How far away is IUBB from being elite again?

[HoosierFan1994 4,726]

More I think about it...7 of the 13 scholarship players were first recruited to IU by the previous coach. Two of our 3 assistants were hired by him as well. Do we think that could be part of the problem? 2017-2021 was the worst 4 year stretch of IU basketball in a long time. I'm not saying Woody should've cleaned the house completely. But I feel when the majority of your players/coaches are from the previous staff two years removed...that's not a good thing. We still have no consistent shooter. 

[Golfman25 5,052]

7 hours ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

Not saying better uniforms beats Kansas today… saying IU taking care of the small things like uniforms is anecdotal to how elite programs are run… fix uniforms and we get better recruits? Maybe 18yr old kids esp those that are under privileged like myself at that age, free SWAG was a huge deal.

do you disagree? 

Disagree 100%.  It's an excuse.  A side show.  Players play.  

[Golfman25 5,052]

12 minutes ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

More I think about it...7 of the 13 scholarship players were first recruited to IU by the previous coach. Two of our 3 assistants were hired by him as well. Do we think that could be part of the problem? 2017-2021 was the worst 4 year stretch of IU basketball in a long time. I'm not saying Woody should've cleaned the house completely. But I feel when the majority of your players/coaches are from the previous staff two years removed...that's not a good thing. We still have no consistent shooter. 

That's called transition.  And so far, it's been a pretty good transition.  Going from the worst 4 year stretch of IU basketball to being in the Big10/National conversation is a positive.  Ok, they laid a turd the past two weeks.  They'll have to dig themselves out of that hole.  This is when we find out what these boys are made of.  

[Honkyman 1,670]

9 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

That's called transition. 

The problem is three of the last four games, IU has played like an Archie Miller team. The team is in disarray. They have a couple of easy games before the conference schedule gets underway in earnest. They open on the road against Iowa which is not a good place for this team to start. IU has five road games in January. Based on how we are playing now, we could lose all five except possibly Minnesota. It could be a long year unless they figure things out.

[Golfman25 5,052]

Define "Elite" -- a sustained period of success at a national level?   Unfortunately IU hasn't been there since the 2002 runner up finish.  And in 2008 they did the equivalent of the SMU football "dealth penalty."  SMU took 20 years before they consistently won more than 1-2 games/year.  And that's kind of where IU is right now.  

So how far away are we?  Well like it or not, Mike Woodson was the right hire -- a bridge to the past.  Bring back the winning culture of 30 years ago.  But culture change takes a long time.  As the Archie guys move on, and new kids come in, the culture changes.  So by that measure we are still several years away.  Can Woodson get us back to elite?  No clue.  One can only hope.  

[Golfman25 5,052]

2 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

The problem is three of the last four games, IU has played like an Archie Miller team. The team is in disarray. They have a couple of easy games before the conference schedule gets underway in earnest. They open on the road against Iowa which is not a good place for this team to start. IU has five road games in January. Based on how we are playing now, we could lose all five except possibly Minnesota. It could be a long year unless they figure things out.

I wouldn't say they are in disarray.  I would say they are "star struck."  They are intimidated, lack confidence.  However you want to put it.  They have gone from weak non-conference scheduling to playing 2 top 10 teams and 2 damn good teams.  We are better than the damn good teams, but have a ways to go to compete with the top 10 teams.  But fact is, right now, we lack elite talent and elite mentality.   Lack of consistent shooting, a big that is really on dimensional and not that big, etc.  We had plenty of opportunities at both AZ and KU, but couldn't put the ball in the ocean.  We used  to get kids like that Dick, now we hope and pray a shot goes in.  

[IU - Kaulie 1,891]

9 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Please read again, we’re not talking about TJD at IU. We’re talking about TJD at an elite program with a system in place. When you’re not pushed or forced in TJDs case you don’t develop to your potential.

TJD is comfortable and accepted at IU. He gets his stats, mostly on bad teams, and is good with that. He’s a great young man but he hasn’t been forced to be more than who he has been. Therefore, he hasn’t developed and he’s still playing college ball on a good but not great team.


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TJD owns that.  If he wanted to develop his game he has the resources and people to help him do that.  I used to hear talk about guys like Hulls, Dipo, Yogi, and others that you couldn’t keep them out of Cook Hall.  I have never heard that about TJD. Maybe that’s unfair or untrue but their is no evidence of it in his game.  Sure, guys like Dipo were pushed while he was here but he worked his tail off to get to where he wanted to be.

I don’t mean to bash TJD.  He has been a great student athlete.  He’s frustrating though. I hate that what I will remember most about him is how much he likes to flex against lesser opponents but against really good teams he doesn’t bring the same passion.  Their were too many times early in his career it didn’t look like he was always going hard and he’s not Romeo cool.  It’s still happening now.  He wasn’t going hard at the start of the Arizona game.  I didn’t get to watch the Kansas game that closely.  
 

This will never happen but I have saw some posts about changing the starting lineup.  Kopp gets mentioned a lot and I have seen Race get mentioned.  I would start with TJD.  If their is one guy to start the game that looks like he’s just playing and not competing it starts with him.  My guess is we will see a lot of flexing and raising the roof the next two games and then when the real games start we will be right back here.

