Dakich: Blackmon couldn't guard a chair

[Old Friend 8,389]

Why does everyone keep thinking Butler only recruits local kids. They have 3 players from Indiana and 1 used to be on IU who thought he was better than the playing time he deserved. FYI, he isn't doing much better at Butler. If "local" is going to include Illinois and Kentucky than I guess a point can be made. But I'm from Chicago and I know for a fact that the type of ball mentioned is not what they play. If I remember correctly, IU beat a better Butler team last year with pretty much the same roster. I'm so tired of the argument that IU needs to focus locally more or get better local talent. If this program is ever going to get back to blue chip recognization, we need to keep pulling in talent from everywhere.

When did anyone say "Butler only recruits local kids?"  Local absolutely includes Illinois and Kentucky, which is why I said within 200 miles.  The formula's there.  Has been for decades.  You can be tired of the argument all you want.  Listen to former players who built the program.  Not me or anyone here.  The only two schools who truly have a national footprint are Duke and Kentucky.  We are not Duke or Kentucky.  Where's the evidence that shows we need to "keep pulling talent from everywhere?"  No we don't.  We need kids who give a damn about Indiana and kids who can play like team mates instead of like ball-skilled "And One" guys who want to go to the NBA.  Think Michigan State and Wisconsin are accidents?  Why do the same teams win the Big Ten every year?  You're tired of the argument?  I'm tired of IU fans who don't get it and somehow think Indiana needs to recruit New York to succeed.   A complete load of crap.   Again, don't listen to me.  Listen to people who built the traditions and created what is unique to anywhere else in the country.

[Old Friend 8,389]

get over yourself. The holier than thou attitude you post with is degrading and tasteless.

This is not about me.  At all.  I'm on the same side as the people who built the program.  All I'm doing is agreeing with them and relaying the message because I think it's important.   Critical, even if we ever want to get back where we were.  This is the message of former players.  I'm delivering it because I believe in it.  

 

Like I said, you get it or you don't.  But if you don't, stop blaming me and take a step back...and a hard look at the college basketball world and let me know what you find from the teams apart from Duke and Kentucky that are consistently successful.   Consistently in position to win championships (conference, conference tournament, national...whatever)  We're not doing what they're doing.  And I also don't care one bit if you like me or what or how I post.  My point in doing it has nothing to do with you.  I give a damn about Indiana basketball, and because I know the people I know, I believe what they say about how it can be fixed; and it's not with Tom Crean throwing darts on the east coast trying to get the next highly rated kid.

[chitown hoosier 743]

The kids who are from Indiana that should give a damn about Indiana basketball are the most selfish players on the team right now.

[HoosierAloha 30,020]

I don't get why Yogi gets a pass on defense as well. For someone who's supposedly our best defender sure gets beat a lot. I think that whole blow up earlier this year between Thomas and him was because of defense as well. Yogi really needs to do a better job on man to man because it's leading to too many easy buckets. I agree completely that he is a good scorer but not a great pg. I almost blew a lid when he ran that fast break spot up 3 to tie the game. I've seen so many games last year where he did that and missed and completely gave away our momentum. He really needs to step up and be a supposed leader of this team.

Not directed at you but your last sentence brought it back to me. Can we stop calling Yogi a leader of this team because... He's just not a leader. He's a good player and I'm thankful he's at IU but he's just not a leader. He's had the keys to the team for over two years and I've yet to see any leadership from him but we've seen plenty of issues that he could have help prevent, yet was involved. If I'm choosing players from this team to lead my team he MIGHT crack the top 5 but not close to top 3.

[Dalton26 16,891]

I don't get why Yogi gets a pass on defense as well. For someone who's supposedly our best defender sure gets beat a lot. I think that whole blow up earlier this year between Thomas and him was because of defense as well. Yogi really needs to do a better job on man to man because it's leading to too many easy buckets. I agree completely that he is a good scorer but not a great pg. I almost blew a lid when he ran that fast break spot up 3 to tie the game. I've seen so many games last year where he did that and missed and completely gave away our momentum. He really needs to step up and be a supposed leader of this team.

