Weak Indiana HS Senior Class

[FindEndNow 198]

It's about team first! Perfect example UK last year! The perfect class but no championship.

That can be said at any school and in pretty much any sport.

[Old Friend 8,389]

This silly argument just won't die and it seems to get sillier every time it reappears. 

 

Any coach who relies on hard and fast rules such as "You have to get Indiana's Mr. Basketball" or "Indiana players are better" instead of evaluating players and team needs on a case by case basis, is at best a lazy thinker and at worst a complete fool. In either case that coach has no place anywhere near a major college basketball program. 

You're taking it as a literal 100% and that's not at all how I mean it.   There's a reason Indiana is Indiana and Purdue's Purdue.   

 

We've taken a nationwide shotgun approach the last several years....how's that working out?   One look at the roster turnover and record should tell you all you need to know, and I'd still love to know what else people are looking at to defend taking "okay" talent from all over the place.   Why did we go get Priller from Texas?  April from Arizona?  Robinson from Maryland?   Hoetzel from California?    Guy-Marc Michele?  Bawa Muniru?  For what?    Why?

 

If we can go get Bryant and other very good players from elsewhere, fine...but that's not what we're doing.   You wouldn't rather have Indiana's best players every year?   Take a look at the list of players from here just in the last 7 years and then let me know your thoughts.   We'd have at least 2 moree Big Ten titles if we'd just kepy 1/3rd of the kids we didn't get or recruit very hard.   Hell, Swanigan said Indiana didn't even recruit him.  He's listed at 6'8".  So's Juwan Morgan.   We recruited Morgan but not Swanigan?   I don't get it.  And I don't know how, given past history can reasonably argue the best strategy is to avoid prioritizing the local kids.  Evidence and history prove otherwise, and again....look at the list of kids we didn't get or go after.

 

The culture at Indiana is different than most places, and we'd have a leg up if the kids we brought in here understood it before they got here.    The kids that understand why it's important to beat Purdue come from around here....and there are plenty of great players from the 4-5 states around Indiana every single year.   The argument won't die until the strategy of recruiting mediocre players from other places pays off, and it sure hasn't since Crean or Davis have been here.  Oladipo is an exception...not the rule.

[KelleyHoosh 2,263]

We should go after stars no matter where they are from. If we are looking for roll players, unless the staff has a particular interest in a guy, the bulk should be from Indiana IMO. Just like every state flagship

[chitown hoosier 743]

I'm glad we never recruited Caleb Swanigan and his handler. From my memory the one year we did recruit a bunch of Indiana kids it turned out to be a bust. For every Bawa there's a Hollowell.

[FindEndNow 198]

You're taking it as a literal 100% and that's not at all how I mean it. There's a reason Indiana is Indiana and Purdue's Purdue.

We've taken a nationwide shotgun approach the last several years....how's that working out? One look at the roster turnover and record should tell you all you need to know, and I'd still love to know what else people are looking at to defend taking "okay" talent from all over the place. Why did we go get Priller from Texas? April from Arizona? Robinson from Maryland? Hoetzel from California? Guy-Marc Michele? Bawa Muniru? For what? Why?

If we can go get Bryant and other very good players from elsewhere, fine...but that's not what we're doing. You wouldn't rather have Indiana's best players every year? Take a look at the list of players from here just in the last 7 years and then let me know your thoughts. We'd have at least 2 moree Big Ten titles if we'd just kepy 1/3rd of the kids we didn't get or recruit very hard. Hell, Swanigan said Indiana didn't even recruit him. He's listed at 6'8". So's Juwan Morgan. We recruited Morgan but not Swanigan? I don't get it. And I don't know how, given past history can reasonably argue the best strategy is to avoid prioritizing the local kids. Evidence and history prove otherwise, and again....look at the list of kids we didn't get or go after.

The culture at Indiana is different than most places, and we'd have a leg up if the kids we brought in here understood it before they got here. The kids that understand why it's important to beat Purdue come from around here....and there are plenty of great players from the 4-5 states around Indiana every single year. The argument won't die until the strategy of recruiting mediocre players from other places pays off, and it sure hasn't since Crean or Davis have been here. Oladipo is an exception...not the rule.

it's isn't the 70's or 80's anymore. It is 2015. It is time to get away from the thinking of back then. Indiana needs to go after the absolute best of the best in the country. Go after multiple Top 10 and Top 20 players. Getting 1 and 2 and dones. To compete on the floor you have to compete on the recruiting trail. We haven't done that successfully. Fans have to understand what era we're in. You want to compete for Nat'l titles or just Top 25 and Top 7 in the conference?