I guess my point is I wished he was more of a leader.  I mean some guys just aren’t wired like that and that’s ok I just wish he was that guy because he’s been our best player but that’s not who he is.  That’s something we have been missing for a long time.

[IU Scott 2,375]

9 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Please read again, we’re not talking about TJD at IU. We’re talking about TJD at an elite program with a system in place. When you’re not pushed or forced in TJDs case you don’t develop to your potential.

TJD is comfortable and accepted at IU. He gets his stats, mostly on bad teams, and is good with that. He’s a great young man but he hasn’t been forced to be more than who he has been. Therefore, he hasn’t developed and he’s still playing college ball on a good but not great team.


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Woodson many times said he wants TJD to shoot the ball from outside. Been shown many times in the summer TJD working on his outside shot but he is hesitant to shoot it in the game.

[IU Scott 2,375]

9 hours ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

Not saying better uniforms beats Kansas today… saying IU taking care of the small things like uniforms is anecdotal to how elite programs are run… fix uniforms and we get better recruits? Maybe 18yr old kids esp those that are under privileged like myself at that age, free SWAG was a huge deal.

do you disagree? 

What is wrong with the uniforms 

[HoosierHoopster 6,854]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Woodson many times said he wants TJD to shoot the ball from outside. Been shown many times in the summer TJD working on his outside shot but he is hesitant to shoot it in the game.

I agree Scott Woodson made some statements like that -- but more recently we heard the feedback from NBA teams was they were not watching for his developing an outside shot, they were watching his post-play development, P&R, rim running, rebounding. I agree it could help the team if TJD were stepping outside now and then, but what's really going on here, imo, is that the team/staff are supposed to be aiming for more inside-out with Kopp and others (sometimes Bates, etc.) opening the floor with the outside shot while TJD works inside. We've definitely seen development in Race's outside game though, and as we seem to be limited on outside shooting against better teams, I'd like to see TJD step out now and then, but it just doesn't seem to be in the game plan.

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,982]

Where’s the trajectory? That should be the concern. This year was supposed to be the year. Next year, will clearly be some sort of a “rebuilding” phase unless our backups prove to be better than our starters. Which is possible maybe, but not likely. So I’m back to my concerns about next year, well this year to a degree, but next year especially. The big time recruits don’t start until 2024, 2025 assuming we can land them.

 

Then my concerns on coaching. I like Woody. I like the vibe. He’s clearly better than Archie. But I see very little X/O stuff that is impressive. He knows basketball. He knows good basketball, so I’d assume that’s a big advantage. Why do our guys always cower to pressure? Why don’t we see improved play?

 

What’s on the horizon? Next years team is going to lie in the hands of JHS, Gallo, Reneau, Bates. That isn’t good enough. Or could it be under the right coaching? Where’s the play hard, play smart?

 

I do think a Bindunga and the right transfer could keep us top 20 good. Just want to see better play out of our guys. Grady Dick clowned us yesterday as a Freshman. It needs to be our turn. I still propose our basketball IQ is terrible.

 

 

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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,623]

And you wanna be elite? Get kids who care to be on the floor. Everyone wants to put down Anthony Leals but guess what? I bet if he was on the floor he'd actually hustle and play like he cared. To slow? Funny, seems like something that's always said about Purdue players... And look who's better than us EVERY FREAKING YEAR. 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,947]

6 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

And you wanna be elite? Get kids who care to be on the floor. Everyone wants to put down Anthony Leals but guess what? I bet if he was on the floor he'd actually hustle and play like he cared. To slow? Funny, seems like something that's always said about Purdue players... And look who's better than us EVERY FREAKING YEAR. 

Anthony Leal is not the solution to our problems lol. He can’t play on this level. The solution is getting kids with talent who hustle and play hard . Too often our players are too cool for school and don’t like playing hard and doing the dirty work.

[Trish 11,506]

I’ve been critical on the Woodson hire from the day the search began, it’s never made sense to me. 
 

I don’t know if it’s exactly a coaching problem quite yet.. however there’s enough talent on this team to at the very least make the second weekend of the March. This team doesn’t look very promising as some thought, it looks right on par with what I expected. But there’s still plenty of basketball left and time for this team to improve. 
 

I will say this, Indiana won’t be elite again until there’s enough talent to play modern basketball. Indiana isn’t playing modern basketball, which is concerning coming from a head coach who has been in the NBA only.. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,623]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Anthony Leal is not the solution to our problems lol. He can’t play on this level. The solution is getting kids with talent who hustle and play hard . Too often our players are too cool for school and don’t like playing hard and doing the dirty work.

I didn't say he was the solution. But I'd rather see him out there hustling than anyone who decides they are too cool for it. 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,947]

9 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

I didn't say he was the solution. But I'd rather see him out there hustling than anyone who decides they are too cool for it. 

