Negativity Thread

[Josh]

5 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Last week I was at work during the game. Recorded the game. Got told how bad it was by multiple customers and my phone had about messages about how terrible it was. Knowing how bad it was I still watched the recording. Lol. What other choice do we really have? In for the long haul good or bad.

 

 

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They got me hooked as well.  You and I may disagree about the cause of our team's underwhelming play, but we're in this for the long haul together brother.  Cheers

[Maedhros]

1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

Crean's 3rd year, Indiana was 12-20.  Archie's 3rd year will be significantly better.  Apples and oranges.  Archie has more top 25 wins in his first three years than Crean had in his first 5.   The two are not comparable, but to believe Archie had even close to a full deck when he got to IU is ridiculous.  Zach McRoberts played the 5th most minutes on his first team.   That should be enough for anyone to understand.

Zach McRoberts was a DI scholarship caliber player, holding down 20 minutes per game as a freshman for a Vermont team that finished 123 on KenPom that year.

Archie's first team opened that season getting run at home by the team ranked 199, got run at home again a month later by the team ranked 153, and closed the season with a loss to the team ranked 135. They were never going to be world beaters, but it's okay to think Archie's first team had enough talent to be better than they were.

[Brass Cannon]

33 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Zach McRoberts was a DI scholarship caliber player, holding down 20 minutes per game as a freshman for a Vermont team that finished 123 on KenPom that year.

Archie's first team opened that season getting run at home by the team ranked 199, got run at home again a month later by the team ranked 153, and closed the season with a loss to the team ranked 135. They were never going to be world beaters, but it's okay to think Archie's first team had enough talent to be better than they were.

Just because they lost doesn’t mean they had so little talent that those losses were expected or ok. Those losses kept him out of the NIT 

[bigrod]

Well, would you just go right on ahead and do the things your employer told you not to do and expect to keep your job after so much of that?

Also, if you want him to devote >50% of practices to shooting, he could. But then we’d find something else for which to blame him 100%. Think about it. When a player goes to the gym on his own time, what does he work? Offense. Dribble moves (hopefully more actual ball handling drills) and shooting. They don’t work defensive fundamentals. They don’t do rebounding drills. They can get extra shots up any other (free) time of day. The question is, did/are they? I haven’t been to practices. I have no idea hope he runs them. Maybe there IS a little more time that can be given to shooting. But people act like Miller should be going to the gym FOR them half the time.


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In this case, yes I would. Think about what you are saying. This isn’t some guy with a job down at the quarry. This is a very public job. If my employer was not allowing me to fully do my job in this case, yes, I would dare them to fire me.

As far as the rest of it, let’s just go with the coincidence theory. I guess it’s just a coincidence that the team can no longer shoot jump shots or free throws. Has nothing at all to do with the offense or coaching.


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[coonhounds]

In this case, yes I would. Think about what you are saying. This isn’t some guy with a job down at the quarry. This is a very public job. If my employer was not allowing me to fully do my job in this case, yes, I would dare them to fire me.

As far as the rest of it, let’s just go with the coincidence theory. I guess it’s just a coincidence that the team can no longer shoot jump shots or free throws. Has nothing at all to do with the offense or coaching.


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Not to mention the dude has a guaranteed salary and facing the fact that losing equals firing lol. Yeah I would do whatever I thought necessary to win

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[coonhounds]

I won't post this in game thread or fun thread cause this is negative. I fe6we get our @$$ handed to us Saturday. Pu is on a roll and we are not. Also it just fits the archie era to seek all time lows. Praying I am wrong

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[DChoosier]

6 hours ago, Josh said:

Tom Crean had no scholarship players on the team he inherited.  Archie had two nba players on his first team.  You're right, there's no comparison

No scholarship players but you have to remember that Crean inherited  BOTH Kyle Tabor and Brett Finkelmeir each of which were far, far more talented that Robert Johnson and Juwan Morgan.

[Hoosierfan2017]

2 hours ago, coonhounds said:

Not to mention the dude has a guaranteed salary and facing the fact that losing equals firing lol. Yeah I would do whatever I thought necessary to win

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Yeah, if Archie got fired for going against the university he'd get paid millions to not work and/or get another job making millions. He's much more likely to get fired for performance anyway. 

[Old Friend]

17 hours ago, Honkyman said:

Old Friend should go run the IU sports public relations department. He does a much better job rationalizing poor coaching and uninspired play than anyone directly connected to the basketball team. 

The best part for me?  The same guys just LOVE everything critical of people they disagree with.  Posting stuff that pushes their buttons is like shooting fish in a barrel.   Alford-Bailey?  2017?  Chicken Sammich.  Josh.  Same guys.  Every time.  And they almost always respond.  Their likes are all for each other.    It'd be a great experiment sometime if anyone in some sociology class wanted to expound on the human condition or write a thesis on misery loving company.    