[NRT137 316]

it's isn't the 70's or 80's anymore. It is 2015. It is time to get away from the thinking of back then. Indiana needs to go after the absolute best of the best in the country. Go after multiple Top 10 and Top 20 players. Getting 1 and 2 and dones. To compete on the floor you have to compete on the recruiting trail. We haven't done that successfully. Fans have to understand what era we're in. You want to compete for Nat'l titles or just Top 25 and Top 7 in the conference?

Do you want another season like the one with vonleh? Because that sounds like what you are asking for.

[FindEndNow 198]

Do you want another season like the one with vonleh? Because that sounds like what you are asking for.

The fact we weren't good that year falls completely on coaching. That team should have been able to win. Yogi, Sheehey, Vonleh, Williams, Stan, Hollowell, Etherington, Gordon and Hanner. The "we didn't have shooters" is not an excuse. Plenty of teams get away with it yearly. It's the fact that Crean and company can't adjust to personnel.

[NRT137 316]

We need 3/4 year guys who stay injury free, like oladipo, watford, hulls, yogi, Hartman.
Supposed 1 and dones like vonleh and zeller are nice too, but are often busts: guys like Stan, Fischer, hollowell, Perea have all been disappointing

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

Yeah..Oladipo was.   Forgot him.   That's my fault, and you're right.   But I notice you didn't acknowledge the other examples out there....just the one you felt was "ridiculous."   Selective examples are just that.    Look at the whole picture.  And yes, I will remember I said what I did about Cline if you (HoosierHoops1) remember if he is.

 

I just wonder why 3 decades of evidence is so absolutely irrelevant to some of you.  Why do we need to shotgun recruits from all over the place?   Why doesn't it matter (especially with the 0-3 record against Purdue in Crean's 6th and 7th seasons) that kids truly understand where they are?  Why doesn't regional knowledge matter?   Why is Bryant better than Swanigan?  Because he's coming to IU?    Swanigan was also a McD's all american, had 40 and 19 in the semi state and won the 4A state titie.  Basically averaged 22 and 14 in high school...better numbers than Bryant.   So...why?   I don't think you have any basis for that comment other than to be critical of the other side of the argument.

 

Indiana needs to get Mr. Basketball.   Plain and simple.  Especially if Purdue's becoming a player.  Crean's not prioritized Indiana, and is 0-3 in the last 2 seasons against Purdue...who HAS prioritized in-state kids whether they were highly ranked or not.    Indiana just offered a scholarship to a shooting guard from Reading, PA.   Why??   There aren't shooting guards from Indiana?  Serioulsy?

 

You guys can criticize me all you want.  You can tell me how wrong I am all you want.   The bottom line is there's 30 years of evidence on my side that says if you simply focus on Indiana and the donut states you can build champions and win consistently.   So far, with Crean's way, there is no such evidence, and it's much more of a gamble.   We're shooting with a shotgun.  Minimal damage and very scattered.   I'd rather use a rifle or a laser and focus.   

 

To me, Crean tries to out-think the room and prove he's smarter than everyone else looking for the next Oladipo (again, my fault....he's clearly the poster child).   He makes things too complicated and I think that contributes in large part to the roster turnover.   Ridiculous?   Evidence shows otherwise.

Because I don't think Swanigan fits our roster, style of play and they way our coach coaches, as well as Bryant will.

 

I will remember, as well.

[Alford Bailey 12,350]

Not sayin every kid on the roster should be an Indiana kid by any means BUT we are not utilizing our advantage near enough. Pretty sure there are 200+ D1 schools who would love to be smack dab in the middle of year in and year out one of the hottest recruiting areas in the country.

[Alford Bailey 12,350]

My biggest fear is that we'll hold on to Crean for a year or two longer than we should, and Purdue is going to take advantage of his lame duck status and start raking in the '16 and '17 kids that we want. 

