IUBB @ Michigan State - 02/12/22 @ 3:30 on Fox-TV

[MikeRoberts 7,996]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Galloway got the opportunity to start that you’ve been clamoring for and he played really poorly. Missed all six of his shots. They really weren’t even close. Wasn’t paying enough attention to see if his form looked pretty, though. He’s a player, especially at this point, that you want playing 15-20 minutes of energy a game off the bench. If he’s playing 30+ mpg you’re in trouble. He’s not that guy. 

Galloway is the ultimate glue guy/good teammate on a good team. The problem is IU isn’t a good team and he is forced to try to do too much.

 

 

 

[Alford Bailey 13,233]

Galloway will be the bellwether for this team over the next couple years. If he plays lots of minutes our guards suck. Similar to Al Durham the last 4 years.

[Southside 1,914]

32 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

We will continue to struggle shooting as long as we continue to play this style of offense. The offense consists of one guy trying to get it inside AMD the other 4 standing and watching. 
 

it’s putrid, Archie level stuff.

Nah. We have 3 new starters that didn't play for IU last year, and none of them are scoring threats. 

The 4th starter who has PT at IU, is not a top 100, or even a top 25 guy at position. 

What is putrid is the talent level that exists right now. We have 3 guys that were recruited to IU and are top 100 rated. One is TJD. One is Lander. One is Bates. Two Gs and a 5 that's really a tweener.

Not saying you need KY's class every year. But at least you need some decent guys in the same system for a few years like PU....

[MikeRoberts 7,996]

5 minutes ago, Southside said:

Nah. We have 3 new starters that didn't play for IU last year, and none of them are scoring threats. 

The 4th starter who has PT at IU, is not a top 100, or even a top 25 guy at position. 

What is putrid is the talent level that exists right now. We have 3 guys that were recruited to IU and are top 100 rated. One is TJD. One is Lander. One is Bates. Two Gs and a 5 that's really a tweener.

Not saying you need KY's class every year. But at least you need some decent guys in the same system for a few years like PU....

This is not accurate. Compare our players rankings to other teams in the bigten, we’re right there.

the problem is us getting complementary pieces that work together, developing talent and getting guys that put in the heart and soul

 

and coaching 

[Southside 1,914]

25 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

This is not accurate. Compare our players rankings to other teams in the bigten, we’re right there.

the problem is us getting complementary pieces that work together, developing talent and getting guys that put in the heart and soul

 

and coaching 

it's 

the

first 

year

in 

Woody's system... 

 

And he was late to the recruiting game.... 

 

And with 3 new starters that never played for IU>>>>

How much development do your really expect lol....

Sorry, PU had two top 100 guys in this year's class alone. MSU had 3. Michigan had 4 top 50, not top 100 lo....

We were 7th in recruiting this year... in the B10... 

In short, you're incredibly wrong lol

[DChoosier 9,854]

46 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

This is not accurate. Compare our players rankings to other teams in the bigten, we’re right there.

the problem is us getting complementary pieces that work together, developing talent and getting guys that put in the heart and soul

 

and coaching 

Composite 247 rankings of our 5 starters today.

TJD 30, Kopp 115, Race 134, Galloway 157 and X 232 (all 5 of MSU’s starters were rated higher than Kopp, our second highest recruit). Stewart usually starts and he was 273rd. Not disagreeing with your comment about developing guys etc but I agree with Southside that our talent level is on the light side.

We go on and on, with good reason, about RMK’s teams but his best teams were nearly always loaded    (The early 90’s teams, as an example, had 4-5 burger boys).  We need guys that individually posses multiple offensive skills, especially among the guards and wings.

[RaceToTheTop 31,341]

25 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

Composite 247 rankings of our 5 starters today.

TJD 30, Kopp 115, Race 134, Galloway 157 and X 232 (all 5 of MSU’s starters were rated higher than Kopp, our second highest recruit). Stewart usually starts and he was 273rd. Not disagreeing with your comment about developing guys etc but I agree with Southside that our talent level is on the light side.

