Crean Recruitment in the Midwest?

[Class of '66 Old Fart 84,767]

Saw the following quote from Frank Kaminsky:  "We take pride in fact we're kind of misfits coming out of high school who not everyone wanted."    Maybe CTC should stop chasing 'names' because it doesn't seem to be working out too well for IU.  I'd gladly take Frank and his band of misfits in a heartbeat.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Saw the following quote from Frank Kaminsky:  "We take pride in fact we're kind of misfits coming out of high school who not everyone wanted."    Maybe CTC should stop chasing 'names' because it doesn't seem to be working out too well for IU.  I'd gladly take Frank and his band of misfits in a heartbeat.

Ya' Old Fart, this is exactly a point of contention I've had with Crean since he got here.   He doesn't seem to have any ability at all to truly spot those off-the-beaten-path kids that can develop.   The "misfits."  Some coaches can see those guys, and some cannot.  Tom Crean cannot.  His shots at "diamonds in the rough" have all been huge misses.   Guys like Priller and April, who I think any decent basketball fan can see are never going to be productive Big Ten players.   Guys like Bawa Muniru, Tijan Jobe, or Guy-Marc Michele (thank you, Steve McClain...not sorry to see you go).    

 

Other guys he goes after puzzle me time and time and time again.  Why again did we recruit Stanford Robinson from Maryland?    Why did we need Max Hoetzel from California?    Can we do no better than this at Indiana University?   My Lord...if all he did was focus on Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan, he could get enough terrific players to build and rebuild rosters year in and year out.  

 

But he seems to always - and I mean every time - go for a quick fix or some missing piece (maybe diamond in the rough) he thinks no other Big Ten school will find, and he hopes that piece is BETTER.       Like he's going surprise people with the kids he finds far away from our borders and would look brilliant if he did.   Problem being....the players around here are just better and better team guys because of the style that's taught and played here.   It's not NYC playground "And 1" style basketball.   Nobody plays like they're trying to earn a nickname.    Someone posted a terrific map of where the players from the Final Four came from....and it tells a great story.   There is no way a coach at Indiana ever needs to set foot on a recruiting trip in California.   Maybe for a one-player exception once in a great while for some difference maker who every other program wants, but even then, we've had a bunch of McD's All Americans from schools within 150 miles of Assembly Hall.  Crean belongs at a place where basketball is not the kingpin and incredibly visible.   Clemson.  Alabama.  Virginia Tech.  Where an NIT berth is a positive.    He's simply not right for Indiana.

 

We call this "out-thinking the room."   And Crean is a champ at it.

[redherring 42]

I would love to see a coach recruit kids only from Indiana and let's see where that gets IU. Probably won't ever happen, though

[Class of '66 Old Fart 84,767]

Ya' Old Fart, this is exactly a point of contention I've had with Crean since he got here.   He doesn't seem to have any ability at all to truly spot those off-the-beaten-path kids that can develop.   The "misfits."  Some coaches can see those guys, and some cannot.  Tom Crean cannot.  His shots at "diamonds in the rough" have all been huge misses.   Guys like Priller and April, who I think any decent basketball fan can see are never going to be productive Big Ten players.   Guys like Bawa Muniru, Tijan Jobe, or Guy-Marc Michele (thank you, Steve McClain...not sorry to see you go).    

 

Other guys he goes after puzzle me time and time and time again.  Why again did we recruit Stanford Robinson from Maryland?    Why did we need Max Hoetzel from California?    Can we do no better than this at Indiana University?   My Lord...if all he did was focus on Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan, he could get enough terrific players to build and rebuild rosters year in and year out.  

 

But he seems to always - and I mean every time - go for a quick fix or some missing piece (maybe diamond in the rough) he thinks no other Big Ten school will find, and he hopes that piece is BETTER.       Like he's going surprise people with the kids he finds far away from our borders and would look brilliant if he did.   Problem being....the players around here are just better and better team guys because of the style that's taught and played here.   It's not NYC playground "And 1" style basketball.   Nobody plays like they're trying to earn a nickname.    Someone posted a terrific map of where the players from the Final Four came from....and it tells a great story.   There is no way a coach at Indiana ever needs to set foot on a recruiting trip in California.   Maybe for a one-player exception once in a great while for some difference maker who every other program wants, but even then, we've had a bunch of McD's All Americans from schools within 150 miles of Assembly Hall.  Crean belongs at a place where basketball is not the kingpin and incredibly visible.   Clemson.  Alabama.  Virginia Tech.  Where an NIT berth is a positive.    He's simply not right for Indiana.

 

We call this "out-thinking the room."   And Crean is a champ at it.

Grudgingly you do have to give him credit for recruiting Will and Vic and the jury is still out on Troy. 

[mdn82 25,510]

I would love to see a coach recruit kids only from Indiana and let's see where that gets IU. Probably won't ever happen, though

It wouldn't happen but you should rarely leave the state for 3*.

[redherring 42]

It wouldn't happen but you should rarely leave the state for 3*.

Why?

[mdn82 25,510]

Why?