 

 

Don't think Painter isn't letting these kids know about Crean's declining popularity. 

Already happening.

[JSHoosier 19,819]

Not sayin every kid on the roster should be an Indiana kid by any means BUT we are not utilizing our advantage near enough. Pretty sure there are 200+ D1 schools who would love to be smack dab in the middle of year in and year out one of the hottest recruiting areas in the country.

This is where I am.  Very very few programs are located right in the heart of a recruiting hotbed, that's something we should be trying to get the absolute most benefit from.

[Old Friend 8,389]

it's isn't the 70's or 80's anymore. It is 2015. It is time to get away from the thinking of back then. Indiana needs to go after the absolute best of the best in the country. Go after multiple Top 10 and Top 20 players. Getting 1 and 2 and dones. To compete on the floor you have to compete on the recruiting trail. We haven't done that successfully. Fans have to understand what era we're in. You want to compete for Nat'l titles or just Top 25 and Top 7 in the conference?

What are you really asking me?   The way we're doing things (looking all over for mediocre players) is resulting in the 7th place finishes you reference.  I invite you to simply look at the list of kids from Indiana alone (and I don't at all think we need to stick with just those kids, but we need to focus on and prioritize kids from Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan).   We're not getting multiple top 10 kids from elsewhere.   We're not getting multiple top 50 kids from elsewhere.  If we were, and if we'd been getting results...you're right.   But we haven't.   We're getting mostly top 100-150 kids, and if you think talent like Verdell Jones and AJ Anunoby can win us titles, you're nuts.   Those are the kids I have little interest in if it means we pass on local kids.   Why do we need a top 100 shooting guard from Pennsylvania, which we just offered this week?  We can't find a great shooter from within 80 miles of campus??   Bull.

 

To kids from elsewhere, Indiana is now just another school, and the administration did that to itself.  The ones from around here understand rivalries and the Big Ten conference.  Robert Johnson and Max Hoetzel both said they had no idea of the tradition when they got here, and that's simply not okay because the kids at Purdue DO understand the rivalry; DO understand the Big Ten, and we're 0-3 against them the last 2 seasons with their effort far out-shining ours.  It's an important game to their roster...even to the middle and bottom guys; it is not to a large part of ours.

 

I'm not sure what to say because I want to see things change from 7th place finishes because they're not good enough (read almost everything I've posted), and we've done that with kids from all over the place.  I don't want to lose kids (the best local players) to Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, and especially Purdue every year and settle for Peter Jurkin, Stanford Robinson, and Tim Priller.   You don't see that as a problem?     If the kids we were getting were all Bryant or equivalent, of course it doesn't matter...but that's not happening.   We're offering scholarships to top 120-150 kids from all over the place.  That's my problem.  Not the top end.

 

We've seen what we can do with both Davis and Crean with kids from the east and south.   Yes...I want to compete for and win national titles...which we did for two and a half decades when recruiting primarily the local area.  You're making MY point,   It doesn't matter what year it is.   Going back through the Davis years, you don't think we'd have been better off prioritizing Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Josh McRoberts, George Hill, any of the Teague's, Mitch McGary, Gordon Heyward, Tyler Zeller, Zack Novak, Kellen Dunham, Matt Howard, Walter Offutt, Chase Stigall, Stuart Douglass, Gary Harris, etc, etc, etc.?  (There are plenty of examples...those are just a few)   What about kids from Illinois or Ohio?  

 

You don't really believe the best we could do with even 20% of that group over the course of time is 7th place finishes, do you?    You don't really believe the best we could do with even 20% of that group over the course of time is 7th place finishes, do you?    There's a reason coaches from all over the country recruit Indiana heavily, and we don't seem to place any priority on it.  Kids from around here are just like any others...and I disagree.

[FindEndNow 198]

What are you really asking me? The way we're doing things (looking all over for mediocre players) is resulting in the 7th place finishes you reference. I invite you to simply look at the list of kids from Indiana alone (and I don't at all think we need to stick with just those kids, but we need to focus on and prioritize kids from Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan). We're not getting multiple top 10 kids from elsewhere. We're not getting multiple top 50 kids from elsewhere. If we were, and if we'd been getting results...you're right. But we haven't. We're getting mostly top 100-150 kids, and if you think talent like Verdell Jones and AJ Anunoby can win us titles, you're nuts. Those are the kids I have little interest in if it means we pass on local kids. Why do we need a top 100 shooting guard from Pennsylvania, which we just offered this week? We can't find a great shooter from within 80 miles of campus?? Bull.