Eh I mean Woody did the “send a message” approach last year when he benched the guys at Northwestern, we lost, and it very nearly cost us a tournament berth. And it didn’t really ‘motivate’ the team either. We went 2-5 after the NU game to close out the regular season. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,854]

Re the OP, I really don't think we're far off from getting back to elite. We see the team melt under the pressure of 2 legitimate top 10 teams on a neutral and away floor (KU is typically dominant in the Phog and is playing extremely well) and suddenly we "suck," and we're years away from being elite. OK. We absolutely melted again KU, and I didn't like Woodson's game plan and continuing insistence to stick with and leave in the same group that wasn't matching up well and looked lifeless -- that is on Woodson -- and TJD's disappearing acts, at least offensively, are a problem (but people are ignoring he had what, at least 8 blocks in this game, and is an all-time IU great??), but once again we weren't fully healthy, with X leaving early, then this was JHS's first game back, and it was a tough road environment. Some of the same issues against Rutgers - we play finesse bigs against smash mouth bangers and we get our azzes kicked (also, imo, partly on Woodson for not adjusting to the team and style we're playing against). Against AZ, those Euro, running bigs are our kryptonite, we're good, but we just don't match up well against that team at this point.

We don't know how good we are yet this season, I think that's a fair statement. But we've seen signs of a team that's fully capable of a good tourney run this season - imo a SW16-level team, though probably not a FF team absent a nice bracket and some favorable draws. This team will do well in the B1G (imo), we're going to be in the NCAA tourney and probably make a decent run. So when are we going to be elite? Recruiting is key, but the guys already on the bench look competitive at that level in another year or so, Malik is going to be outstanding, JHS may well be here another season given his injury and slow start to this season (which is kind of a blessing for the team's outlook going forward), and current recruiting looks strong. I'd say another couple years is possible.

[Uspshoosier 45,245]

35 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Where’s the trajectory? That should be the concern. This year was supposed to be the year. Next year, will clearly be some sort of a “rebuilding” phase unless our backups prove to be better than our starters. Which is possible maybe, but not likely. So I’m back to my concerns about next year, well this year to a degree, but next year especially. The big time recruits don’t start until 2024, 2025 assuming we can land them.

 

Then my concerns on coaching. I like Woody. I like the vibe. He’s clearly better than Archie. But I see very little X/O stuff that is impressive. He knows basketball. He knows good basketball, so I’d assume that’s a big advantage. Why do our guys always cower to pressure? Why don’t we see improved play?

 

What’s on the horizon? Next years team is going to lie in the hands of JHS, Gallo, Reneau, Bates. That isn’t good enough. Or could it be under the right coaching? Where’s the play hard, play smart?

 

I do think a Bindunga and the right transfer could keep us top 20 good. Just want to see better play out of our guys. Grady Dick clowned us yesterday as a Freshman. It needs to be our turn. I still propose our basketball IQ is terrible.

 

 

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I would say the trajectory is still trending up from last year so far just not at the national title contender level some I guess thought was going to happen.   It would of been nice if IU was able to skip steps and all of a sudden become elite contenders with the same players that barely made the tourney last year but college basketball has a way of humbling teams that think that.     Of course there are programs that got it right and for whatever reason were able to skip some steps.    Unfortunately IU isn’t one of them.    2 things can be true.   Iu is on a trajectory to be better than they were last year by a wide margin and continue to move the program in the right direction.   IU is far off from where they need to be to be able to compete with programs that are in the conversation for 1 seeds.   Going to have grind to get where they want.   No skipping steps for this program 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,623]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Eh I mean Woody did the “send a message” approach last year when he benched the guys at Northwestern, we lost, and it very nearly cost us a tournament berth. 

That wasn't for playing like hot garbage though. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,854]

16 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

I would say the trajectory is still trending up from last year so far just not at the national title contender level some I guess thought was going to happen.   It would of been nice if IU was able to skip steps and all of a sudden become elite contenders with the same players that barely made the tourney last year but college basketball has a way of humbling teams that think that.     Of course there are programs that got it right and for whatever reason were able to skip some steps.    Unfortunately IU isn’t one of them.    2 things can be true.   Iu is on a trajectory to be better than they were last year by a wide margin and continue to move the program in the right direction.   IU is far off from where they need to be to be able to compete with programs that are in the conversation for 1 seeds.   Going to have grind to get where they want.   No skipping steps for this program 

Said this a lot better than I did, my post above is all over the place (maybe I need more coffee). Agree we're on a good trajectory, we're definitely improved from last season, but it's basically the same team with the addition of JHS and Ren, and the growth of some players (like Bates). 2 things can be true.

I am big on the direction of our recruiting, which also goes to heart -- we see strong 2-way players coming in, that is a big part of heart/fight. JHS/Ren are an outstanding base to work from. The one thing that somewhat concerns me is whether Woodson will show more flexibility in his game-planning and use of the guys on the bench. Flexibility, an ability to think outside the box, and floor imagination -- those are qualities you see in guys like Sampson, one of the better all-around coaches out there (purely from a bball standpoint). I like the Woodson hire, I like the trajectory, but I haven't seen a lot of that from him at least yet. I hope to see him making better in-game adjustments.