2019 Off-Season IU Roster News and Moves

[lillurk]

Why are some folks assuming players can’t improve as shooters? He doesn’t have to be Klay Thompson, he needs to hit like 34% to be a demonstrably better player.

[Hoosierfan2017]

17 minutes ago, lillurk said:

Why are some folks assuming players can’t improve as shooters? He doesn’t have to be Klay Thompson, he needs to hit like 34% to be a demonstrably better player.

Only two rotation players on last year's team shot 34%. He would need to improve his career percentage by 10 percent to become a 34% three point shooter. He's a career 58% from the line. Anything is possible, but it seems very unlikely. Players can improve as shooters, but it's not just a matter of practicing shooting all the time. It's not like these guys don't practice shooting all the time. Some guys just aren't good at it.

[mdn82]

Why are some folks assuming players can’t improve as shooters? He doesn’t have to be Klay Thompson, he needs to hit like 34% to be a demonstrably better player.

We are talking about a 50% free throw shooter. How many free throw shooters improved their 3 pt shooting 13% from the year before? Come on man. Vic was a 75% free throw shooter going from 20-44%. There is a reason that was possible. Free throw shooting is the easiest form of mechanics and repeatability. If he can’t do that? I don’t expect him to improve from three 13% or there to be any chance. Let alone in a season where the 3 is more difficult from one year to the next.

Why are some folks assuming he can improve? Vic had many telling signs he could improve. Justin has 0 of those. He has not improved at any level of his shooting over his first two years. Sorry that isn’t chipper enough for some. He could still play a huge role on a good team. I personally would prefer seeing his free throw numbers improve along with his motor. That would do more for this team than moving his percentage from 22-34% (won’t happen). But I am sure with him averaging taking .9 3 per game that additional .1 made per game is the difference between making the tournament or not. So every 10 games that gets us 3 points back. Every game he is leaving a point at the line on average. Sometimes the simplest things will make you a better squad.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Yes, and Smith will be most successful at IU if he plays a role that fits his skillset. 

His skill set is slashing and defense. It isn’t banging down low and working on the block with his back to the basket. But if he wants to work on his shooting why should we as fans disparage him? We should be excited that he’s motivated and willing to work on a part of his game that he knows isn’t good enough.


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[mdn82]

Yes, and Smith will be most successful at IU if he plays a role that fits his skillset. 

Agreed and it’s not Archie’s job to fit a square peg into a round hole. It’s his job to win. I don’t doubt Justin is trying to improve his 3 this summer. I also won’t be surprised when his minutes are dramatically lowered when he still struggles to do the things we need to win. He is an upperclassmen. We need him to be a leader for this program. Not himself.


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[JSHoosier]

50 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

His skill set is slashing and defense. It isn’t banging down low and working on the block with his back to the basket. But if he wants to work on his shooting why should we as fans disparage him? We should be excited that he’s motivated and willing to work on a part of his game that he knows isn’t good enough.


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Who he is saying he shouldn't work on his shooting?  The guy shot 50% from the line, the easiest shot in the game, not working on his shooting would be gross negligence and say very little of him as a player.  We also have to be realistic though, a guy that only shoots 50% at the stripe probably isn't going to make a big jump from 3.  If he wants to work on shooting, and the numbers say he'd better, he should start at the free throw line.

Far too often last year he seemed to be stuck in neutral, just finding a way to keep his motor up would be an improvement.

[lillurk]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Only two rotation players on last year's team shot 34%. He would need to improve his career percentage by 10 percent to become a 34% three point shooter. He's a career 58% from the line. Anything is possible, but it seems very unlikely. Players can improve as shooters, but it's not just a matter of practicing shooting all the time. It's not like these guys don't practice shooting all the time. Some guys just aren't good at it.

This is fair — shooting development is one of my specific concerns under Archie so far. I think there are obvious mechanical changes Smith could make to his jumper. He shot better from 2, 3, and the line (67%) as a frosh. And I guess I believe shooting is a “natural” talent less than some.

Food for thought: the difference between Smith’s sophomore 3p% and 34% was only 4 makes. That doesn’t seem crazy at all! I think the difference goes a long way to keeping defenses honest (recall the OSU game at SSAH) and that’s a modest increase.

[lillurk]

1 hour ago, mdn82 said:

We are talking about a 50% free throw shooter. How many free throw shooters improved their 3 pt shooting 13% from the year before? Come on man. Vic was a 75% free throw shooter going from 20-44%. There is a reason that was possible. Free throw shooting is the easiest form of mechanics and repeatability. If he can’t do that? I don’t expect him to improve from three 13% or there to be any chance. Let alone in a season where the 3 is more difficult from one year to the next.