To kids from elsewhere, Indiana is now just another school, and the administration did that to itself. The ones from around here understand rivalries and the Big Ten conference. Robert Johnson and Max Hoetzel both said they had no idea of the tradition when they got here, and that's simply not okay because the kids at Purdue DO understand the rivalry; DO understand the Big Ten, and we're 0-3 against them the last 2 seasons with their effort far out-shining ours. It's an important game to their roster...even to the middle and bottom guys; it is not to a large part of ours.

I'm not sure what to say because I want to see things change from 7th place finishes because they're not good enough (read almost everything I've posted), and we've done that with kids from all over the place. I don't want to lose kids (the best local players) to Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, and especially Purdue every year and settle for Peter Jurkin, Stanford Robinson, and Tim Priller. You don't see that as a problem? If the kids we were getting were all Bryant or equivalent, of course it doesn't matter...but that's not happening. We're offering scholarships to top 120-150 kids from all over the place. That's my problem. Not the top end.

We've seen what we can do with both Davis and Crean with kids from the east and south. Yes...I want to compete for and win national titles...which we did for two and a half decades when recruiting primarily the local area. You're making MY point, It doesn't matter what year it is. Going back through the Davis years, you don't think we'd have been better off prioritizing Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Josh McRoberts, George Hill, any of the Teague's, Mitch McGary, Gordon Heyward, Tyler Zeller, Zack Novak, Kellen Dunham, Matt Howard, Walter Offutt, Chase Stigall, Stuart Douglass, Gary Harris, etc, etc, etc.? (There are plenty of examples...those are just a few) What about kids from Illinois or Ohio?

You don't really believe the best we could do with even 20% of that group over the course of time is 7th place finishes, do you? You don't really believe the best we could do with even 20% of that group over the course of time is 7th place finishes, do you? There's a reason coaches from all over the country recruit Indiana heavily, and we don't seem to place any priority on it. Kids from around here are just like any others...and I disagree.

I'm saying we need to recruit the absolute best of the best like Kentucky, Kansas and Duke. I don't care where they're from.

[TheWatShot 13,641]

I look at it like this: Crean isn't exactly a basketball mastermind. I'd much rather have players who benefitted from strong coaching in their high school years as opposed to freak athletes who need a better sense of direction when they don't have the ball. 

 

 

And I've taken crap for my opinion on this before, but I firmly believe the reason Crean has to go to Timbuktu and back to get players like Priller and April is because his roster/program management has burned too many bridges with high school coaches here. 

[Old Friend 8,389]

I'm saying we need to recruit the absolute best of the best like Kentucky, Kansas and Duke. I don't care where they're from.

That formula has not worked for Crean or Davis.   Knight didn't try it. He focused and prioritized locally.   I don't agree with you.  I think we need to first prioritize the local kids because there's top national talent within 150 miles of IU's campus every single season.  If we get those kids and build a program, then we have a shot at consistent national kids.  Right now, that's a pipe dream.

 

Like I said, to most kids, Indiana is now just another school, and it's our own fault.   It's proven we cannot get the top talent consistently, so we're recruiting nationally but we're getting mediocre players while passing on local kids.   If we could get the same kids as Duke, fine...but we can't.   We get one every two or three years.  Duke gets three every year.  The kids from around here can play....Wisconsin generally recruits their local area and you see what they do.  Michigan State does the same thing.   Look at their rosters.  You asked me if I wanted titles?   Look at what they do every year, then look at what Indiana's doing.   Indiana should be no different than those schools. 

[FindEndNow 198]

That formula has not worked for Crean or Davis. Knight didn't try it. He focused and prioritized locally. I don't agree with you. I think we need to first prioritize the local kids because there's top national talent within 150 miles of IU's campus every single season. If we get those kids and build a program, then we have a shot at consistent national kids. Right now, that's a pipe dream.

