How far away is IUBB from being elite again?

[HoosierHoopster 6,838]

2 hours ago, IU - Kaulie said:

Send a message the next two games.

JHS

Gallo 

Kopp

Reneau

Geronimo

Extended  minutes for Gunn, Banks, and Duncomb.

Now this will never ever happen.

 

This I’d really like to see. Light a fire, stop just rolling out the same lineup and with extended minutes when they don’t show up or show real fight

[HoosierHoopster 6,838]

1 hour ago, Uspshoosier said:

Yes IU has the NIL funds.    I would be worried about the lack of wings in the class then I would have about the no bigs even with losing those 2.    Best teams in college usually have guards or wings as their best player.  In my opinion until IU’s best player is a guard or a wing they will continue to struggle with the upper tier teams 

Agree. Yogi, Hulls, Vic. Or I thomas. Or Calbert. Or Alford, etc. Need guys like a Cody but without the elite guards and strong wings very hard to run deep in March 

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,969]

This I’d really like to see. Light a fire, stop just rolling out the same lineup and with extended minutes when they don’t show up or show real fight

Fragile egos. True competitors, this lights a fire. Others, this shuts them down. What type of player do we have?

Then, the question becomes gameplan? When does gameplanning get the blame in these big games? The Arizona GP was awful. Kansas, who knows? Blown out by 10-2. Game was already over.

Maybe that’s when you call the timeout and empty the bench and get blown out by 20-30 with the subs. All game. Send a message during the game. Idk.


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[Bowhunter 2,693]

We need about 3 Jalen Hood Shifino’s to compete as a national title contender . Tough nosed guards that have a high basketball IQ and can fill it up from anywhere on the court. We need a true center help with rebounding and guarding the paint. 
 

[Southside 1,914]

25 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

There are two ways to do it.  A system team like Painter, or Wisconsin, or Stevens when at Butler, etc.  Or load and reload 5 starts a la Kentucky, etc.  Currently, IU doesn't have the appeal for the load and reload, and Woody isn't a system coach, at least on offense.  He needs to figure out how to bridge that gap, and soon.  

We need some success before we attain load/reload status IMO.

Until then, we need a guy that's an elite scorer, and solid support. So some luck in recruiting.. 

[Uspshoosier 45,156]

16 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I disagree and that’s fine, I’m happy to agree to disagree. I’ll accept being a relevant program. Hell, I’ll accept probably anything and still watch. An Elite program would be fun. I realize how hard it is and apparently at Indiana it’s especially hard. But numerous other programs have shown the right coach with a committed athletic department can make it happen. (Perennial top 25 team-stretching higher)

Based on our recruiting targets in 24 and 25 we seem to be trying. I think that includes the athletic department finally too. (Maybe?). Woodson, you’d assume with NBA talent can get it done, since that is his style and preference. Let’s get him NBA talent and see what happens.

Right now the team looks disjointed, disinterested , and generally not playing for each other. JHS jacks up a shot and misses. Guys hang their head back to the defensive end and sulk. Then the next guy tries a 1 on 1 move next possession, rinse and repeat. Coach has some work to do.


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What are we agreeing to disagree on?

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,969]

What are we agreeing to disagree on?

That’s steps can’t be skipped to become elite. And that our trajectory is in line with improvement. Which I agree we are likely improved year 2 over year 1 but my projection is year 3 is a dropoff. By then recruiting momentum comes into play. Some could say it’s already in play as 2023 recruiting was incredibly underwhelming.

 

 

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[HoosierHoopster 6,838]

8 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Fragile egos. True competitors, this lights a fire. Others, this shuts them down. What type of player do we have?

Then, the question becomes gameplan? When does gameplanning get the blame in these big games? The Arizona GP was awful. Kansas, who knows? Blown out by 10-2. Game was already over.

Maybe that’s when you call the timeout and empty the bench and get blown out by 20-30 with the subs. All game. Send a message during the game. Idk.


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I don’t know our players so can’t really say but i’ve seen them play enough to see real competitors in most, but the slow starts are a concern and we look one dimensional, again, on offense. Double/triple team TJD and what happens? And Woodson is watching this and doesn’t make a change until we’re way down. That bothers me. So push the starters, make them re-earn those minutes (though Race showed up ag KU), but re-think how to adjust against teams like KU and Rutgers.

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

3 hours ago, IU - Kaulie said:

TJD owns that.  If he wanted to develop his game he has the resources and people to help him do that.  I used to hear talk about guys like Hulls, Dipo, Yogi, and others that you couldn’t keep them out of Cook Hall.  I have never heard that about TJD. Maybe that’s unfair or untrue but their is no evidence of it in his game.  Sure, guys like Dipo were pushed while he was here but he worked his tail off to get to where he wanted to be.

I don’t mean to bash TJD.  He has been a great student athlete.  He’s frustrating though. I hate that what I will remember most about him is how much he likes to flex against lesser opponents but against really good teams he doesn’t bring the same passion.  Their were too many times early in his career it didn’t look like he was always going hard and he’s not Romeo cool.  It’s still happening now.  He wasn’t going hard at the start of the Arizona game.  I didn’t get to watch the Kansas game that closely.  
 

This will never happen but I have saw some posts about changing the starting lineup.  Kopp gets mentioned a lot and I have seen Race get mentioned.  I would start with TJD.  If their is one guy to start the game that looks like he’s just playing and not competing it starts with him.  My guess is we will see a lot of flexing and raising the roof the next two games and then when the real games start we will be right back here.

I guess my point is I wished he was more of a leader.  I mean some guys just aren’t wired like that and that’s ok I just wish he was that guy because he’s been our best player but that’s not who he is.  That’s something we have been missing for a long time.

