IUBB at Wisconsin - 1/2/18 @ 7:00 E.T.

[dbmhoosier 851]

6 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

This is going to turn quickly on Archie. He either needs to get through to the guys or sit them.

That 2nd half last night was pathetic. Deron Davis was probably giving the most effort and he is not giving much. Watching Morgan casually move around and post with no effort drives me crazy. He moved with purpose only when Happ went out otherwise he seemed to accept that he was beat.

Happ is great because of the effort the kid gives. Watch him cut quickly, decisively and make the defense work so hard to stop him then watch Morgan do the complete opposite.

I expected Archie to get through to them but since if the did not buy in then I would love to see those guys sit the rest of the year even if we lose out. The fact that he continues to play them is a concern for me.




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He plays the guys he does because he has no other choice.  As bad as we were last we still lead at the half and had a chance for most of the game.  I'd love to see us start Durham, Mcroberts, Smith, Morgan, and Moore but if Archie did that we're probably down double figures at the half with no chance to win.  I just don't think he's ready to throw in the towel yet.  He still thinks we could somewhat salvage the season. 

[8bucks 7,492]

He plays the guys he does because he has no other choice.  As bad as we were last we still lead at the half and had a chance for most of the game.  I'd love to see us start Durham, Mcroberts, Smith, Morgan, and Moore but if Archie did that we're probably down double figures at the half with no chance to win.  I just don't think he's ready to throw in the towel yet.  He still thinks we could somewhat salvage the season. 

I agree for now but as I said this could turn quickly on him.


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[Aaron 4,517]

This is something I struggle with. You will never win at a top level if you don't cheat some but you can certainly win at a high level. I can guarantee you given the level of recruiting they do that Michigan, Butler, Purdue and Wisconsin are pretty clean and they do it with systems and pretty much all 3 and 4 star recruits.

Key is being able to install a system and win with the next level of player. If Archie is the coach everyone thinks he can be, he can certainly recruit the same level and type of players he has next year, every year and mold that into a run similar to what the above teams I mention do every year. Is that enough for IU fans? Given what we have been through you might take it. If every year is like Crean's 2011 team consistently without the valleys is that acceptable? You can certainly do that without cheating at all.

To be Duke, UNC, Arizona, UK ETC you have to cheat some. The question for the entire fan base is do we want to be a Michigan or a Butler that wins pretty big but clean every year and probably falls short of a title or be the UNC or UK and cheat a bit and hope to not get caught? I kind of think at this point in college basketball those are your options and IU and us fans needs to decide which way we want it. If we can always be like Crean's 3 good years without the 6 bad ones would we take it or do we play in the gray a bit and win really big?

With all that said I will not judge Archie until he has his own players in here.

[Bailey7878 2,506]

I agree for now but as I said this could turn quickly on him.


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So far I've been pretty underwhelmed by Archie. I honestly expected him to get much more out of a team that plays,4 seniors. I kind of hope he's not like his brother cause people I know in Arizona don't think seans a good coach. He just gets alot of 5 stars with big talent who make him look good He chokes every year in the ncaa and we now know he cheats big time .

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[Magnanimous 5,361]

15 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

I agree for now but as I said this could turn quickly on him.


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That's jumping the gun. He's going to be here for at least four years if everything goes wrong. I've watched our games this year in a number of different environments. I was at the Seton Hall game, have watched games in bars on Kirkwood, and went to a few at AH as well. The common denominator amongst fans when the team stinks, these are Crean's players who can't play smart basketball. This fan base is fully aware of what Archie is dealing with and where the majority of the blame lies.

I know we consider this board to be a special community, and it's great for talking IU sports with fans of different generations from all over, and we get a lot of great stuff here regarding the the finer aspects of the program, but in regards to the product itself, this isn't some special "in the know" community who sees the team for what it is while the rest of IU fans are fairweather oafs blaming Archie. In fact, when this team has executed, all I've been hearing is praise for fundamental basketball finally returning to Bloomington. "Where has that been the last 20 years?" has been spoken multiple times in front of me at these various venues. 

