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I will never understand why this board panders to certain people.......
Truth?  Indiana was 4-36 last night on shots that weren't layups.   Archie can do nothing about that.   Defensive effort and execution was more than good enough to win.  59 points on the road's a good showing by any measure.  4-36.  And many were open looks.
That's not all on Archie.  At all.

Well Archie could run an offense that does more than stand around. What offense is ran, is on Archie. Rutgers was 4-15 from 3 so they didn’t shoot much better than us there. Where they did was from 2 because they got soooo many easy shots at the rim. They were19-32 from inside the 3 compared to our 17-41. Our defense helped us lose.


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I will never understand why this board panders to certain people.......

Truth?  Indiana was 4-36 last night on shots that weren't layups.   Archie can do nothing about that.   Defensive effort and execution was more than good enough to win.  59 points on the road's a good showing by any measure.  4-36.  And many were open looks.

That's not all on Archie.  At all.

Recruit. Better. Players.

 

I know you love Franklin and Phinisee because they are Indiana guys or whatever but neither are special. Neither are up to the challenge.

 

Plenty of Freshman and Sophomore guards out there that are much better.

 

 

 

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Well Archie could run an offense that does more than stand around. What offense is ran, is on Archie. Rutgers was 4-15 from 3 so they didn’t shoot much better than us there. Where they did was from 2 because they got soooo many easy shots at the rim. They were19-32 from inside the 3 compared to our 17-41. Our defense helped us lose.


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....No, it didn’t. Our shooting did, just like you began to say in regards to our boring offense. You just got sidetracked in your haste to storm the castle. Our defense didn’t make us shoot 4/36 from outside the blocks.


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8 hours ago, Old Friend said:

I will never understand why this board panders to certain people.......

Truth?  Indiana was 4-36 last night on shots that weren't layups.   Archie can do nothing about that.   Defensive effort and execution was more than good enough to win.  59 points on the road's a good showing by any measure.  4-36.  And many were open looks.

That's not all on Archie.  At all.

Uhhh...he recruited almost all of the players who shot 4/36 outside of the paint.

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I get what some are saying about the players being responsible. I'm not saying it is all on Archie, but we have definitely seen a few trends in Archie's time here. You cannot deny that our shooting percentages in general and especially 3's have decreased fairly dramatically in his time here. Add to that our declining percentages from the free throw line, and there is a definite trend.

Few of us can say what is going on at practice, but from the outside looking in, it certainly seems like something needs to change. This team is definitely not a mentally tough team, and you can see the hesitation at times. They seem to overthink while on the court, but then other times act like they don't care. Again, not sure why, but this has been a definite trend in the last 2.5 years.

If a team takes on the personality of their coach, I'm not sure what to think or when/how it is going to change.

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....No, it didn’t. Our shooting did, just like you began to say in regards to our boring offense. You just got sidetracked in your haste to storm the castle. Our defense didn’t make us shoot 4/36 from outside the blocks.


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So then who allowed all the easy layups?


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I think Archie is an above average coach. Problem for him, his seat will be getting hot. Especially with social media now days, it will be tough to recruit making it even more difficult to succeed. IMO he needs to hire an offensive coach. I’m rooting for him, but he was not my choice when Glass hired him.


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I think Archie is an above average coach. Problem for him, his seat will be getting hot. Especially with social media now days, it will be tough to recruit making it even more difficult to succeed. IMO he needs to hire an offensive coach. I’m rooting for him, but he was not my choice when Glass hired him.


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If he completely whiffs on the 2021 class... it’s over for him.


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Look, lets face it.  IU isn't going to attract a bunch of 5 stars to fix this mess.  You need to coach your way out of it with 3s and hopefully some 4s.  As you rebuild the program, you start competing in the BIG and making the tournament.  Once players see that there is a)hope and b) a basketball future you can attract them.  We are not doing this -- there is no growth and/or adjustment by the coaching staff.  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity.  

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We had players like David Moretti on campus and let them leave without an offer. I guess we didn’t need a 92% free throw shooter and 46% 3 point shooter


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28 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Look, lets face it.  IU isn't going to attract a bunch of 5 stars to fix this mess.  You need to coach your way out of it with 3s and hopefully some 4s.  As you rebuild the program, you start competing in the BIG and making the tournament.  Once players see that there is a)hope and b) a basketball future you can attract them.  We are not doing this -- there is no growth and/or adjustment by the coaching staff.  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity.  

Problem has been we haven't been hitting on the 3*s and 4*s. 2018 recruiting class is looking like a colossal disaster. Is that harsh enough? I guess since we have Phinny that probably is. The coaching staff has to be nothing short of a major concern. As we've discussed previously, they put this team togehter for the most part and the development has been non-existent. 

Look at Wisconsin. They don't have any 5*s. Never really do. I know they are 11-6 but they are mostly 3*s and 4*s and unlike us showing improvement as the year goes on. They have recently won road games at Ohio St, Penn St and Tennessee....i think this is what is most concerning. We don't seem to ever get any better as a season goes on. If anything, worse and exposed with better competition. Next year without a drastic change (which hasn't happened yet) I don't see how we can be any more hopeful than we are right now. 

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1 hour ago, Golfman25 said:

Look, lets face it.  IU isn't going to attract a bunch of 5 stars to fix this mess.  You need to coach your way out of it with 3s and hopefully some 4s.  As you rebuild the program, you start competing in the BIG and making the tournament.  Once players see that there is a)hope and b) a basketball future you can attract them.  We are not doing this -- there is no growth and/or adjustment by the coaching staff.  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity.  

IU could start landing 5 stars whenever we want if we made the decision to play the game. It's always going to be a grind doing things organically. 