We go on and on, with good reason, about RMK’s teams but his best teams were nearly always loaded    (The early 90’s teams, as an example, had 4-5 burger boys).  We need guys that individually posses multiple offensive skills, especially among the guards and wings.

I get your point (although Race I believe was a top 100 player in his class and then reclassified).  We do have two high ranked players on our bench but one we’ve pretty much written off and the other has been struggling.

[Hoosierfan2017 25,078]

7 hours ago, DChoosier said:

Composite 247 rankings of our 5 starters today.

TJD 30, Kopp 115, Race 134, Galloway 157 and X 232 (all 5 of MSU’s starters were rated higher than Kopp, our second highest recruit). Stewart usually starts and he was 273rd. Not disagreeing with your comment about developing guys etc but I agree with Southside that our talent level is on the light side.

We go on and on, with good reason, about RMK’s teams but his best teams were nearly always loaded    (The early 90’s teams, as an example, had 4-5 burger boys).  We need guys that individually posses multiple offensive skills, especially among the guards and wings.

We have two guards on our bench who were top 30 recruits, and we have a big on the bench who was a top 75 recruit. Race was top 75 in his class before he reclassified. Geronimo was 105th in his class and Kopp was 115th in his class. 

Here are the conference rankings for our last four classes:

2018 - 2nd

2019 - 6th

2020 - 2nd

2021 - 7th 

Averages out to just over 4th in the conference during that span. 

Our conference finishes during that span:

2018/2019 - 8th

2019/2020 - 10th

2020/2021 - 10th 

2021/2022 - 8th

We don’t recruit at a high enough level right now to be competing for national championships but there’s no reason we can’t be a top 5 team in the conference. We underperform our recruiting. Our problem is that we recruit players who end up underperforming their rankings. In 2018 we chose Hunter and Anderson over Aaron Henry, and Henry happened to be by far the best player of the 3. Lander hasn’t lived up to his 5 star ranking. Duncomb can’t get off the bench. Bates had a good game yesterday but before that he was really struggling. I don’t know if it’s a development issue, an over ranking issue, or a combination of both, but in the conference we finish at a worse level than we recruit at. 

[MikeRoberts 7,996]

43 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

We have two guards on our bench who were top 30 recruits, and we have a big on the bench who was a top 75 recruit. Race was top 75 in his class before he reclassified. Geronimo was 105th in his class and Kopp was 115th in his class. 

Here are the conference rankings for our last four classes:

2018 - 2nd

2019 - 6th

2020 - 2nd

2021 - 7th 

Averages out to just over 4th in the conference during that span. 

Our conference finishes during that span:

2018/2019 - 8th

2019/2020 - 10th

2020/2021 - 10th 

2021/2022 - 8th

We don’t recruit at a high enough level right now to be competing for national championships but there’s no reason we can’t be a top 5 team in the conference. We underperform our recruiting. Our problem is that we recruit players who end up underperforming their rankings. In 2018 we chose Hunter and Anderson over Aaron Henry, and Henry happened to be by far the best player of the 3. Lander hasn’t lived up to his 5 star ranking. Duncomb can’t get off the bench. Bates had a good game yesterday but before that he was really struggling. I don’t know if it’s a development issue, an over ranking issue, or a combination of both, but in the conference we finish at a worse level than we recruit at. 

Thank you for doing the work to prove my point. The “talent level” of our roster is mostly on par with that of many of the better teams in the bigten. 
it’s all of the other things that have ailed us as a program. 
getting pieces that don’t work together, not developing the players we have, transfers, coaching schemes that don’t work…

those are all bigger issues than the overall talent of our rosters. 

[IUFAN1976 4,320]

10 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Wasn't P Stew not even practicing with them for a stretch last season. You want to place him on a list with Archie because he practiced with him and not on a list where he has practiced and played for that coach? That's odd.

Let's not start this twisting the narrative. It's not 2008 all over again. It's 2022 where there were like 600 free agents in college basketball. We were stoked Woody and Co. were able to identify 'talent' and land them quickly. Now that they're not producing we want to blame someone else.