His 2018 class is about set and looks very promising. We can declare it "turning ugly" when recruiting dries up, as it did for Crean. And no, I'm not referring to one and done players going elsewhere, but the consistent trend of top 100 recruits we're competing for not choosing us. That's where we're going to be able to gauge whether or not players are viewing the program as a viable long-term investment on par with the other top schools in the country. 

[8bucks 7,492]

That's jumping the gun. He's going to be here for at least four years if everything goes wrong. I've watched our games this year in a number of different environments. I was at the Seton Hall game, have watched games in bars on Kirkwood, and went to a few at AH as well. The common denominator amongst fans when the team stinks, these are Crean's players who can't play smart basketball. This fan base is fully aware of what Archie is dealing with and where the majority of the blame lies.
I know we consider this board to be a special community, and it's great for talking IU sports with fans of different generations from all over, and we get a lot of great stuff here regarding the the finer aspects of the program, but in regards to the product itself, this isn't some special "in the know" community who sees the team for what it is while the rest of IU fans are fairweather oafs blaming Archie. In fact, when this team has executed, all I've been hearing is praise for fundamental basketball finally returning to Bloomington. "Where has that been the last 20 years?" has been spoken multiple times in front of me at these various venues. 
His 2018 class is about set and looks very promising. We can declare it "turning ugly" when recruiting dries up, as it did for Crean. And no, I'm not referring to one and done players going elsewhere, but the consistent trend of top 100 recruits we're competing for not choosing us. That's where we're going to be able to gauge whether or not players are viewing the program as a viable long-term investment on par with the other top schools in the country. 

I have been a supporter and if you read my complaint it was not about it being creans kids at all. My growing issue is Archie has been unable to get upperclassmen to play hard. Several games we have lost the guys have just been going through the motions but not competing like they did against Duke and ND.

At some point he is rather going to get through to them, bench them or the fan base will begin to turn quickly. Not all the fans but people like me who have been arguing for him all year but am getting tired of watching IU lose because the other teams care more.




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[IUHAHN81 3,308]

Idk guys and gals.  But if this team loses and looks like it's no big deal and they could care less, will they really care if they sit on the bench and just watch? If u can't get pissed about losing to everyone u play, I don't know much u r gonna get pissed about in general when it comes to bball :/  

[IUHAHN81 3,308]

And then u have the players post game interviews where they r asked what they need to do different and they give the same answers after every game. My advice would be quit talking about it and freaking DO it.  How bad does it sound to KNOW ur faults as a team and then keep doing the same bs?! My goodness.  Haha

[WayneFleekHoosier 51,164]

And then u have the players post game interviews where they r asked what they need to do different and they give the same answers after every game. My advice would be quit talking about it and freaking DO it.  How bad does it sound to KNOW ur faults as a team and then keep doing the same bs?! My goodness.  Haha

They don't know what to say. They want to think it's effort but it's skill level and basketball intelligence, just as much. I think early in the season they were trying to run Archie's offense but it looked disjointed and confused. Lately the offense looks more like Crean's offense with dribble drive and kickouts. We don't have good drivers, good shooters and don't have reliable post players we can feed regularly.

This team is confused. They don't know how to win. We have nothing we can go to with consistency on offense. Crazy limited offensive team considering it's Crean's guys.

I bet Archie thought he could talk Blackmon into staying.


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[cappymo14 2,276]

I went to see this one live boys. Had excellent seats, 6 rows from the floor. I’m sure it looked bad on the tube, but I assure you, it was far uglier in the flesh. During the second half, a fan taps me on the shoulder and say’s “Is Indiana a really young team?” I said “No, there are 3 seniors and a junior on the floor right now.” She was baffled. “Do they know Ethan (Happ) won’t shoot when he’s out past 12’?” “You shouldn’t double him that far out, not with the ball side guard”. ”He’s just going to give it to the guy you left at the three point line.” I started to pay attention immediately. It happened again (Newkirk). And again. (McRob). I have come to believe that the maddening defensive misses that have been showing up as internet gif’s, have been taught. I’m seeing fundamental system flaws. It could be players missing switches, but on the same thing over and over? Can’t be coincidence.

