

Is X a word beater… nope. In an off injury all year, rusty as hell, not great last night etc. 

However, there was genuine excitement to get a leader back on the floor. This is seen in sports all the damn time. One guy who fans don’t think is important, goes down, and whole team folds. They have missed him dearly as a leader on the floor. This is a very young team and they don’t look at Cupps like they look at X. Cupps also has a lot of pressure taken off, less minutes to play etc with him back.

You can all say I am a know it all etc but what is this response from you? You and others acting like they know it all too. 

As some one who has played, a child play at a high level,  seen this exact scenario play out before with teams personally, lived it, yeah, I do know a little about it.

You are all correct, it has nothing to do with X because his +\- stats and his turnovers, etc If was pure coincidence they played harder than they have in a long time. I don’t know, maybe since Iowa? Where he played as well.

It is not in any way crazy to think this team is right on bubble line with X or in. Not at all. 

before anyone says yeah but first of year we sucked too. Yeah, we have a ton of new and young players. Woody was playing deep bench and X was still getting back to playing. That is hard to do and always takes athletes multiple games to get back to true form. 

The mere presence of a leader on the floor and dressed makes all world of difference.

Since you didn't answer the first time, I'll ask again: Where did play? How high of a level?

You're saying we can expect much better play in the rest of the games since XJ is back or was this just a one-off excitement that he's back thing? Please enlighten us with your vast knowledge and understanding.

[chumbo07 24]

9 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Look, this response from you and others says a lot. I mean a lot about a lack of understanding of team dynamics. It is also coming through that you are done and that is fine but everything is being twisted to support that argument now. Nothing will sway you. What if the players came out and told you point blank that was a huge reason for their effort changing and not having him while relying on Cupps to be a leader has been tough. 

Is X a word beater… nope. In an off injury all year, rusty as hell, not great last night etc. 

However, there was genuine excitement to get a leader back on the floor. This is seen in sports all the damn time. One guy who fans don’t think is important, goes down, and whole team folds. They have missed him dearly as a leader on the floor. This is a very young team and they don’t look at Cupps like they look at X. Cupps also has a lot of pressure taken off, less minutes to play etc with him back.

You can all say I am a know it all etc but what is this response from you? You and others acting like they know it all too. 

As some one who has played, a child play at a high level,  seen this exact scenario play out before with teams personally, lived it, yeah, I do know a little about it.

You are all correct, it has nothing to do with X because his +\- stats and his turnovers, etc If was pure coincidence they played harder than they have in a long time. I don’t know, maybe since Iowa? Where he played as well.

It is not in any way crazy to think this team is right on bubble line with X or in. Not at all. 

before anyone says yeah but first of year we sucked too. Yeah, we have a ton of new and young players. Woody was playing deep bench and X was still getting back to playing. That is hard to do and always takes athletes multiple games to get back to true form. 

The mere presence of a leader on the floor and dressed makes all world of difference.

No shot this team is on any bubble line. Winning the Big Ten Tourney is their only way in. 

[Chris007 43,565]

5 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Most of Woody's supporters look at 2 tournaments in first 2 years as reason he should get another year. Really just a surface level argument. Have you heard much about Dolson's feelings on how Woody is doing in other aspects of the Job? Because that is where a lot of issues lie, not just the bad results this year. 

I could get over (eventually) this year if Woody was crushing it in every other aspect of the job. But he is failing imo, at just about all of it.

We'll it was reported that he had to be told to start going to HS games to see recruits. He has missed several big-time AAU tournaments in the past couple of summers. Everyone knew we needed guards in the portal last offseason and he went with Walker and Sparks.

So I think if you ask some on this board he's doing great but might need some work. I'm just so over the mental gymnastics that some do to find a reason to support him. I was one of them earlier this season. But it is OK to say he's a great man, just didn't work out as our coach.

I would guess Dolson is happy today because he's not getting 500 emails. So hopefully he's working on the next coach or raising money. 

[Home Jersey 6,579]

12 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Look, this response from you and others says a lot. I mean a lot about a lack of understanding of team dynamics. It is also coming through that you are done and that is fine but everything is being twisted to support that argument now. Nothing will sway you. What if the players came out and told you point blank that was a huge reason for their effort changing and not having him while relying on Cupps to be a leader has been tough. 