Why are some folks assuming he can improve? Vic had many telling signs he could improve. Justin has 0 of those. He has not improved at any level of his shooting over his first two years. Sorry that isn’t chipper enough for some. He could still play a huge role on a good team. I personally would prefer seeing his free throw numbers improve along with his motor. That would do more for this team than moving his percentage from 22-34% (won’t happen). But I am sure with him averaging taking .9 3 per game that additional .1 made per game is the difference between making the tournament or not. So every 10 games that gets us 3 points back. Every game he is leaving a point at the line on average. Sometimes the simplest things will make you a better squad.


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As I said in my reply to @Hoosierfan2017, this is about keeping defenses honest (for Smith and his teammates) as much as the actual made 3s. You’re cherry-picking on your VO comparison: as frosh Smith actually shot better than Vic on FTs by 6%.

I’m not making some case that Smith 2019 = VO 2012; no one is. I’m saying that writing him off is premature and that players add skills or improve, and it isn’t always linear. A guy who had a rough year shooting the ball can improve and/or bounce back.

In the big picture, I’ll add that at this point in his career, the things that would makes Smith more attractive to the NBA are things that would help IU.

[mdn82]

As I said in my reply to [mention=4205]Hoosierfan2017[/mention], this is about keeping defenses honest (for Smith and his teammates) as much as the actual made 3s. You’re cherry-picking on your VO comparison: as frosh Smith actually shot better than Vic on FTs by 6%. I’m not making some case that Smith 2019 = VO 2012; no one is. I’m saying that writing him off is premature and that players add skills or improve, and it isn’t always linear. A guy who had a rough year shooting the ball can improve and/or bounce back. In the big picture, I’ll add that at this point in his career, the things that would makes Smith more attractive to the NBA are things that would help IU. 

 

 

That’s where I’ll disagree. The things you think will improve his NBA stock and help IU I don’t. His ability to throw up 3s will not happen here. He is shooting 1 per game. Like you said 4 more per game makes that big of a difference. No NBA scout is going to care he made 4 more shots throughout a season.  If you watched his form during warmups or during a game it does not feel normal for him at all. I will also disagree with you on your assertion to HF that shooting isn’t a “natural” thing. I just don’t know how to explain that differently but it just is once you get your mechanics set. If you are a Junior in college having that many issues getting that feel you will have issues going forward due to habits. The dude was airballing free throws. Yet we expect him to improve in a year where the line gets back? I have been called a sunshine pumper for years. But dude I can’t even find a spin on this to have any semblance of positivity or any reason to think him hitting 4 more 3’s in a season would remotely help him or this team.

 

Edit: I did not cherry pick my Vic comparison. It wasn’t even my comparison. That was Joes comparison. Joe discussed his sophomore to junior jump. I am not bringing freshman numbers into an argument when they weren’t the one discussed. Why would I? Justin clearly regressed as a sophomore. Archie has never been a coach to have players improve their shooting. Why should I expect it to be that way in this scenario?

 

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[HoosierAloha]

Wait, slashing is a perimeter skill? I could see it if you were catching a taking a few dribbles but I want to see a Troy Williams baseline catch, one step, and a throw down!


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[ap2345]

Maybe everyone should wait till next Tuesday’s preseason game and let CAM and staff coach the team and see how players have developed and are utilized before saying how they will be utilized.


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[mdn82]

Maybe everyone should wait till next Tuesday’s preseason game and let CAM and staff coach the team and see how players have developed and are utilized before saying how they will be utilized.

 

 

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Dude this is kind of the purpose of these boards and have been since day 1. As much as I think it’s crazy to say Justin needs to be on the outside (and in the same thread say he is a slasher?), this is the place for that. So I politely disagree we should wait to discuss how WE would utilize Justin Smith. Plus we will learn very little next Tuesday on how CAM will use him. He could come out next week and shoot 5 3’s only to not shoot any in the month of November. Or vice versa. It’s a scrimmage.

 

 

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[Hillsdale87]

Maybe everyone should wait till next Tuesday’s preseason game and let CAM and staff coach the team and see how players have developed and are utilized before saying how they will be utilized.


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That would make too much sense. [emoji1]

Smith should be working on his shooting no matter what, just like everybody else on this team. If he can hit enough 3s to make people guard him out there, that's great as it adds another scoring threat and brings a big out to clear space in the lane. If he can't hit the 3, then he either won't play, or he will be spending a lot of time near the hoop. He's had terrible form, so if they're able to fix that, I don't think it's wild to think he can become a decent shooter. If his shot looks the same as last year he has not shot. Either way, this team has depth at the 3/4 assuming Hunter can provide good minutes. Archie doesn't have to continue running him out there like last year when the only other options were Fitzner or Forrester.