 

 

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[DChoosier 9,635]

12 hours ago, TXHoosierDaddy said:

It disgusts me too to see Dakich go on the air yesterday and say Crean shouldn't have been fired. The guy was here 9 seasons not 3!!! Then Dakich says again the team should have hired Alford. It's so tiring listening to the guy. Agree Crean should have been gone 2 seasons ago and if it wasn't for Yogi putting the team on his back all year he would have. 

How many times did Dakich properly deride Crean and his teams for lack of ball movement, failure to feed the post, lack of "help defense",  careless turnovers etc.  I find it very hard to believe that Dakich truly thinks Crean should have been retained.

[Old Friend 8,665]

6 hours ago, BGleas said:

Absolutely, and I have a ton of respect for your opinion as well! I don't think we're that far off. I agree something isn't right. Archie is clearly not getting through to these guys. There's a lack of energy and urgency overall, though that was there with the same guys under Crean, but Archie was selling that he was going to fix that. The offense is completely stagnant and Morgan is the only player with any confidence offensively, and even with him his confidence only goes to about 5ft.

I'm still fully aboard the Archie train though, I like what he says, he's clearly a "basketball guy", etc. I think he'll be fine, but yes the optics don't look great right now. I'm not sure what to make of him on the offensive end, though in his defense early in the season we saw IU carve up some zone defenses better than they have in years. I've also seen him design defenses to stop guys (though it didn't work against Happ) and make adjustments. I'm not worried about his X's and O's for the most part. 

As far as the talent, I stand by that. IU absolutely has more talent than Wisconsin did last night top to bottom. But my point was that only 5 guys play at a time, and last night Wisconsin had 2 of the 3 best players, and with Happ they had the best player on the floor by a pretty wide margin. 

I guess where I'd differ with you is I don't think he's (Happ)  all that talented.  Hell, he can barely jump and he's not a good shooter.   What he IS though....is incredibly smart and fundamentally sound.   I don't think he's as talented as Davis or Morgan.  I think he is far better.  Does that make sense?  

I talked to a former player tonight, and he said he thinks this team is not fully invested.  One foot in, one foot out.  So for now; I'll go with that and stay off Archie; but I would love to see some progression or getting away from kids like Newkirk who just don't seem to be able to find consistency or worthwhile production.  We have proven we can lose with this back court.  I am ready for a new one.

[HoosierAloha 30,102]

They don't know what to say. They want to think it's effort but it's skill level and basketball intelligence, just as much. I think early in the season they were trying to run Archie's offense but it looked disjointed and confused. Lately the offense looks more like Crean's offense with dribble drive and kickouts. We don't have good drivers, good shooters and don't have reliable post players we can feed regularly.

This team is confused. They don't know how to win. We have nothing we can go to with consistency on offense. Crazy limited offensive team considering it's Crean's guys.

I bet Archie thought he could talk Blackmon into staying.


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And that leads to a lack of confidence in what you're doing. This team just looks defeated. I just can't fathom doing something half assed. I'd be embarrassed if I were associated with the team. I'd probably get kicked out of the game, off the bench, or out of the program if I were associated more than a fan. (I would say I'd get my @$$ kicked by players who were much bigger and stronger but I'm not sure they would even care enough to fight)


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[HoosierAloha 30,102]

How many times did Dakich properly deride Crean and his teams for lack of ball movement, failure to feed the post, lack of "help defense",  careless turnovers etc.  I find it very hard to believe that Dakich truly thinks Crean should have been retained.

Dakich knows basketball. He's no dummy. He lives to hear himself talk and cause a commotion. I just laugh at most of the "dumb" things he says because I know it's about the bottom line and not about what he truly believes.


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[Hoosierdaddy67 29]

Could be worse, you could have season tickets (trust me :) )   I can't even give them away

I will take tickets if you can't give them away !

[Uspshoosier 53,964]

I guess where I'd differ with you is I don't think he's (Happ)  all that talented.  Hell, he can barely jump and he's not a good shooter.   What he IS though....is incredibly smart and fundamentally sound.   I don't think he's as talented as Davis or Morgan.  I think he is far better.  Does that make sense?  
I talked to a former player tonight, and he said he thinks this team is not fully invested.  One foot in, one foot out.  So for now; I'll go with that and stay off Archie; but I would love to see some progression or getting away from kids like Newkirk who just don't seem to be able to find consistency or worthwhile production.  We have proven we can lose with this back court.  I am ready for a new one.