These issues aren't anything new. They've been there all year. The difference is we're facing better competition and it's not working. We had a summer trip with extra practices. We had a noncon in the 300+ range to figure these things out. We were happy that we were winning while not fixing these issues.

What's going to change next season? Will our returners all of a sudden start caring and play with e and e? Who is being groomed to be a leader? Who's going to drag their teammates into the gym over the summer to get better?

I see your point but the only thing I am saying these players developed some of these habits under the previous coaching regime, I think we’ve got to give CMW and staff time to teach them good habits.  I really feel these things will eventually get fixed, it will take some time.  
 

I can see a guy like TJD have a ball rack on each side, grabbing the balls as fast as possible like he’s on a timer to practice his free throws until he gets to 100 shots, instead of trying to practice a routine, no matter how long it takes to reach a certain percentage.  I am just hypothetically thinking.  Bad habits, no matter what they are, are hard to undo and I think these players don’t look at shooting free throws as fun, stylish, and important. I think they feel it is a chore and something they have to do.  If TJD worked on free throws as hard as he dunks, he would be shooting 80%, lol.

[IUFAN1976 4,320]

11 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Okay, let's think this through.

TJD leaves and we replace him with... Durr? Duncomb?

We then have perimeter players who can't shoot (P Stew gone) and aren't really beating anyone off the dribble (X does sometimes, Gallo is probably the next most consistent player.)

What is our offense?

Teams can press up without fear of really getting beat and if they do who is the big or big wing that is going to make them pay in the lane?

Teams sag off because we can't shoot and we don't have anyone in the paint that can score.

We lack a dynamic approach because of the scheme. Losing a post is going to somehow make us more dynamic, changing the scheme and attacking from multiple levels will make us a more dynamic offense. It's too late in the season to make drastic changes but you'd think a good coach could get a little movement when the ball goes into the post.

 

I didn’t use the word dynamic, you did.  I just think we’ll have more motion.  I just think TJD is very limited offensively because he can’t or doesn’t shoot more than 3 feet away from the basket and it just slows down the offense.  Yes, CMW should have fixed it, but I still think guys would stand around even if he did.  I think they are waiting for him to make a move and he doesn’t seem to make it fast enough.

[IUFAN1976 4,320]

10 hours ago, Southside said:

He's good, very good, just forced to develop and play based purely on our lack of talent in places lol... 

Classic tweener. Had we had a true and established 5 when he got here, I think things might be different for him. He may have been brought along more slowly..... It is what it is though. 

Not sure we'll be much better once he's gone though. If we can find better outside shooters, then yes, maybe. Right now our outside shooting sucks. We have zero go-to guys on O except for TJD. That's not his fault. And those guys don't necessarily get better when he leaves lol.  

I agree, he is probably the only go to guy we have but I think Race has gotten closer.  Our guard play does suck but I think Bates will greatly improve next year.  I am hoping Galloway improves his outside shot but it’s so ugly, I don’t see it.  I just think when the ball goes into the post, guys stand around too much.  Yes, CMW and staff should have fixed that but they haven’t.  
 

Kopp has truly been a big disappointment and Stewart hasn’t been as good as what some of us thought he would be and X is bi-polar of a player.  I think because of that, this team may have reached it’s ceiling, which isn’t good 

[MikeRoberts 7,996]

6 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

I didn’t use the word dynamic, you did.  I just think we’ll have more motion.  I just think TJD is very limited offensively because he can’t or doesn’t shoot more than 3 feet away from the basket and it just slows down the offense.  Yes, CMW should have fixed it, but I still think guys would stand around even if he did.  I think they are waiting for him to make a move and he doesn’t seem to make it fast enough.

Inserting myself into your back and forth if I may.