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[ap2345]

Dude this is kind of the purpose of these boards and have been since day 1. As much as I think it’s crazy to say Justin needs to be on the outside (and in the same thread say he is a slasher?), this is the place for that. So I politely disagree we should wait to discuss how WE would utilize Justin Smith. Plus we will learn very little next Tuesday on how CAM will use him. He could come out next week and shoot 5 3’s only to not shoot any in the month of November. Or vice versa. It’s a scrimmage.
 
 
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I get it but this Smith debate has been going on for months. It’s the same argument over and over. The fact is unless you’ve been to practice nobody knows if his skills have developed at all so everyone is arguing hypotheticals to back their argument.


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[mdn82]

 

That would make too much sense. [emoji1]

 

Smith should be working on his shooting no matter what, just like everybody else on this team. If he can hit enough 3s to make people guard him out there, that's great as it adds another scoring threat and brings a big out to clear space in the lane. If he can't hit the 3, then he either won't play, or he will be spending a lot of time near the hoop. He's had terrible form, so if they're able to fix that, I don't think it's wild to think he can become a decent shooter. If his shot looks the same as last year he has not shot. Either way, this team has depth at the 3/4 assuming Hunter can provide good minutes. Archie doesn't have to continue running him out there like last year when the only other options were Fitzner or Forrester.

 

 

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I think that’s the 2nd time I saw someone say something about “making too much sense” on these boards about similar things others felt people shouldn’t discuss. How about self awareness of knowing where you are and what you are clicking into? This is the place for these exact discussions! Maybe that would just make too much sense? [emoji1][emoji106]

 

 

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[mdn82]

I get it but this Smith debate has been going on for months. It’s the same argument over and over. The fact is unless you’ve been to practice nobody knows if his skills have developed at all so everyone is arguing hypotheticals to back their argument.


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Again, that’s the purpose of these places in the summer 🤷🏿‍♂️


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Wait, slashing is a perimeter skill? I could see it if you were catching a taking a few dribbles but I want to see a Troy Williams baseline catch, one step, and a throw down!


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Well you can’t slash from the block. And how many were yelling at their TV’s to tell Troy to stop dribbling? Probably everyone. But he was a great slasher and did improve a little as a playmaker even though he was still a bit out of control.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

That’s where I’ll disagree. The things you think will improve his NBA stock and help IU I don’t. His ability to throw up 3s will not happen here. He is shooting 1 per game. Like you said 4 more per game makes that big of a difference. No NBA scout is going to care he made 4 more shots throughout a season.  If you watched his form during warmups or during a game it does not feel normal for him at all. I will also disagree with you on your assertion to HF that shooting isn’t a “natural” thing. I just don’t know how to explain that differently but it just is once you get your mechanics set. If you are a Junior in college having that many issues getting that feel you will have issues going forward due to habits. The dude was airballing free throws. Yet we expect him to improve in a year where the line gets back? I have been called a sunshine pumper for years. But dude I can’t even find a spin on this to have any semblance of positivity or any reason to think him hitting 4 more 3’s in a season would remotely help him or this team. 
Edit: I did not cherry pick my Vic comparison. It wasn’t even my comparison. That was Joes comparison. Joe discussed his sophomore to junior jump. I am not bringing freshman numbers into an argument when they weren’t the one discussed. Why would I? Justin clearly regressed as a sophomore. Archie has never been a coach to have players improve their shooting. Why should I expect it to be that way in this scenario?
 
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I don’t remember saying anything about Vic. I think someone else did. I compared him to Mo Harkless. Because he fits into the mold. Harkless, Al-Farouq Aminu, Andre Roberson, Luc Mbah a Moute. Guys that are good defenders who can still improve from the outside but it isn’t exactly necessary because of the intangibles they have. There are specialist in the NBA and some guys who have never heard of and never thought should have made it, make it. How many people thought Royce O’Neal and Torrey Craig would be starters in the NBA on two of the best teams?


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[Walking Boot of Doom]

I don’t remember saying anything about Vic. I think someone else did. I compared him to Mo Harkless. Because he fits into the mold. Harkless, Al-Farouq Aminu, Andre Roberson, Luc Mbah a Moute. Guys that are good defenders who can still improve from the outside but it isn’t exactly necessary because of the intangibles they have. There are specialist in the NBA and some guys who have never heard of and never thought should have made it, make it. How many people thought Royce O’Neal and Torrey Craig would be starters in the NBA on two of the best teams?


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Justin Smith needs Vic’s attitude and work ethic if he wants to make the league regardless of role or coaching. The reason most of the board doubts he can improve or make the league is because we have not seen that fire or attitude.

Maybe he is truly hardworking and dedicated behind the scenes, but I have no faith until proven otherwise.


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[HoosierAloha]

Well you can’t slash from the block.


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Huh?

Where should Justin Smith finish when he’s slashing? (I’ll give you a hint, it’s not on the perimeter)


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