Because there is rarely a need to. Plenty of high 3* here who typically aren't projects and have bbiq. Vic is really the only 3* we have left state for you couldn't find here. Hartman is a perfect example of a 3* that isn't sexy but is who you need.

[TheWatShot 14,000]

Why?

 

I'd rather have a 2 star recruit from Indiana that understands the game well and is fundamentally sound than a 4 star recruit like Stanford Robinson that has no clue what to do without the ball in his hands. 

[redherring 42]

Because there is rarely a need to. Plenty of high 3* here who typically aren't projects and have bbiq. Vic is really the only 3* we have left state for you couldn't find here. Hartman is a perfect example of a 3* that isn't sexy but is who you need.

Yet people complain that we got Hartman instead of Irvin.

I don't disagree with the essence of your point. I just think it's really splitting hairs when Crean has prioritized the hell out of Indiana. Not every kid wants to go to IU. There's always going to be a laundry list of names. For one, there isn't enough room. And two, it's really hard to predict. Look at RJ Hunter. I don't remember anyone here clamoring for IU to recruit him or G. Robinson. Only after the fact... Revisionist history. I still maintain the only Indiana kid that mattered that IU didn't get was Gary Harris. Lyles, too. But Crean got him to see the vision and then got screwed. Sh!t happens.

I don't get the projects at all. I can't argue any of that. Peter was a good prospect but the others... I'd rather have a kid like Jeff Howard

[Old Friend 8,389]

Grudgingly you do have to give him credit for recruiting Will and Vic and the jury is still out on Troy. 

FWIW, I don't give him credit for Will.  I liked Will...don't get me wrong.  But Will Sheehey plays in almost every conference in Indiana, and there's a clone of his playing right now (maybe he graduated...don't know) at Fishers and another one at Evansville Reitz.      Will Sheehey was a great role player on a great team, but on his own as a senior, and WITH an NBA lottery pick, his team missed the post season.  There was nothing special about WIll Sheehey that Crean couldn't have found, probably within 30 minutes of Bloomington.    

 

Oladipo worked his A$$ off to become what he did.  He played on that team USA group the summer after his freshman season, and found a trainer he liked....and went to work.   Crean didn't develop him.  Oladipo developed Oladipo.    I do give credit to Crean for finding a kid of that character.   Williams is a very poor fundamental basketball player.  He's a freak athlete who plays basketball.  You're talking about a kid who led his team in turnovers, and as freaky athletic as he is, had half as many blocks as Colin Hartman and has very little in the way of a perimeter game.   Not to bash him or criticize you...   My way of viewing basketball players has less to do with "the simple positives of the kids who said yes" than it does with what we could be if Crean put any real effort into building a team with kids whose abilities make everyone else better and a program that can succeed year in and year out.  You cannot do that with Will Sheehey and Troy Williams.   

[Old Friend 8,389]

Yet people complain that we got Hartman instead of Irvin.

I don't disagree with the essence of your point. I just think it's really splitting hairs when Crean has prioritized the hell out of Indiana. Not every kid wants to go to IU. There's always going to be a laundry list of names. For one, there isn't enough room. And two, it's really hard to predict. Look at RJ Hunter. I don't remember anyone here clamoring for IU to recruit him or G. Robinson. Only after the fact... Revisionist history. I still maintain the only Indiana kid that mattered that IU didn't get was Gary Harris. Lyles, too. But Crean got him to see the vision and then got screwed. **** happens.

I don't get the projects at all. I can't argue any of that. Peter was a good prospect but the others... I'd rather have a kid like Jeff Howard

It's not just Indiana.  It's the midwest.   He had no business hiring an assistant coach because he has "strong east coast recruiting ties."   When he made that hire last summer, I lost all faith in his ability to succeed at Indiana.   No coach in his right mind would think Indiana needs to develop east coast recruiting ties; and that told me he did not prioritize Indiana or the midwest...which is a death sentence at this school.   Kids from the east coast play basketball differently than kids do in the midwest.  They are coached differently, usually with much more focus on "with ball" and "off dribble" plays.  Help side defense, for example is not taught as well as it is here.  

 

There's a reason there really are few great basketball powers in the northeast.  You get the flash in the pan year like Villanova had, but they were a quick exit in the NCAA tournament; but there's a reason that conference at different times wanted Notre Dame, Butler, Marquette, etc.  Syracuse is another one people can point to; but they play a gimmicky zone defense and have a hall of fame coach who teaches it...and he recruits to it.   Other than that?  Who?   I get UNC and Duke; and both of those programs recruit a unique type of kid, too.   But think of Kansas, Wichita State, Northern Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Louisville, Notre Dame, Butler, Xavier, Ohio State...before you ever get to teams like Illinois or Michigan (who was in the final game not long ago!)   All of these schools who recruit strongly in this area are always in the conversation in their respective conferences and all beat top 10-20 teams on a very consistent basis.