I don’t blame Woodson for TJD not developing a shot, that doesn’t happen quickly for a guy that has never made any real progress there. 
What I do blame coach for is everything else around him that is teachable and enforceable. There is no reason that when TJD gets the ball, the other 4 players stand still. There is zero deception and therefore it’s easy to prepare for and easy to defend against. We don’t get as much out of that situation as we should. They bring two defenders to him and yet nobody else is open, that math doesn’t mKe sense

[DWB 1,098]

6 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

I don’t blame Woodson for TJD not developing a shot, that doesn’t happen quickly for a guy that has never made any real progress there. 
What I do blame coach for is everything else around him that is teachable and enforceable. 

I think Woodson & the coaching staff are "a little" to blame for not developing TJD's shot and free throws. His FT form is robotic and not fluid at all. He never gets his legs into it, and just "throws" it up there, with hardly any arc. And 90% of the time the FT's are long. Corrections are teachable. But TJD has to put in the work and gain confidence in making the changes. Same goes for his "outside shot"

[IUFAN1976 4,320]

13 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

Inserting myself into your back and forth if I may.

I don’t blame Woodson for TJD not developing a shot, that doesn’t happen quickly for a guy that has never made any real progress there. 
What I do blame coach for is everything else around him that is teachable and enforceable. There is no reason that when TJD gets the ball, the other 4 players stand still. There is zero deception and therefore it’s easy to prepare for and easy to defend against. We don’t get as much out of that situation as we should. They bring two defenders to him and yet nobody else is open, that math doesn’t mKe sense

I 100% agree.  The lack of movement is perplexing and even when there movement, there isn’t any sharp cutting or setting up your defender to move off a screen.  
I watched Bates pass the ball down to TJD in the post, he made a cut down the lane and it was a slow methodical movement that was useless.  It wasn’t made with purpose, quick, or any type of deception.  It was like he was doing it because he was supposed to, more like memorization, IMO!

 

[Hovadipo 61,552]

21 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

There is no reason that when TJD gets the ball, the other 4 players stand still. There is zero deception and therefore it’s easy to prepare for and easy to defend against. We don’t get as much out of that situation as we should. They bring two defenders to him and yet nobody else is open, that math doesn’t mKe sense

TJD got noticeably frustrated by this yesterday. Like, palming ball in one hand and throwing up his other hand in frustration while posting up frustrated. Not sure if that’s been brought up here or not, but you couldn’t miss it. Happened sometime in the 2nd half for sure. 

[IUFAN1976 4,320]

12 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

TJD got noticeably frustrated by this yesterday. Like, palming ball in one hand and throwing up his other hand in frustration while posting up frustrated. Not sure if that’s been brought up here or not, but you couldn’t miss it. Happened sometime in the 2nd half for sure. 

That may have been when Bates cut through the lane very slowly and brought his defender with him and I think he was frustrated by that.

[TheWatShot 15,547]

7 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

That may have been when Bates cut through the lane very slowly and brought his defender with him and I think he was frustrated by that.

I distinctly remember a sequence in the Wisconsin game where this happened and Race cut through the lane while weakly throwing up his hands to call for the ball. I have no idea why we keep doing this. 

[MikeRoberts 7,996]

27 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

TJD got noticeably frustrated by this yesterday. Like, palming ball in one hand and throwing up his other hand in frustration while posting up frustrated. Not sure if that’s been brought up here or not, but you couldn’t miss it. Happened sometime in the 2nd half for sure. 

He’s likely a nicer guy than me but if I’m him and that kept happening I would have called a timeout from the post position and chewed out my teammates. We need a little of that fire and coaching on the court

[MikeRoberts 7,996]

7 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

I distinctly remember a sequence in the Wisconsin game where this happened and Race cut through the lane while weakly throwing up his hands to call for the ball. I have no idea why we keep doing this. 

Because it is “kinda” the right play but is only effective if done right and with a purpose but detrimental if done otherwise.

if you can run off a pick and leave your man in the dust for an easy dunk that’s awesome. I see other teams do that well.

unfortunately our players don’t move well and screen well so if they do make a move to the basket it is usually too slow and with a defender right on their hip and clogging the lane