Thoughts on Crean after one and one-third years of Archie?

[southernindianahoosier2 902]

Serious question as I am not trolling: I was having a discussion with one of my friends and he thought Tom Crean got a raw deal and should have had 1 more year at Indiana, his reasons being that he thought we pulled the trigger on Archie too soon and should have waited another year to see what other coaches were available. I was arguing that we should have fired Crean after the first round exit in 2015 and hired Archie Miller then. My reasons are as follows: Archie would have started the 2015-2016 season coming off an elite 8 and round of 32 appearance and had a chance to recruit Kyle Guy and Kris Wilkes; Crean had a large enough sample size to showcase that he wasn't capable of sustained success and retaining him was just delaying the inevitable (I had said this in 2014 to a prominent journalist and was laughed at, BTW)

 

What are your thoughts on how Indiana handled the situation? After a year and a half of Archie, did we pull the trigger too soon, too late, or just right? (This is intended to be a fun conversation)

 

[biteoftheapple 4,115]

Serious question as I am not trolling: I was having a discussion with one of my friends and he thought Tom Crean got a raw deal and should have had 1 more year at Indiana, his reasons being that he thought we pulled the trigger on Archie too soon and should have waited another year to see what other coaches were available. I was arguing that we should have fired Crean after the first round exit in 2015 and hired Archie Miller then. My reasons are as follows: Archie would have started the 2015-2016 season coming off an elite 8 and round of 32 appearance and had a chance to recruit Kyle Guy and Kris Wilkes; Crean had a large enough sample size to showcase that he wasn't capable of sustained success and retaining him was just delaying the inevitable (I had said this in 2014 to a prominent journalist and was laughed at, BTW)
 
What are your thoughts on how Indiana handled the situation? After a year and a half of Archie, did we pull the trigger too soon, too late, or just right? (This is intended to be a fun conversation)
 

HE stayed 9 years too long.

[JSHoosier 19,852]

Too late. I thought he should've been fired when he managed to miss NIT with two burger boys in the lineup, and 14-15 should've been at the latest.

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[Stromboli 6,076]

I'm of the opinion the switch happened just when it should have.  In fact, my join date on this board corresponds with the day I was convinced it was time.  And so I got to be a part of the caucophony of discontentment rise to deafening levels, the excitement of the firing (remember when the thread changed titles?), and then through the hiring process.  It was all fun.

 

Then attention switched to recruiting, that awesome 24 hours landing Damezi, Jerome, and Race, and then the Romeo watch.  Clearly, this excitement would not have happened if the AD hadn't finally made the switch.

 

I know everyone likes to say that they knew Crean wasn't the right guy long before that.  Maybe.  But I think patience made sense.  We weren't wholly irrelevant, we got just barely enough big wins, occasional high rankings, and recruits to keep the hope alive.  And then when we had that loaded team in 16-17 and yet could be beat by literally anybody, I accepted we had enough.

[southernindianahoosier2 902]

2 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

Too late. I thought he should've been fired when he managed to miss NIT with two burger boys in the lineup, and 14-15 should've been at the latest.

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Does anyone know why we didn't fire him at that juncture? Did Crean convince Fred Glass that the arrival of Thomas Bryant would fix everything? Did we look for a coach behind the scenes, just nothing came to fruition? This is still such a mystery to me. 

[Dalton26 16,892]

I didn’t want Crean when he was hired so I thought the first year was too many.


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[HoosierFan1994 4,729]

Should have been gone after 2011 but getting Zeller and Yogi helped keep him around. 

[JSHoosier 19,852]

Does anyone know why we didn't fire him at that juncture? Did Crean convince Fred Glass that the arrival of Thomas Bryant would fix everything? Did we look for a coach behind the scenes, just nothing came to fruition? This is still such a mystery to me. 

After the cluster-of-incompetence I mentioned being one year removed from a Sweet 16 was probably a big factor. Plus the astronomical buyout that someone was stupid enough to give him.

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[Bailey7878 2,506]

Serious question as I am not trolling: I was having a discussion with one of my friends and he thought Tom Crean got a raw deal and should have had 1 more year at Indiana, his reasons being that he thought we pulled the trigger on Archie too soon and should have waited another year to see what other coaches were available. I was arguing that we should have fired Crean after the first round exit in 2015 and hired Archie Miller then. My reasons are as follows: Archie would have started the 2015-2016 season coming off an elite 8 and round of 32 appearance and had a chance to recruit Kyle Guy and Kris Wilkes; Crean had a large enough sample size to showcase that he wasn't capable of sustained success and retaining him was just delaying the inevitable (I had said this in 2014 to a prominent journalist and was laughed at, BTW)
 
What are your thoughts on how Indiana handled the situation? After a year and a half of Archie, did we pull the trigger too soon, too late, or just right? (This is intended to be a fun conversation)
 

He should have been fired after the syracuse fiasco and at the very latest two years before he was. He should never have gotten those last two years.

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[Brass Cannon 24,271]

Escalation of commitment is to the only reason Crean was still here after we fell off a cliff after Zeller left. 

[JSHoosier 19,852]

I didn’t want Crean when he was hired so I thought the first year was too many.


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I loved the hire at first, but once I actually looked at his record I started to sour.

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[southernindianahoosier2 902]

3 minutes ago, HoosierFan1994 said:

Should have been gone after 2011 but getting Zeller and Yogi helped keep him around. 

You bring up a good point... Had Zeller not come to IU then maybe Crean is fired and we get a new coach after the 2011-2012 season (BRAD STEVENS ARE YOU THERE!). My friend thinks that Indiana would have got a commitment from Zeller pretty much regardless of who the coach was. 