For some reason Yogi gets a pass for everything from our fanbase and I'll never understand why.

[Old Friend 8,389]

The kids who are from Indiana that should give a damn about Indiana basketball are the most selfish players on the team right now.

You're right.   Which is why Crean needs to do a better job vetting the kids he signs.

[GnarlyTimGarl 1,414]

Adding my two cents... culture is a big factor. However, it is my opinion that culture is something that must be instilled by the leaders on the team and/or the guys who are on the floor the most getting playing time. I'll use an example...

 

I think Hartman, Zeisloft and Bielfeldt are all good "fits" for the program. That is one Indiana guy and two Illinois guys (whether you think that matters is up to you, but I think it plays somewhat of a role.) They seem to take pride in the program. They know that a 20-10 season is not something that is a cause for celebration at Indiana. They know that Indiana has great tradition because of the excellence that was built before them. If you listen to them speak in public, you can tell they care about the program. They know it means something larger than the 2015-16 team itself. They keep their noses clean and are great representatives off the court. I think that's a large reason why you saw two of those three represent IU at Big Ten Media Day. In my opinion, those three embody and take pride being a Hoosier more so than any other scholarship player on the team. It's clear that they actually have somewhat of an understanding as to what it really means to be a basketball player at Indiana.

 

But on the court, they're the 6th, 7th and 8th men. They're all athletically-limited. And to be honest, they can only do so much. And because of that, they can only supply a supporting role. They can't instill the culture in a supporting role. And if we're looking at our #6-8 guys as the "leaders" who actually embody the identity of a Hoosier, that doesn't speak highly of the first five guys.

 

In my opinion, it comes down to this... we need our #1-5 guys to really embody that IU spirit. They're the ones who set the culture. On the court, that means committing yourself to being a great help defender. It means never giving up on plays. It means always getting your butt in someone's mid-section for a block-out. It means forgoing the highlight play for the easy bucket. It means making that smart, crisp bounce pass. It means sacrificing one's personal stats and highlights for the betterment of the team. Off the court, it means keeping your nose clean. Staying out of the headlines unless your reading to grade school kids or visiting the sick at Riley Children's Hospital. It means getting good grades. It means dealing with the rabid fan-base that can be very, very annoying and cruel at times with a straight-face and letting it slide off your back. Is that a monumental task? You bet it is.

 

But that's why Indiana Basketball is so special. That's why it's a privilege to play here. That's why you are revered by fans for decades when you do it right. There's a reason that the university throws out the phrase "A Tradition of Excellence."

 

Crean's successful teams at IU had leaders who really, REALLY cared about Indiana University and its basketball program. And they proved it with how they conducted themselves on and off the court. They supplied the culture. As slow or nonathletic as Jordan Hulls may have been, you never heard Dakich say he "couldn't guard a chair." And the culture was a big reason behind that.

 

But again, this is just my opinion.

[mdn82 25,473]

IMO this is one of those you are damned if you do and damned if you don't arguments. The culture of this team is primarily due to the 2012 class. Mainly local kids. So either you get the "right" local kids. Or you don't if they aren't winning. IMO it all comes back to coaching. Who is to say the local kids having success elsewhere would have the same here? Yogi was absolutely a need for that team when he came in. I don't give a damn who the coach was they were going after Yogi. 2nd best pg coming in that year in our backyard?

[mdn82 25,473]

Just because we don't necessarily agree with some hypothetical opinion on how to recruit does not mean we do not get it. Sorry for the double negative but it confuses me there is this level of certainty towards this. 75% of our kids yearly are local. He isn't pulling projects from the East Coast. He is pulling nationally recognized kids from the East Coast.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I know there's a group of you that say things like this, and you "like" one anothers' posts all the time. I'm not going to explain it again. You either understand the point or you don't. You clearly don't. Which is fine. It's bigger than your post above. Much bigger than this. Much broader. And Crean needs to do his homework. Nothing is cut and dried and "universal." You're making an elementary point from a very complex reality by ignoring the larger pieces.