I’m surprised you don’t think Happ is that talented. Now projecting him as a pro I agree that he won’t be a good pro but as a college basketball player just from your post history he seems like your type of player. He was a Third team All-American last year as a sophomore and led Wisky in every major category.


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[Class of '66 Old Fart 89,945]

8 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Dakich knows basketball. He's no dummy. He lives to hear himself talk and cause a commotion. I just laugh at most of the "dumb" things he says because I know it's about the bottom line and not about what he truly believes.


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FWIW - Dan Dakich went 10-16 in his first season at Bowling Green, they were 22-10 the season before he arrived.   He had 5 winning seasons out of the 10 he coached at Bowling Green with a winning record of 52.7% - hardly HOF credentials.  I stopped listening to the blowhard long ago.  I'll agree he knows the nuances of basketball but clearly he wasn't particularly good at coaching.

 

[BGleas 8,982]

10 hours ago, Old Friend said:

I guess where I'd differ with you is I don't think he's (Happ)  all that talented.  Hell, he can barely jump and he's not a good shooter.   What he IS though....is incredibly smart and fundamentally sound.   I don't think he's as talented as Davis or Morgan.  I think he is far better.  Does that make sense?  

I talked to a former player tonight, and he said he thinks this team is not fully invested.  One foot in, one foot out.  So for now; I'll go with that and stay off Archie; but I would love to see some progression or getting away from kids like Newkirk who just don't seem to be able to find consistency or worthwhile production.  We have proven we can lose with this back court.  I am ready for a new one.

It makes sense, but I think maybe it’s just semantics over the word “talented”. Do Morgan and Davis have more raw talent? Probably. Morgan is more athletic, and Davis has more size, but Happ is by far the best basketball player out of the three of them. Morgan and Davis can’t shooot either, and Happ is a better ball handler and passer than both. I think Happ and Morgan are comparable on the block, both are crafty and good finishers, but Happ has about 3 inches on him which helps. 

There is a reason Happ is an All-American and the other two aren’t. Bottom line, if we’re picking teams amongst the two rosters, I’m taking Happ #1 and thanking god I had the first pick. 

On Archie, like I said, I’m still onboard the train. There are certainly some things that are concerning, but I agree with the player you spoke too, not everyone is bought in, which is a shame. I think the team will look a lot different next year. Albeit young which will pose challenges, but the team will have size and length on the perimeter, there will be some shooters, a good ball handler in Phinisee. I think the added length will help the defense, better shooters and skilled athletes will make things look a lot different. 

It’s definitely a weird time for IU basketball. There see,s to be a huge lack of excitement, both from the players and the fans, and I don’t know what Archie can do about that, but he has to find a way to flip it. I hope the lack of momentum doesn’t impact the recruiting trail. 

[jmsgws 2,181]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It’s definitely a weird time for IU basketball. There see,s to be a huge lack of excitement, both from the players and the fans, and I don’t know what Archie can do about that, but he has to find a way to flip it. I hope the lack of momentum doesn’t impact the recruiting trail. 

I am beginning to understand the lack of excitement from the fans.  For years, now, the traditional IU fan has been frustrated.  15 years since our last Final Four appearances, the end of Davis, then the Sampson debacle.  Fans got their spirits lifted with Tom Crean, then it became obvious that Crean would not lead us to the promised land, but it took a while for the Athletic Department to catch on.  

Now most fans thought Miller was going to come in and have an immediate impact on what we saw as flaws in the program.  It seems that immediate is going to take a while...  In this day and age, we all want instant gratification.  If we have to wait 5 seconds vs two for the webpage to display, we immediately think something is wrong with the computer, or the internet.  Most of us have lost the ability for patience.  

I think Archie can get the excitement back, but he has to do something to show the fans that he is doing something (anything) to fix what we perceive as the problems. 

[BGleas 8,982]

Just saw this posted on Facebook. Maybe Archie needs to do something like this with Morgan. Not that Morgan isn't playing hard, but he's the one guy this team can lean on and ride, but it seems like the team could use more excitement/leadership from him.