Is X a word beater… nope. In an off injury all year, rusty as hell, not great last night etc. 

However, there was genuine excitement to get a leader back on the floor. This is seen in sports all the damn time. One guy who fans don’t think is important, goes down, and whole team folds. They have missed him dearly as a leader on the floor. This is a very young team and they don’t look at Cupps like they look at X. Cupps also has a lot of pressure taken off, less minutes to play etc with him back.

You can all say I am a know it all etc but what is this response from you? You and others acting like they know it all too. 

As some one who has played, a child play at a high level,  seen this exact scenario play out before with teams personally, lived it, yeah, I do know a little about it.

You are all correct, it has nothing to do with X because his +\- stats and his turnovers, etc If was pure coincidence they played harder than they have in a long time. I don’t know, maybe since Iowa? Where he played as well.

It is not in any way crazy to think this team is right on bubble line with X or in. Not at all. 

before anyone says yeah but first of year we sucked too. Yeah, we have a ton of new and young players. Woody was playing deep bench and X was still getting back to playing. That is hard to do and always takes athletes multiple games to get back to true form. 

The mere presence of a leader on the floor and dressed makes all world of difference.

I don't think anyone disputes that guys on a team play hard for their captain/team leaders and miss them when they're out. 

So Cupps isn't looked at the same way as X and that's why the team didn't play well or didn't play hard? There's no excuse for not playing hard. Not playing well... sure that's a valid argument, Cupps was asked to do too much as a freshman. Whose fault is that? 

So with X back, we may be a bubble team or sneak in as a low seed at best? That's "IUBB at it's best"? 

Beating a p00py Wiscy team late in the year is too little too late, it doesn't necessarily speak to the team rallying around a leader or a coach. Is it so hard to believe a basketball team just wanted to win in front of the home crowd and pulled it out (with a little help from a bizarre alarm stemming a run and less foul trouble than usual)? 

Everyone at this point has made their mind up, that much is clear..... it doesn't mean anyone lacks understanding of team dynamics. It just means someone is convinced they're right and clinging to any rationale, despite what we see every game day and an 8 game losing streak. Sure a million things could've happened differently, but they happened the way they did. And recruiting is abysmal. 

We can agree to disagree on what's best for the program... but acting like others who interpret things differently than you, MUST be forming their opinion with no factual basis/deep understanding, is why you get the reactions you do. 

[Hornsby 1,651]

Never seen this board so upset over a win lol. I live up here in Madison, and I had to watch them smack us in person so I really appreciate the team pulling together for that one
I've said from the beginning that Woody only needs to give the AD a reason not to fire him. They don't wanna go through the money, donors, BoT, but they need something to build a narrative on.  I think as of now, he has flipped the odds once again in his favor. It's not quite over, 0-4 still gets him fired imo but I think 1 more win puts it at 50/50, 2 more makes him likely safe. I said the same thing about Tom Allen. He had it when he beat Wisconsin, but couldn't pull out any of the last 3. No matter what, I expect a staff shake-up this offseason. 
One way or another I don't see the Woody tenure lasting past next year anyway, all his buyout leverage will be gone, he will still lack recruiting momentum, and he will be 67. I will be really upset about losing another great in-state class to Purdue and having to watch another year of this system but I'm confident we at least won't be as bad as this year.  
Another year isn't ideal, but I will still hold out hope. There will still be young, promising coaches whose dream job is IU in a year.  The major risk is Dusty taking OSU or another P5 job, meaning if we wanted him in 1 year we would have to pay a massive buyout. I still think he would leave any job for us, but it certainly makes it more difficult. Shrews has now won 4 of 5 and has the sixth-youngest team in the country playing top 30 defense. They will be competitive next year. So one more year won't kill the program or our chance of finding a good coach. But I guess we will see how the final games play out

Amazing we are at a point where one or two wins determine if this clown show continues or not. Man I hope that's not the case. Wisconsin is a bad team it's not like he beat kansas.

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[SamIam 646]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

So if you were the AD you would sit him down and say Woody I was going to fire you if you went 0-7 but since you beat Wisconsin to go 1-6 you get next year you lucky dog. 

If this is our thinking I now realize why we haven't been very good in the last 25 years

If I'm the AD, I would have never hired Woodson and I would move on now.