If you want to understand, do two things. Ask yourself why it is that major schools from all over the country have high school scouts specifically assigned to Indiana and why so many schools consistently pull kids from Indiana. Why not Minnesota? Why not Tennessee? Why not Georgia? Why not Oklahoma? You know that answer and so do I; but they don't pull grade problems or PIA kids. They do their homework on kids. Crean does not. And that's not just me spouting an opinion. That's words from the mouths of AD's and coaches who've seen it first hand. Who was the guy who told an old board all about Hollowell before he set foot on campus? Think I just made it up? When I ended up being exactly right, did I get lucky?

Second, go take a look at the rosters at Purdue and Butler. We all know that brand of basketball is what wins in the long run, and what all of us want to watch. Purdue is a much better team than Indiana right now, and Butler just beat THEM. Take a peek....and tell me what you see. 80%+ of the contributors on both teams combined are from a 200 mile radius of Indianapolis. Think that's an accident?
Edit : I''m not trying to be combative, just making a point, but....Ask yourself also why Dakich, Tolbert (who I talked to directly about this), Chuck Franz, Grunwald, Scott May, Greg Graham, Pat Graham, Witte, Marty Simmons, and many other former players agree with me. And finally, ask yourself why Brad Stevens has a scout for the Celtics who lives in Indy and whose job is to scout not just the college teams but the high school teams here. He does not have a scout in North Carolina or Florida, for example.

You have stats to backup that 80% contribution? Also, a 200 miles radius will take outside of Indiana into multiple other states.

You try to support your idea by degrading others opinions. You can't argue the reality of the situation here at IU. Our biggest issues have all been driven by the "top" local kids. I'm not saying we shouldn't build up our local recruiting; it's cheap and easy, and maybe some of them are Indiana fans. But you have very little to stand on to support the success of recruiting local recruiting at IU of late.

I'm not sure what local kids you want? A team of Hartman's? Great kid, great attitude, but he's not beating the Duke's and the Kentucky's.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

I know there's a group of you that say things like this, and you "like" one anothers' posts all the time.  I'm not going to explain it again. You either understand the point or you don't.  You clearly don't.  Which is fine.  It's bigger than your post above.  Much bigger than this.  Much broader.  And Crean needs to do his homework.  Nothing is cut and dried and "universal."  You're making an elementary point from a very complex reality by ignoring the larger pieces.

 

If you want to understand, do two things.   Ask yourself why it is that major schools from all over the country have high school scouts specifically assigned to Indiana and why so many schools consistently pull kids from Indiana.  Why not Minnesota?  Why not Tennessee?  Why not Georgia?  Why not Oklahoma?   You know that answer and so do I; but they don't pull grade problems or PIA kids.  They do their homework on kids.  Crean does not.  And that's not just me spouting an opinion.  That's words from the mouths of AD's and coaches who've seen it first hand.   Who was the guy who told an old board all about Hollowell before he set foot on campus?  Think I just made it up?   When I ended up being exactly right, did I get lucky?  

 

Second, go take a look at the rosters at Purdue and Butler.  We all know that brand of basketball is what wins in the long run, and what all of us want to watch.  Purdue is a much better team than Indiana right now, and Butler just beat THEM.  Take a peek....and tell me what you see.  80%+ of the contributors on both teams combined are from a 200 mile radius of Indianapolis.  Think that's an accident?

Edit :  I''m not trying to be combative, just making a point, but....Ask yourself also why Dakich, Tolbert (who I talked to directly about this), Chuck Franz, Grunwald, Scott May, Greg Graham, Pat Graham, Witte, Marty Simmons, and many other former players agree with me.     And finally, ask yourself why Brad Stevens has a scout for the Celtics who lives in Indy and whose job is to scout not just the college teams but the high school teams here.  He does not have a scout in North Carolina or Florida, for example.  

And there's a group of you who think the only people who know how to play basketball live in the midwest and like each others posts. Yet, you don't hear people breaking thing kind of thing out against you in order to undermine your opinion.