Some on here understand what I'm saying while others don't. Let me attempt to say it a different way.

Yes, a large part of that is on TJD. He decides his future by what he puts into his game. He is extremely talented, there is little doubt about that. His attitude, since being at IU, has been more concerned about acceptance than winning. He talks about getting better but he defers to being part of the team at the level they are than lifting them up to his level. That is what I have been saying for years and that is a sign that he lacks leadership. I know others want to call it quiet leadership but it's not the leadership this team/program needs from its players.

My post placed TJD in a hypothetical of an elite program that has culture and leadership in place. TJD wouldn't be required to lead but have upperclassmen and like/better talent that would force him to get in the gym. Thus, for him to be "accepted" in that program he would have had to have worked his backside off and develop. That most likely would have led TJD to be out of college by now and playing pro ball.

I hope everyone gets to experience both environments. When you get in the environment where good isn't good enough you'll run or raise your abilities to that level.You can be a lot more than you ever thought you could be.

[Golfman25 5,030]

23 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Fragile egos. True competitors, this lights a fire. Others, this shuts them down. What type of player do we have?

Then, the question becomes gameplan? When does gameplanning get the blame in these big games? The Arizona GP was awful. Kansas, who knows? Blown out by 10-2. Game was already over.

Maybe that’s when you call the timeout and empty the bench and get blown out by 20-30 with the subs. All game. Send a message during the game. Idk.


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That’s the old Mike Tyson rule — everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.  KU came out and punched us in the face in the first few mins. 

[TheWatShot 13,658]

2 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

Hard to tell how next year will project.   Might be a breath of fresh air to move on from players that have been in this IU culture for as long as they have been.   Might make kids have to step up and for the coaches to step up and not rely on players they think are not replaceable.   Many ways to improve a program let’s see if IU becomes one of those programs or if they still in the middle to the bottom of the B1G 

This is why I'm cautiously optimistic for next season and beyond. This fanbase hates change, and in some ways, I think some of our fans have become too attached to some of these guys to see us potentially getting better with different players. 

[Golfman25 5,030]

26 minutes ago, Bowhunter said:

We need about 3 Jalen Hood Shifino’s to compete as a national title contender . Tough nosed guards that have a high basketball IQ and can fill it up from anywhere on the court. We need a true center help with rebounding and guarding the paint. 
 

What I have been seeing is JHS is really our only “elite level” player right now. He seems so much faster and a step ahead of everyone else.  He brings the ball up fast and with a purpose.  Problem is he’s frequently waiting on the others to catch up. 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

3 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Where’s the trajectory? That should be the concern. This year was supposed to be the year. Next year, will clearly be some sort of a “rebuilding” phase unless our backups prove to be better than our starters. Which is possible maybe, but not likely. So I’m back to my concerns about next year, well this year to a degree, but next year especially. The big time recruits don’t start until 2024, 2025 assuming we can land them.

 

Then my concerns on coaching. I like Woody. I like the vibe. He’s clearly better than Archie. But I see very little X/O stuff that is impressive. He knows basketball. He knows good basketball, so I’d assume that’s a big advantage. Why do our guys always cower to pressure? Why don’t we see improved play?

 

What’s on the horizon? Next years team is going to lie in the hands of JHS, Gallo, Reneau, Bates. That isn’t good enough. Or could it be under the right coaching? Where’s the play hard, play smart?

 

I do think a Bindunga and the right transfer could keep us top 20 good. Just want to see better play out of our guys. Grady Dick clowned us yesterday as a Freshman. It needs to be our turn. I still propose our basketball IQ is terrible.

 

 

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Huge difference between knowing good/great basketball and putting all the pieces in place and coaching them up. We don't play intelligent basketball, e and e is too often optional, and we lack leadership/culture. DD's comment doesn't sit well with me because it feels like there is more to that story than what we know.

[Uspshoosier 45,156]

11 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

That’s steps can’t be skipped to become elite. And that our trajectory is in line with improvement. Which I agree we are likely improved year 2 over year 1 but my projection is year 3 is a dropoff. By then recruiting momentum comes into play. Some could say it’s already in play as 2023 recruiting was incredibly underwhelming.

 

 

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Which schools in your opinion skipped steps to be elite?   Good convo by the way 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

2 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

Yes IU has the NIL funds.    I would be worried about the lack of wings in the class then I would have about the no bigs even with losing those 2.    Best teams in college usually have guards or wings as their best player.  In my opinion until IU’s best player is a guard or a wing they will continue to struggle with the upper tier teams 

Until our leader is our best player or vice versa, regardless of position, we'll be at this level at best. Give me a team full of alpha dogs that hate losing.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,621]

14 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Which schools in your opinion skipped steps to be elite?   Good convo by the way 

Villanova... Not really their doing though. 

[IU Scott 2,375]

4 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Villanova... Not really their doing though. 

That isn't true, just look at Wright's first 6-7 years and you don't see elite.

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Pointing to stats that cause a big part of our defensive rebounding issues in a game where the player was just kind of there for much of it? That's been a problem for several years now. What's the saying? Someone has to get the stats on a bad team? Same can be said about a performance that resembles what was left in the toilet on Crean's in home recruiting visit.

[Uspshoosier 45,156]

16 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Villanova... Not really their doing though. 

They had growing pains before they became full elite status.    I used to pick against Nova every year despite their seed because they always had early round exits until they didn’t.   

[Golfman25 5,030]

20 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Villanova... Not really their doing though. 

Nova has been a solid program since the 1980s.  Very few down years.  Only four loosing records in that time. Too many 20 win seasons to count.  Have really stepped it up the last several years from that base.  Just shows how devastating the Sampson debacle was.  Absolutely killed the program.