Like I said, to most kids, Indiana is now just another school, and it's our own fault. It's proven we cannot get the top talent consistently, so we're recruiting nationally but we're getting mediocre players while passing on local kids. If we could get the same kids as Duke, fine...but we can't. We get one every two or three years. Duke gets three every year. The kids from around here can play....Wisconsin generally recruits their local area and you see what they do. Michigan State does the same thing. Look at their rosters. You asked me if I wanted titles? Look at what they do every year, then look at what Indiana's doing. Indiana should be no different than those schools.

You have to have the right coach. Kids commit to the coach and adopt the school.

[IU Bud 445]

Your first line is an important one.  For Indiana to succeed consistently, unless we can suddenly become Duke and get whoever we want, we have to do better in-state.  Cline and Swanigan are both very good.   And there are others.    It's important to have kids who understand why it's important to beat Purdue, just like they always have kids who want nothing more than to beat Indiana....and they play like it.   It's important for kids to understand the priority of winning the Big Ten and who don't play every game like "it's just another game."   That's how we look to me....and sometimes, it's good enough to win.   The last 2 seasons?   We have a losing record in conference; and it's not good enough.

 

I'm not saying that we only need kids from Indiana or even the states surrounding Indiana, but when you have Noah Vonleh on your team, and he plays like he doesn't give a damn (endemic to east coast kids, in my humble opinion), you're not going to win rivalry or conference road games - unless you have a roster full of talent; but even then, that's not a roster I'm interested in rooting for.   You're going to have a losing record against Northwestern.   There's a lack of intensity with Indiana.   Getting kids from the east coast brings talent, but does it bring toughness?  Does it bring basketball IQ?  Everybody loves the way Hartman plays, right?   Everybody loves Yogi's heart.  Loved the way Zeller played.  Same with Hulls.  Coverdale.  Fife.  Etc.   Other than AJ Moye, who - from a state outside Indiana and the donut states - has truly sold out for IU in the last 15 years?  Maybe a handful..but I can't name many.   Hornsby did.  Sheehey to some extent, but he was far better when he had great talent around him.   When it was time for him to lead as a senior, even when he had one of the top point guards in the country and a lottery pick big man, his team was very weak.   Watford?  Eh...sort of.   Not much effort on defense.  

 

Ryan Cline will be one of those guys we wish we had.  

It doesn't take long for our players to understand the rivalry with Turdue. If they don't feel it in the days before the game, they feel the added energy from the crowd.  I don't think our players an leave West Lafayette without hating Turdue ... and feeling a little sorry for them.

[FindEndNow 198]

Not sayin every kid on the roster should be an Indiana kid by any means BUT we are not utilizing our advantage near enough. Pretty sure there are 200+ D1 schools who would love to be smack dab in the middle of year in and year out one of the hottest recruiting areas in the country.

Indiana has Indy and Chicago. And we don't even use Chicago which has been a complete joke. Coaching staff is more worried about New York, Maryland, Virginia and Massachusetts.

[MemphisHoosier 2,048]

Indiana has Indy and Chicago. And we don't even use Chicago which has been a complete joke. Coaching staff is more worried about New York, Maryland, Virginia and Massachusetts.

 

Could be wrong here, but I get the impression that the program, like many others, has intentionally stayed out of Chicago due to the nature, $$$$$, of recruiting the region.  This is not to say recruiting in NY, Maryland, etc. is any cleaner, but dirty recruiting in Chicago seems to be a more accepted belief.  

 

Izzo commented about recruiting the area earlier in the year, and his thoughts, in my mind, were very telling...

 

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/michigan-state/spartans/2015/03/10/tom-izzo-michigan-state-recruiting/24709699/

 

"MSU reportedly was the longtime leader for the Chicago big man, but Alexander abruptly cut off contact in the fall of 2013 and committed to Kansas. Shortly after that, Izzo was asked at Big Ten basketball media day in Chicago about recruiting in that city. (He also had lost out on Chicagoans Jabari Parker (Duke, class of 2013), Jahlil Okafor (Duke, 2014) and Tyler Ulis (Kentucky, 2014)).

"Good players, a lot of coaches, a lot of coaches and good players," Izzo said of recruiting Chicago, then added: "There's a lot of middlemen."