 

Here's a point. Run me through the Indiana kids from the last 4 years. Then run me through the East Coast kids. Let me know who "gets it" and "doesn't get it" and color me shocked if you end up with more scholarship Indiana kids on the "gets it" list than not. Look at the team right now. Who do you complain the most about? Troy, Yogi, Blackmon. Who is getting the most praise? Rojo, OG, Collin. One of those groups is 2/3s Indiana kids, one is 2/3s not. Weird.

 

Oh, but that's because we're recruiting the only Indiana kids who don't "get it" right?

 

We have 5 players from your zone. Yogi, Blackmon, Z3, Collin, and Max. And 6 active players from outside. OG, Troy, Juwan, TB, Rojo... uh, Priller.

 

Which group seems to have more kids with high basketball IQ who "get it"?

 

An NBA coach from Indiana watches Indiana players? Stop the presses. How many permanent scouts does Gregg Popovich have in Indianapolis?

 

And comparing intraIndiana teams and saying one is better because they use more Indiana kids is ludicrous. What about all the schools who recruit all of the other kids and go on to win championships? Are those just flukes? You know, the ones outside of Indiana. Do you think Duke should be spending more time recruiting Indy?

 

And like I said before, Grant Gelon is like, the pinnacle Indiana kid right? The kind of kid you expect Butler to recruit. Not highly ranked, good fundamentals, good attitude, grew up in Indiana. He must adore IUBB, so I'm sure he'll have the right attitude on their traditions and need for leadership. Oh, nope, his favorite team is Duke. Well, there are probably other kids around here who grew up loving IUBB, we just need to do our homework!

[AZ Hoosier 6,165]

I'm not sure what local kids you want? A team of Hartman's? Great kid, great attitude, but he's not beating the Duke's and the Kentucky's.

 

Neither are the Yogi Ferrells, the JBJs, or the Troy Williams. In fact, they got pasted by a Duke team several weeks ago...

[Hovadipo 53,375]

Neither are the Yogi Ferrells, the JBJs, or the Troy Williams. In fact, they got pasted by a Duke team several weeks ago...

A team of Hartman's would've gotten concreted...

[8bucks 6,208]

Adding my two cents... culture is a big factor. However, it is my opinion that culture is something that must be instilled by the leaders on the team and/or the guys who are on the floor the most getting playing time. I'll use an example...

I think Hartman, Zeisloft and Bielfeldt are all good "fits" for the program. That is one Indiana guy and two Illinois guys (whether you think that matters is up to you, but I think it plays somewhat of a role.) They seem to take pride in the program. They know that a 20-10 season is not something that is a cause for celebration at Indiana. They know that Indiana has great tradition because of the excellence that was built before them. If you listen to them speak in public, you can tell they care about the program. They know it means something larger than the 2015-16 team itself. They keep their noses clean and are great representatives off the court. I think that's a large reason why you saw two of those three represent IU at Big Ten Media Day. In my opinion, those three embody and take pride being a Hoosier more so than any other scholarship player on the team. It's clear that they actually have somewhat of an understanding as to what it really means to be a basketball player at Indiana.

But on the court, they're the 6th, 7th and 8th men. They're all athletically-limited. And to be honest, they can only do so much. And because of that, they can only supply a supporting role. They can't instill the culture in a supporting role. And if we're looking at our #6-8 guys as the "leaders" who actually embody the identity of a Hoosier, that doesn't speak highly of the first five guys.

In my opinion, it comes down to this... we need our #1-5 guys to really embody that IU spirit. They're the ones who set the culture. On the court, that means committing yourself to being a great help defender. It means never giving up on plays. It means always getting your butt in someone's mid-section for a block-out. It means forgoing the highlight play for the easy bucket. It means making that smart, crisp bounce pass. It means sacrificing one's personal stats and highlights for the betterment of the team. Off the court, it means keeping your nose clean. Staying out of the headlines unless your reading to grade school kids or visiting the sick at Riley Children's Hospital. It means getting good grades. It means dealing with the rabid fan-base that can be very, very annoying and cruel at times with a straight-face and letting it slide off your back. Is that a monumental task? You bet it is.