 

People don't generally follow recruiting closely enough to talk specifically about one kid or another.  Not our job.  It IS Crean's job. So when I see kids like Bryant McIntosh or Dee Davis (for whom there is NO excuse..he's from Bloomington!); who I knew little to nothing about when they were being recruited, having success at out of state schools (and playing major roles in beating Indiana!) while we watch Stanford Robinson switch shooting hands in the middle of his stay here....it upsets me.   It upsets me when I read that Hoetzel and Johnson didn't know the history and tradition when they accepted scholarships and didn't learn it until they'd been on campus for a little while. Think Duke or Kansas have that problem?   

 

There's a reason bellweather programs are bellweather programs; and it's not because they shotgun recruiting and hope the kids that do say yes can become a decent team; and then clean a couple out for the next shiny thing if they don't.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

Yet people complain that we got Hartman instead of Irvin.

I don't disagree with the essence of your point. I just think it's really splitting hairs when Crean has prioritized the hell out of Indiana. Not every kid wants to go to IU. There's always going to be a laundry list of names. For one, there isn't enough room. And two, it's really hard to predict. Look at RJ Hunter. I don't remember anyone here clamoring for IU to recruit him or G. Robinson. Only after the fact... Revisionist history. I still maintain the only Indiana kid that mattered that IU didn't get was Gary Harris. Lyles, too. But Crean got him to see the vision and then got screwed. **** happens.

I don't get the projects at all. I can't argue any of that. Peter was a good prospect but the others... I'd rather have a kid like Jeff Howard

 

I actually saw RJ Hunter at one of the Indiana All-Star games and said then and there he would be a good one.  Good shooter, good length, strong fundamentals (dad is a coach), and just played the game so smooth. 

 

On a different note, can Crean even get those 3* Indiana kids now or are players and high school coaches too weary of an off-season Creaning?

[Old Friend 8,389]

I actually saw RJ Hunter at one of the Indiana All-Star games and said then and there he would be a good one.  Good shooter, good length, strong fundamentals (dad is a coach), and just played the game so smooth. 

 

On a different note, can Crean even get those 3* Indiana kids now or are players and high school coaches too weary of an off-season Creaning?

You nailed it.   Yes.  They are.  Which is one reason he needs to go.   What kid in his right mind would come to Indiana while Crean's here?  He'll get a few..many borderline, late signees, etc.   But the solid glue guys and program changers who'll stick around 4 years if allowed?   Nope...not very many of those kids.

[8bucks 6,452]

You nailed it. Yes. They are. Which is one reason he needs to go. What kid in his right mind would come to Indiana while Crean's here? He'll get a few..many borderline, late signees, etc. But the solid glue guys and program changers who'll stick around 4 years if allowed? Nope...not very many of those kids.

Dakich said basically the same thing about his son. As a walk on he could choose from a few programs but he chose against IU as much as he chose Michigan.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Dakich said basically the same thing about his son. As a walk on he could choose from a few programs but he chose against IU as much as he chose Michigan.

I know 100% that Trevon Blueitt didn't consider Indiana because of Crean's revolving door and moving parts.  They had something like 4 walk-on's at the time, a couple of which played his position, and he didn't know if or where he'd fit, so he eliminated Indiana.   Crean's just made a big mess, and he's not taking steps to clean it up; which adds to my firm belief that this will ultimately end well.   It's not like it's any big secret...and if I know it, I'd imagine the important people do, also.

[mdn82 25,510]

Schoosier, you had a great point until your last line. No need for it man. We had to get rid of a great rebuttal because you couldn't resist throwing in a pot shot.

[OliviaPope40 6,517]

Got to close the borders.

[JSHoosier 20,229]

We saw that graphic that was posted on the board and the concentration of players from the Midwest.  Why in the world do we really need a pipeline to the East coast?  You could place your focus primarily on Indiana and the Midwest end up with a pretty loaded team, and the fact that we are located right in the heart is an advantage many programs don't have.

[Old Friend 8,389]

We saw that graphic that was posted on the board and the concentration of players from the Midwest.  Why in the world do we really need a pipeline to the East coast?  You could place your focus primarily on Indiana and the Midwest end up with a pretty loaded team, and the fact that we are located right in the heart is an advantage many programs don't have.

Just look at the kids from Indiana in the last decade who have gone to just Michigan, Michigan State, and Ohio State.   We get half of those kids to come to Indiana, we've probably got another Final Four or two.   

[Bobman1 2,909]

Crean should pick a certain style of offense and defense. Then go to the Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin all star games and recruit kids straight from there. Kids who don't smoke in the offseason and have a work ethic similar to Vic's. Kids who he sees potential in and who he can develop. Kids who fit HIS style of play, Indiana's style of play. He shouldn't wait til the top freshman lists come out and recruit those kids and fail. He's like a Calipari only a much worse version. Calipari is a good basketball coach, he's a great recruiter and can turn good players into great players. (Willie Cauley Stein). Crean could never develop a raw 7 footer (Peter Jurkin and Jeremiah April.) We need a coach who can take after Beilein, Izzo, and Ryan, a coach who gets players to want to come to IU to play in a certain style of play. I also want to see a team that is ready to face a 2-3 zone, or a team that can make mid game adjustments, or a coach who can develop a player. We need a coach who gets good kids and turns them into great kids, on the court and off.