[Old Friend]

6 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

How many years do we have to wait before it's reasonable for us to expect the players to play with consistent effort? By year 4?

I have consistently said next season has to be the turning point.    So yes,  Year 4.  The team needs to jettison some players that still anchor it.  His recruits need to be upper classmen.  They need to be healthy.  The effort question is puzzling, but I also think there is far more to the story (including Archie's inability to handle things the way he'd like due to things beyond his control) than anybody knows.

[Hoosierfan2017]

1 minute ago, Old Friend said:

I have consistently said next season has to be the turning point.    So yes,  Year 4.  The team needs to jettison some players that still anchor it.  His recruits need to be upper classmen.  They need to be healthy.  The effort question is puzzling, but I also think there is far more to the story (including Archie's inability to handle things the way he'd like due to things beyond his control) than anybody knows.

I have also said that year 4 has to be the turning point. I have said that if we miss the tournament this season then Archie deserves to be on the hot seat going into season 4. I don't think the tournament is an unrealistic expectation to have. I've also held back on saying that Archie should be fired after this season, while others have said he should me, so it's a little odd that you come at me harder than the others. We probably agree on more IU basketball things than we disagree on.

[Old Friend]

6 hours ago, Josh said:

Tom Crean had no scholarship players on the team he inherited.  Archie had two nba players on his first team.  You're right, there's no comparison

Who are your NBA players on Archie's first team?  Morgan and.....who?  Juwon Morgan had to play out of position that season because Davis and Hartman  got hurt.  Zach McRoberts played the 5th most minutes on that team.  4 of the top 5 were guards, the 5th was Morgan, who was 6'7".  You want to try to win in the Big Ten with your best post player a natural "4" who's out of position, and your backup ends up being a JUCO transfer who couldn't make a jump shot into a dumpster?

You and your cronies do a GREAT job of ignoring the why and looking simply at the end result, regardless of circumstances.   That's very elementary, but at least you're consistent.  And Archie's first year, he won 16 games.  Crean won 6.  In Crean's 3rd year, he won 12 games with 2 NBA players including an all star.   Archie will likely win 19-21 before it's over.   What exactly is your point?  

You're the best I've ever seen at reaching.  This comparison leaves out so much of the truth, it's impossible to take seriously.  

[Brass Cannon]

9 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Who are your NBA players on Archie's first team?  Morgan and.....who?  Juwon Morgan had to play out of position that season because Davis and Hartman  got hurt.  Zach McRoberts played the 5th most minutes on that team.  4 of the top 5 were guards, the 5th was Morgan, who was 6'7".  You want to try to win in the Big Ten with your best post player a natural "4" who's out of position, and your backup ends up being a JUCO transfer who couldn't make a jump shot into a dumpster?

You and your cronies do a GREAT job of ignoring the why and looking simply at the end result, regardless of circumstances.   That's very elementary, but at least you're consistent.  And Archie's first year, he won 16 games.  Crean won 6.  In Crean's 3rd year, he won 12 games with 2 NBA players including an all star.   Archie will likely win 19-21 before it's over.   What exactly is your point?  

You're the best I've ever seen at reaching.  This comparison leaves out so much of the truth, it's impossible to take seriously.  

The why rarely matters. This is a results focused business.  Bryce Drew wasn’t saved because Garland got hurt. 
 

Tom Crean wasn’t saved by the hundreds of different excuses people came up with for him  

 

[Old Friend]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I have also said that year 4 has to be the turning point. I have said that if we miss the tournament this season then Archie deserves to be on the hot seat going into season 4. I don't think the tournament is an unrealistic expectation to have. I've also held back on saying that Archie should be fired after this season, while others have said he should me, so it's a little odd that you come at me harder than the others. We probably agree on more IU basketball things than we disagree on.

I'd say that's probably true, and I also think we'll make the NCAA tournament this season.   We only need 3-4 more wins.  4 and we're a lock, so I think that expectation will be met.   Very few teams will have records like Indiana had in its best seasons under Knight.   It's only February 6th, and just 5 teams have less than 3 losses.  Only TWO of those (Baylor and Auburn) from power conferences (Gonzaga, San Diego State, and Dayton are the other 3).  It's not like college basketball is conducive to teams dominating in power conferences.  WAY too many good players, now.  Indiana isn't yet "different."   I want IU to be different, and I've been wildly criticized for it around here.

I don't come at you any harder than you have come at me.  Some of the guys you seem to attract come across to me as clueless, agenda driven guys who don't know what they're talking about.   I don't feel that way about you necessarily, but I don't know that I've been harder on you than you have on me.