But we are all being naive if we ignore that there are university politics at play here. If you're the AD at IU, your job is tied to your basketball coaching hires. So if it's me, I'm going out and hitching my wagon to someone I believe in. But if I'm the AD I also understand that I am a state employee who cannot spend 10+ million easily, much less twice in a year, and whose job is dependent on good relationships with donors and my bosses on the BoT, both of which could potentially be jeopardized by firing Woodson. I get money hasn't always been the issue but it's bigger than that, no University administrator wants the microscope that comes with 2 buyouts in a year. Dolson is working uphill here, he won't put himself out on a 12 Million dollar limb against Woody's supporters unless the clear upgrade is in hand or things get so bad that he has overwhelming support for a move. 

[Chris007 43,565]

Just now, SamIam said:

If I'm the AD, I would have never hired Woodson and I would move on now.

But we are all being naive if we ignore that there are university politics at play here. If you're the AD at IU, your job is tied to your basketball coaching hires. So if it's me, I'm going out and hitching my wagon to someone I believe in. But if I'm the AD I also understand that I am a state employee who cannot spend 10+ million easily, much less twice in a year, and whose job is dependent on good relationships with donors and my bosses on the BoT, both of which could potentially be jeopardized by firing Woodson. I get money hasn't always been the issue but it's bigger than that, no University administrator wants the microscope that comes with 2 buyouts in a year. Dolson is working uphill here, he won't put himself out on a 12 Million dollar limb against Woody's supporters unless the clear upgrade is in hand or things get so bad that he has overwhelming support for a move. 

Now I totally agree with all of this. I was just trying to say that the win last night didn't move the needle one way or another. 

[cleeter 2,116]

14 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Number of our members want Dusty May.  Number of our members want a Pearl or Cronin, i.e., a coach who's cut his teeth at the highest level and for a number of years.  I'm ambivalent at the moment and probably reading the room incorrectly but IMO a Dusty May hire doesn't ignite the fan base -- the entire IU fan base and not just the btb fan base.  IMO he wouldn't be perceived as that big of a step up from Woody or Archie because he really doesn't have a track record.  It would be tantamount to a shoulder shrug.  Perception is everything and Dusty doesn't yet have that perception.  

Me, personally, i think next season is a make or break season. We get the hire right, then we keep the tradition we have, get back to where we all think we should be and get back going and most of all, reunite the fan base and prove that we (Indiana University) are here to win. To me that is Pearl. Proven winner and someone who has experience and would be able to reunite this fan base. Quickest fix to this downward spiral.

Would May be a bad hire? Don't know. It just seems that we can't take a unproven coach at this level and take that chance or risk. If we were to take that chance and it doesn't work out, then we become a team that "had an all time great coach once, but besides that, just some team in the midwest with a crazy delusional fan base who think they are better than what they are and living off the past". But if we did go this route and it worked out. Then we would all be happy for decades to come. But can this school, fan base, etc take the risk/reward here. 

*again, all just my thoughts. In no way am i speaking or wanting to speak for anyone else on here

[IUc2016 7,121]

7 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

We'll it was reported that he had to be told to start going to HS games to see recruits. He has missed several big-time AAU tournaments in the past couple of summers. Everyone knew we needed guards in the portal last offseason and he went with Walker and Sparks.

So I think if you ask some on this board he's doing great but might need some work. I'm just so over the mental gymnastics that some do to find a reason to support him. I was one of them earlier this season. But it is OK to say he's a great man, just didn't work out as our coach.

I would guess Dolson is happy today because he's not getting 500 emails. So hopefully he's working on the next coach or raising money. 

Yeah I guess that is what I was getting at. Him being told to go recruit was the first thing that came to mind.

Was just curious if you were hearing Dolson sees that side of it more so than the results on the court. 

[LamarCheeks 17,980]

16 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I think Scott has to look at it like this. This is his chance to put his stamp on the department he has always wanted to be in charge of since coming here in 84.

You get Cig & Pearl then you are a hero around here. If you get Cig and stick with Woodson for another year then you don't look so good and will reflect on you when you retire.

He probably doesn't like it but his legacy is also riding on this offseason. 