But that's why Indiana Basketball is so special. That's why it's a privilege to play here. That's why you are revered by fans for decades when you do it right. There's a reason that the university throws out the phrase "A Tradition of Excellence."

Crean's successful teams at IU had leaders who really, REALLY cared about Indiana University and its basketball program. And they proved it with how they conducted themselves on and off the court. They supplied the culture. As slow or nonathletic as Jordan Hulls may have been, you never heard Dakich say he "couldn't guard a chair." And the culture was a big reason behind that.

But again, this is just my opinion.

I agree. I made the same argument when we sent NZ to the media day before he even played a game. Great in the sense that we are adding leaders but it sent a clear warning as well that we were relying on guys at the end of the rotation for leadership. Difficult to get others to follow of you are not in that top 5

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

A team of Hartman's would've gotten concreted...

He's a glue guy, so you'd think he has resistance to pasting. Duke would have to roll disadvantage. 

[USMCHoosier 157]

I don't agree with all the negative stuff about Yogi. I will admit Yogi has not been the leader we all hoped. He has had a couple of off-court missteps and certainly has not been able to herd the group. However, I am of the opinion that a lot of that falls on CTC. CTC has failed to demand a certain culture. Just like he fails to demand defense, he failed to demand personal accountability. Instead, he embraced the idea of helping the kid work through youthful mistakes. Crean is a good guy, I just don't think he is a great head coach. His inability to demand discipline is exactly why he doesn't have a disciplined team.

[mdn82 25,473]

I don't agree with all the negative stuff about Yogi. I will admit Yogi has not been the leader we all hoped. He has had a couple of off-court missteps and certainly has not been able to herd the group. However, I am of the opinion that a lot of that falls on CTC. CTC has failed to demand a certain culture. Just like he fails to demand defense, he failed to demand personal accountability. Instead, he embraced the idea of helping the kid work through youthful mistakes. Crean is a good guy, I just don't think he is a great head coach. His inability to demand discipline is exactly why he doesn't have a disciplined team.

Agreed. How many of these talented players thrive under a different voice?

[Old Friend 8,389]

You have stats to backup that 80% contribution? Also, a 200 miles radius will take outside of Indiana into multiple other states.

You try to support your idea by degrading others opinions. You can't argue the reality of the situation here at IU. Our biggest issues have all been driven by the "top" local kids. I'm not saying we shouldn't build up our local recruiting; it's cheap and easy, and maybe some of them are Indiana fans. But you have very little to stand on to support the success of recruiting local recruiting at IU of late.

I'm not sure what local kids you want? A team of Hartman's? Great kid, great attitude, but he's not beating the Duke's and the Kentucky's.

You can look up the rosters as easily as I can, right?  I think my number's low, but I don't need to do the work again.  I already did before I posted that.  Look it up.  I'm not degrading others' opinions.  I just don't agree with them, and people who are a lot more educated on it than I am don't either.  

 

I have very little to stand on?  Really?  Check out Knight's record.  He didn't leave Indiana, Ohio, or Illinois for his first 17 years, and then finally got Hillman from California before Smart and Garrett.  That's fact.  He then got Haston from Tennessee and Fife from Michigan, but both were great fits for Indiana, as was Moye from Georgia - he was a poster child for the right kind of kid..look up his commitment press conference.  Knight did his homework.  He did NOT on Eggers, Mandeville, Reed, etc.  He let his assistants - including Dakich - do that so he could go hunt and fish with D. Wayne Lukas and Tony LaRussa, and it bit him badly.  He got back involved in the late 1990's and built the roster that eventually went to the Final Four.  Again, that's what happened.  Not an opinion.

 

Here's the problem.  You tell me I degrade others' opinion, but then you give me the line of my having nothing to stand on.  Yeah....I do.  It's called history.  We won multiple Big Ten and national titles with Knight never getting on a plane to do a recruiting visit.   The argument is made all the time that "things have changed and we need to be national now."  Really?  Why?  Where's YOUR leg to stand on?  Why do we need to be national?