To me?  The roster matters.  Injuries matter.  Experience matters.  Chemistry matters.  Indiana lacks shooters.  Indiana lacks consistency.  But look for example at Hunter.  He was counted on a year ago coming into the season.  He goes out and never plays, only NOW getting healthy.  The eyeball test shows what that guy can be.   Phinisee has been hurt more than he's been healthy, but when healthy is a terrific on ball defender, capable finishing at the rim, and does  a decent job leading on the floor.  His turnovers have made me nuts this season, just like Green's always have.  I dunno', maybe I look forward differently than most, but a year from now, assuming everyone's back who should be, I see a whole lot of depth and enough shooters to play with about anybody.  Thus, I'm not gloom and doom when a still-imperfect team.   Next season?  Yep.  I'm with you.  Next season, Indiana needs to be a top 3 team in the Big Ten, and that needs to become a frequent spot for them.  NCAA tournament success will come if that happens. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Who are your NBA players on Archie's first team?  Morgan and.....who?  Juwon Morgan had to play out of position that season because Davis and Hartman  got hurt.  Zach McRoberts played the 5th most minutes on that team.  4 of the top 5 were guards, the 5th was Morgan, who was 6'7".  You want to try to win in the Big Ten with your best post player a natural "4" who's out of position, and your backup ends up being a JUCO transfer who couldn't make a jump shot into a dumpster?
You and your cronies do a GREAT job of ignoring the why and looking simply at the end result, regardless of circumstances.   That's very elementary, but at least you're consistent.  And Archie's first year, he won 16 games.  Crean won 6.  In Crean's 3rd year, he won 12 games with 2 NBA players including an all star.   Archie will likely win 19-21 before it's over.   What exactly is your point?  
You're the best I've ever seen at reaching.  This comparison leaves out so much of the truth, it's impossible to take seriously.  

If Archie didn’t have two NBA players in his first season, then who would be the 2nd outside of of Vic in Creans third season?


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[Old Friend]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

The why rarely matters. This is a results focused business.  Bryce Drew wasn’t saved because Garland got hurt. 
 

Tom Crean wasn’t saved by the hundreds of different excuses people came up with for him  

 

The why absolutely matters if you want to fire a guy in his 3rd season.  Crean had 9 seasons.  Archie's had 2 and a half.  What are you talking about, man?  Archie's results so far have very reasonable "why's."  They're not excuses...they're facts.  Why didn't IU win in his first year?  I dunno, maybe because Indiana had no front court beyond Morgan?    You think that doesn't matter?  YOU try winning with Josh Newkirk, DeVonte Green, Zach Mcroberts, and Freddie McSawin.  Morgan and Robert Johnson were our best players...and Morgan played out of position all year because we had nobody else.  You think that doesn't matter?   I disagree.

This is not a lifetime pass...it's a "let's be realistic and give it time" pass.  You don't fire a guy after 2-3 seasons when his recruits aren't even juniors yet.

[Old Friend]

2 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

If Archie didn’t have two NBA players in his first season, then who would be the 2nd outside of of Vic in Creans third season?


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If we count Morgan, we count Watford.  Otherwise, you're cherry picking and making points that really aren't relevant.  Morgan had an NBA cup of coffee, Watford has been G league; but Morgan has spent plenty of time in the G League, too.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

If we count Morgan, we count Watford.  Otherwise, you're cherry picking and making points that really aren't relevant.  Morgan had an NBA cup of coffee, Watford has been G league; but Morgan has spent plenty of time in the G League, too.

But Watford has never been on an NBA roster. Ever. But I mean I guess we will count Will Sheehey too then?


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

The why absolutely matters if you want to fire a guy in his 3rd season.  Crean had 9 seasons.  Archie's had 2 and a half.  What are you talking about, man?  Archie's results so far have very reasonable "why's."  They're not excuses...they're facts.  Why didn't IU win in his first year?  I dunno, maybe because Indiana had no front court beyond Morgan?    You think that doesn't matter?  YOU try winning with Josh Newkirk, DeVonte Green, Zach Mcroberts, and Freddie McSawin.  Morgan and Robert Johnson were our best players...and Morgan played out of position all year because we had nobody else.  You think that doesn't matter?   I disagree.
This is not a lifetime pass...it's a "let's be realistic and give it time" pass.  You don't fire a guy after 2-3 seasons when his recruits aren't even juniors yet.

That’s not an excuse to lose to Indiana State and IPFW at home by 20. Creans first team and even 2nd team had an excuse for that. Archie’s first did not. And the same problems continue to occur.


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[Old Friend]

4 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

That’s not an excuse to lose to Indiana State and IPFW at home by 20. Creans first team and even 2nd team had an excuse for that. Archie’s first did not. And the same problems continue to occur.


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So you're going to his first game as Indiana's coach?  When not one of his recruits was even on campus and no player had played a game in his system?     The same problems occurred this season?  Who is our bad loss this year?  I'll wait.    Dude, this is pathetic.  Even for you.  Living in the past and in hindsight is cheap.   Bob Knight had a team that lost to Pan American.  Thank God the administration didn't call you and ask your opinion.