Do you think, though, that after Whitten said no to Fitzgerald for football, and apparently Beard had skeletons in his closet -- even before the arrest incident -- that that led us to not pursue him as a candidate when we hired Woody. And the past issues we had with Sampson (yes, I'm very aware his transgressions are no longer NCAA violations), that if it got that far down the pike, the administration would greenlight a Pearl hire. And before anybody chimes in, I know Pearl's violations were relatively minor (except the Person thing -- and that was failure to control your staff). But there is some baggage there. (And to the peanut gallery -- LOL -- please don't say everyone has baggage; I'm aware. I'm just wondering if Pearl would pass muster with the people who would have to approve such a hire). 

[Chris007 43,565]

20 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Number of our members want Dusty May.  Number of our members want a Pearl or Cronin, i.e., a coach who's cut his teeth at the highest level and for a number of years.  I'm ambivalent at the moment and probably reading the room incorrectly but IMO a Dusty May hire doesn't ignite the fan base -- the entire IU fan base and not just the btb fan base.  IMO he wouldn't be perceived as that big of a step up from Woody or Archie because he really doesn't have a track record.  It would be tantamount to a shoulder shrug.  Perception is everything and Dusty doesn't yet have that perception.  

Does this stance change if he goes to another sweet 16 this year? or another elite 8? or another final 4?

[Home Jersey 6,579]

3 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Does this stance change if he goes to another sweet 16 this year? or another elite 8? or another final 4?

I think it moves a little with a S16 and massively with an E8 or better. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart 83,854]

17 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

The mere presence of a leader on the floor and dressed makes all world of difference.

Your perception of a leader is markedly different than mine.  To me, a leader sets an example for others to follow.  The incident in Chicago, the incident with the car chase, the flagrant senseless fouls aren't examples I expect from a leader and I sure as hell wouldn't be singing his praises.

[Chris007 43,565]

1 minute ago, LamarCheeks said:

Do you think, though, that after Whitten said no to Fitzgerald for football, and apparently Beard had skeletons in his closet -- even before the arrest incident -- that that led us to not pursue him as a candidate when we hired Woody. And the past issues we had with Sampson (yes, I'm very aware his transgressions are no longer NCAA violations), that if it got that far down the pike, the administration would greenlight a Pearl hire. And before anybody chimes in, I know Pearl's violations were relatively minor (except the Person thing -- and that was failure to control your staff). But there is some baggage there. (And to the peanut gallery -- LOL -- please don't say everyone has baggage; I'm aware. I'm just wondering if Pearl would pass muster with the people who would have to approve such a hire). 

I think that is a great question. I would hope from learning from the Fitz situation that he went to Whitten and said I'm going to start talking to this guy, are you OK with that? Or this guy has shown interest is it ok if we start talking numbers?

I like the question and wish I knew the answer. It would save us all a lot of time talking on here LOL

[BlueDevil 8,655]

If Mike Woodson bought himself another year because of one measly win against a Wisconsin team in free fall then he was already coming back next year anyway. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart 83,854]

5 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Does this stance change if he goes to another sweet 16 this year? or another elite 8? or another final 4?

Sweet 16 - No      Marginally if he makes it further.

[cleeter 2,116]

8 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Does this stance change if he goes to another sweet 16 this year? or another elite 8? or another final 4?

To me it wouldn't, if and ONLY IF, Pearl was available and ready. Maybe even Drew. 
Would i be mad if we went with Dusty, no i wouldnt....if he was option C or D. 

[rcbowla 7,020]

Does this stance change if he goes to another sweet 16 this year? or another elite 8? or another final 4?

Absolutely should. I already like May as the 2nd/3rd option but if he gets to E8 or farther, then yes I believe becomes option #1b. Still believe Pearl is the sure thing but May has the most upside.

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[str8baller 5,040]

2 hours ago, JF87 said:

If Reneau is our 5, we are going to be a horrible defensive team next year.  Malik is a very good low post scorer, but he is not a good defender and not a rim protector.  imo, Reneau needs to be teamed with a stretch 5 and that person needs to be a rim protector.  

Defense is the easier side of the ball to teach quicker. And Reneau seems teachable.  
 

I’d wager that if you brought in a Tony Bennett, he could take some version of Cupps, Galloway, McNeely, Mbako, Malik, Newton, Banks, and two solid portal additions and have them a top 40 defensive team. Maybe better. Use the shooting of McNeely and Mbako around a automatic double team in Reneau and you should get a top 40 off eff team too. 
 

That’s a tourney team.