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I highly doubt Archie is oblivious to our atrocious shooting. However, unlike our last coach he doesn’t seem to be one to throw kids under the bus for being poor shooters. He was a career 85% FT shooter and 43% 3PT shooter at NCST. I feel like he understands the importance. Same thing with our offense last year, opposing defenses pack the lane and don’t allow us to do what we want because we have zero outside shooting threats right now. If we even get one guy shooting consistent to make the defense respect our outside game it opens the lanes a lot more and allows the offense to be more free flowing. Outside of when we make terrible turnovers, the offense isn’t as terrible as some think. Obviously the ball isn’t going in the basket, so it looks bad, but we make good rotations and movement a lot of the time, but when the lane is full of defenders and you can’t shoot it dramatically changes the way the offense runs.

 

Again, I don’t know if Archie is the long term answer but I still think it’s way too early to cut bait right now and start all over. There’s a lot of top coaches out there that if you look back at their records they didn’t start winning big in their first 2-3 years. Am I saying give him 9 years to prove something, absolutely not. But we are not a Bill Self taking over Roy Williams Kansas team type of program. We’re an Archie Miller taking over Tom Crean. I have no problem jumping in the get rid of him wagon if things continue to go down hill, but as frustrating as our losses have been this year, and last year, we were in contention in a lot of them and a few shots made changes a lot of things.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


If he completely whiffs on the 2021 class... it’s over for him.


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Honestly unless it is a top 5 class it may not matter. I think the performance next year will determine his fate. No way you are going 4 years without an NCAA appearance. And throw in the fact there will be a new AD. He either gets to the tourney and buys more time or the class coming in is star studded (seems unlikely given the performance on the court and what these recruits are watching). 

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Shooting issues aren't new.  It wasn't unusual for his Dayton teams to struggle with shooting, so this is a pretty common problem his teams have.  That has to be a glaring red flag.  That is on him; he needs to take a serious look and do something, even if it's kicking Flint or someone to the curb to bring in a shot doctor.

 

EDIT for fairness:  His Dayton teams weren't this bad but it was a struggle, so some onus on current roster but he built that.

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12 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Recruit. Better. Players.

 

I know you love Franklin and Phinisee because they are Indiana guys or whatever but neither are special. Neither are up to the challenge.

 

Plenty of Freshman and Sophomore guards out there that are much better.

 

 

 

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Franklin's a freshman and I never said he would be special as a freshman.  Phinisee was absolutely special before his concussion a year ago, and really hasn't been the same since..hurt all of this season, also.   Saying they aren't up to the challenge is a little unfair on your part, and I don't like them solely because they're Indiana guys.  Give me a little more credit than that.   I like them in part because I saw Franklin score an easy 30 against Lawrence North with 3 D1 / D2 players, and I saw Phinisee outplay Langford when he was a sophomore, and also because he was the best player on the floor in a really good Logansport sectional that same year and go on to set records in that conference, which is damned good....and score 50 a couple of time along the way playing a 4A schedule and both high level Indiana all stars..

Indiana does not need "better players."  Most teams in the country don't have "better players."   Indiana needs its parts to fit.  Indiana still has some house cleaning to do.  I've also said I don't think Archie's system will ever win with young players, so whether or not there are players who are "better" at those ages is irrelevant to me.  Putting what he has in position to succeed is far more important.  Healthy, experienced players will do just fine.  I don't think anybody really knows until we're not reliant on DeVonte Green to play well for us to beat good teams.    And right now?  We are. I hate that we are, but we are.  

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25 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Franklin's a freshman and I never said he would be special as a freshman.  Phinisee was absolutely special before his concussion a year ago, and really hasn't been the same since..hurt all of this season, also.   Saying they aren't up to the challenge is a little unfair on your part, and I don't like them solely because they're Indiana guys.  Give me a little more credit than that.   I like them in part because I saw Franklin score an easy 30 against Lawrence North with 3 D1 / D2 players, and I saw Phinisee outplay Langford when he was a sophomore, and also because he was the best player on the floor in a really good Logansport sectional that same year and go on to set records in that conference, which is damned good....and score 50 a couple of time along the way playing a 4A schedule and both high level Indiana all stars..

Indiana does not need "better players."  Most teams in the country don't have "better players."   Indiana needs its parts to fit.  Indiana still has some house cleaning to do.  I've also said I don't think Archie's system will ever win with young players, so whether or not there are players who are "better" at those ages is irrelevant to me.  Putting what he has in position to succeed is far more important.  Healthy, experienced players will do just fine.  I don't think anybody really knows until we're not reliant on DeVonte Green to play well for us to beat good teams.    And right now?  We are. I hate that we are, but we are.  

I disagree that we don't need better players. During conference play we've played 11 guys. 8 of them are shooting under 40% from the field. During conference play from 3, Green is shooting 32%, Anderson is shooting 8%, Franklin is shooting 0%, Smith is shooting 10%, and Hunter is shooting 11%, all on 1.5 or more attempts per game. Four of the eight guys who have taken a 3 in Big 10 play this year are shooting 11% or worse. Archie could put you and me out there and we could do better than that. 3 of our guards are averaging at least as many turnovers as they are assists in conference play, and surprisingly Green is the one who isn't. 

We have a team with a lot of guys who might be good as upperclassmen but are forced to play regular minutes because we don't have other options. We just don't have the talent right now that we need to be the kind of team we want them to be. Our post guys are pretty consistent but our guard rotation is very weak and inconsistent. Green/Durham/Phinisee/Franklin just doesn't cut it. Looking at the box scores, it seems like we can usually count on one of the four having a decent/good game offensively and the other three being nonexistent.

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