 

What if we'd been able to recruit Gordon Heyward, Matt Howard, and Shelvin Mack?   What if we'd had Hummel? Harangody?  Trevon Blueitt?  Luke of Tyler Zeller?  Sean May?  Conley and Oden?   Bryant McIntosh?  PJ Thompson?  Zak Irvin?  Stuart Douglass?  On and on and on and on and on.  Look who we recruited instead.  Start with Jessean Gray-Ashley, and Ben Allen...then move to Stanford Robinson and Max Hoetzel.  Do we need Thomas Bryant if we can get, for example, Swanigan?  Do we need Hoezel if we can get McIntosh?  It all has to fit, but there's more smart, able talent around here per capita than anywhere in the country, and it's not close.  Giving you evidence is not degrading your opinion.  It's supporting my argument.   

 

Seriously...do your homework like I have, and look up the kids from within 200 miles of Bloomington who have, in the last 20 years, to be great college players.  Stop with the easy references like Hartman.   We all know he's a role player.  It's not like he's the sole answer to my point.  Of course you need top talent, but you also have to have kids who understand the game, and the way it needs to be played at Indiana for fans to buy in.  You've been paying attention the last 16 years, right?  What has the diluted local focus done for Indiana?  Where's your evidence it's worked?  The list above is the tip of the iceberg.  

[Miller'sTheMan 1,652]

I know there's a group of you that say things like this, and you "like" one anothers' posts all the time.  I'm not going to explain it again. You either understand the point or you don't.  You clearly don't.  Which is fine.  It's bigger than your post above.  Much bigger than this.  Much broader.  And Crean needs to do his homework.  Nothing is cut and dried and "universal."  You're making an elementary point from a very complex reality by ignoring the larger pieces.

 

If you want to understand, do two things.   Ask yourself why it is that major schools from all over the country have high school scouts specifically assigned to Indiana and why so many schools consistently pull kids from Indiana.  Why not Minnesota?  Why not Tennessee?  Why not Georgia?  Why not Oklahoma?   You know that answer and so do I; but they don't pull grade problems or PIA kids.  They do their homework on kids.  Crean does not.  And that's not just me spouting an opinion.  That's words from the mouths of AD's and coaches who've seen it first hand.   Who was the guy who told an old board all about Hollowell before he set foot on campus?  Think I just made it up?   When I ended up being exactly right, did I get lucky?  

 

Second, go take a look at the rosters at Purdue and Butler.  We all know that brand of basketball is what wins in the long run, and what all of us want to watch.  Purdue is a much better team than Indiana right now, and Butler just beat THEM.  Take a peek....and tell me what you see.  80%+ of the contributors on both teams combined are from a 200 mile radius of Indianapolis.  Think that's an accident?

Edit :  I''m not trying to be combative, just making a point, but....Ask yourself also why Dakich, Tolbert (who I talked to directly about this), Chuck Franz, Grunwald, Scott May, Greg Graham, Pat Graham, Witte, Marty Simmons, and many other former players agree with me.     And finally, ask yourself why Brad Stevens has a scout for the Celtics who lives in Indy and whose job is to scout not just the college teams but the high school teams here.  He does not have a scout in North Carolina or Florida, for example.  

Can you name me one perennial contender that always just gets most of their players from one area? Any team? You keep saying every school but Kentucky and Duke does it... But then I go look at MSU's roster and they have a lot of people outside your 200 mile radius, or I go look at Kansas which is the same deal. North Carolina is in the same boat. I think as Indiana basketball fans we should have higher expectations that trying to mimic what Purdue or Butler do and we should want to be up there with the rest of the blue bloods. Now go look at all of the blue bloods roster and see where most of the kids come from. What you'll figure out is they all have national footprints. That's what we should aspire to be, a perennial contender, not Purdue or Butler. 

[swishinj 27]

Going back to the original quote, a few weeks ago Dan added an important line at the end of it, saying "JBJ can't guard a chair, and more importantly, he doesn't want to guard a chair," which just goes back to say that the IU front court really needs to quickly learn that in order to successful they must decide to put in equal effort on both sides of the floor.