[JSHoosier 19,852]

He should have been fired after the syracuse fiasco and at the very latest two years before he was. He should never have gotten those last two years.

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As little as I think of Crean's "coaching" even I couldn't have justified that. That debacle was laughably poor coaching but we were in a second consecutive Sweet 16.

A huge red flag? Absolutely.

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[LamarCheeks 18,223]

I thought it was about the right time. I started getting worried after we had the best team in the country and got waxed by a totally inferior Syracuse team in the NCAAs -- and all because Crean was terrified of, and had no idea how to attack, that 2-3 zone. Anybody with some decent coaching chops could've taken that team at least to the the Final Four. And then "The Movement" was a total failure and after that, the state's top talent wouldn't even consider us. Still, I was willing to ride it out a little -- especially after we won the B1G regular-season title in 2016.

But going from No. 3 in the country to a first-round NIT exit was kinda the last straw -- at least to me.  It was proof positive that it was time for a change. We had gone as high as we were gonna go under Crean. And besides, he was making way, way too much money for the kind of performances we were seeing. For as much money as he was making, the NCAAs should've been a given every year -- with an excellent chance to make the Sweet 16 and a decent chance to make the Final Four. 

One argument I would make for an earlier exit was that we missed out on Brad Stevens. At any point when he's at Butler, I think if we fire Crean and offer him the job, he takes it. And not to sound arrogant, but I think if he were here, he wouldn't leave for the NBA. 

As far as the move coming too early, I can't see any argument backing that. If we truly wanted Archie, I can almost guarantee you that if we didn't hire him when we did, Ohio State would have. 

[mdn82 25,510]

I'm of the opinion the switch happened just when it should have.  In fact, my join date on this board corresponds with the day I was convinced it was time.  And so I got to be a part of the caucophony of discontentment rise to deafening levels, the excitement of the firing (remember when the thread changed titles?), and then through the hiring process.  It was all fun.

 

Then attention switched to recruiting, that awesome 24 hours landing Damezi, Jerome, and Race, and then the Romeo watch.  Clearly, this excitement would not have happened if the AD hadn't finally made the switch.

 

I know everyone likes to say that they knew Crean wasn't the right guy long before that.  Maybe.  But I think patience made sense.  We weren't wholly irrelevant, we got just barely enough big wins, occasional high rankings, and recruits to keep the hope alive.  And then when we had that loaded team in 16-17 and yet could be beat by literally anybody, I accepted we had enough.

I lean with this mainly because I didn’t mind the hire and I am glad we ended up with Archie. What led into his hiring is why I didn’t mind it. It was the best we were getting if all reports are semi accurate at that point. Timing is everything imo.

I didn’t want Crean when he was hired so I thought the first year was too many.

 

 

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I also get this take. Some feel that way about Archie. There is a close to 100% chance he will be fired here. Very few coaches retire on their own. That would mean Archie is here over 30 years probably. That’s a long time and mean multiple titles would have to be won. There will be some that will say even if he was here 20 years or 5 they told you so. Nature of the beast.

 

 

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[killerbeezer 112]

For me, it was the struggle with the Syracuse zone. Then we saw IU starting to run it intermittent to national bemusement. It was like Crean knew what the book says against a zone but never had real world experience succeeding against it. So he started studying it and trying to incorporate variations of it. 

As frustrated as people were with the lack of an offensive plan, it was the defense that cost us games and maybe titles. 

[Bailey7878 2,506]

I hated the hire from day one. I hated it even more after he was given a four year honeymoon.

I loved the hire at first, but once I actually looked at his record I started to sour.

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[Josh 12,573]

Crean needed to go a couple of years earlier, but he had that massive buyout.  Dude simply couldn't coach.

As long as I'm being honest, I haven't seen anything on the court to say Archie is an upgrade.  Yes, our defense is better, but our offense is worse.  And those blowout losses at home last year followed by another first round loss in the Big Ten Tournament...yuck.  Obviously he has time this year to improve upon it, but one and one third years of Archie seems similar to Crean imo.

[DChoosier 7,993]

Many mentions of the Syracuse game which was, to say the least, very disappointing.  Crean never did learn how to attack a zone.  I have a friend that is a Syracuse alum and before the game he surprised me by saying he was sure they would crush us because we would not be able to handle their zone and that their guards (both 6’6”) would dominate  our “midget” (his word) guards (Hulls and Yogi at 6’ and both went totally scoreless).  No doubt that not handling the zone is on Crean.  Not to defend Crean but it is also not as if Syracuse was Indiana State. They started out the year ranked 9th, spent part of the year ranked 3rd and 4th, and one of those starting 6’6” guards, Michael Carter Williams,  was a lottery pick and the NBA rookie of the year.  Because of the size of their guards and our inability to handle zones it was one of the worst matchups we could have encountered. After beating us they then held 3rd seed Marquette to 39 points.  

That being said, many of us (except Fred Glass) definitely tired of his lack of knowing how to attack a zone, the turnovers, pointless weaves, too much dribbling, puzzling substitutions (make three in a row and you get yanked), horrid plays out of time-outs and terrible team defense.  I do, however, have some appreciation for him taking over the steaming pile left by Samscum and did admire how he got his totally inferior first year team to play very hard even though they knew they were going to get their butts kicked.  9 years was definitely way too long.

[DChoosier 7,993]

5 hours ago, JSHoosier said:

Too late. I thought he should've been fired when he managed to miss NIT with two burger boys in the lineup, and 14-15 should've been at the latest.

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Agree that he should have been gone after that NIT season. I am guessing that his contract, and having gone to the sweet 16 the two previous years, saved him (even though the second sweet 16 was an underachievement).