Offensive Style and Sets Next Year

[MikeRoberts 7,028]

What is the perceived style of play for next year? I think we all imagined 1 under the basket big and 4 guys that were interchangeable to varying degrees but it seems like we will be back to having 2 under the basket bigs.

It would be nice to get a kid that can break down his defender and get to the hoop but it doesn’t seem like that is the direction with 2 bigs under there

[Stuhoo 80,920]

I would think Ware will allow us to run a ton of horns. Maybe Walker can finish well enough to run it too. Horns is a dream set for Xavier Johnson; he should use this as well as any guard nationally. Pre-Xavier injury we ran some of this with Trayce and X; sometimes put Race in the short corner. Malik/Sparks would fill Race's spot this year if we singled the horn.

https://www.coachesclipboard.net/HornsOffense.html

Last year Woody liked Zoom offense with JHS as the feature. Look for Zoom offense with Mack on the curl next season. Also works really well with CJ's skill set if he's improved. A good way to get Cupps distributing while keeping him out of the trees:

https://www.hooperuniversity.com/breakdowns/northern-iowa-5-out-offense

Woody has used a lot of scissors cuts in the past. With a good high post passer like Malik look for this with X and Gallo cutting and Ke'lel and Mack on the wings. With bigs that can pop out and quick cutters like X, Gallo, and Jakai this could be a staple. This wouldn't fit as well for Cupps, Banks, Gunn, Sparks IMO.

https://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/37810/recreation_and_sports/basketball_fundamental_play___scissors_cut.html

@BGleas, what say you?

[Adillac 953]

Sparks and Malik are the only back to the basket guys dominant guys and they likely won't play much together. Walker is a slasher. He is almost exactly like Banks in size and handle. 

Ware is going to post up when it is opportunistic but i imagine he will be floating around a lot. 

Mackenzie will not be posting up unless it is a mismatch is my guess. 

I agree though that I'd like us to have another guard who can create a mismatch other than X. 

 

[Stuhoo 80,920]

36 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I would think Ware will allow us to run a ton of horns. Maybe Walker can finish well enough to run it too. Horns is a dream set for Xavier Johnson; he should use this as well as any guard nationally. Pre-Xavier injury we ran some of this with Trayce and X; sometimes put Race in the short corner. Malik/Sparks would fill Race's spot this year if we singled the horn.

https://www.coachesclipboard.net/HornsOffense.html

Last year Woody liked Zoom offense with JHS as the feature. Look for Zoom offense with Mack on the curl next season. Also works really well with CJ's skill set if he's improved. A good way to get Cupps distributing while keeping him out of the trees:

https://www.hooperuniversity.com/breakdowns/northern-iowa-5-out-offense

Woody has used a lot of scissors cuts in the past. With a good high post passer like Malik look for this with X and Gallo cutting and Ke'lel and Mack on the wings. With bigs that can pop out and quick cutters like X, Gallo, and Jakai this could be a staple. This wouldn't fit as well for Cupps, Banks, Gunn, Sparks IMO.

https://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/37810/recreation_and_sports/basketball_fundamental_play___scissors_cut.html

@BGleas, what say you?

Of note:

None of the three sets I described are three out/two in offensive schemes. Last year we ran a lot (more than Woody would prefer I think) of a three out two in offense, with Trayce catching in the post and Race or Malik opposite short corner.

I would imagine we will see very little of that this year. Some five out with Malik in the high post, or some one in, four out with a diving second big instead of one camping in the opposite short corner.

[Demo 20,119]

10 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Of note:

None of the three sets I described are three out/two in offensive schemes. Last year we ran a lot (more than Woody would prefer I think) of a three out two in offense, with Trayce catching in the post and Race or Malik opposite short corner.

I would imagine we will see very little of that this year. Some five out with Malik in the high post, or some one in, four out with a diving second big instead of one camping in the opposite short corner.

No thoughts yet on what it might look like, but on that Bahamas trip in ‘21 they ran a fair  amount of 4 out motion that they completely punted by the time the season rolled around. The current personnel grouping looks more agreeable to that sort of thing.

[Stuhoo 80,920]

Just now, Demo said:

No thoughts yet on what it might look like, but on that Bahamas trip in ‘21 they ran a fair  amount of 4 out motion that they completely punted by the time the season rolled around. The current personnel grouping looks more agreeable to that sort of thing.

Fair to say Race just wasn't built for the 'NBA-style' offense Woody thought he'd use. 

I mean, look at those four/five out actions that I linked, and tell me where Race Thompson fit in any of them.

[BGleas 7,905]

On 5/15/2023 at 2:23 PM, Stuhoo said:

Of note:

None of the three sets I described are three out/two in offensive schemes. Last year we ran a lot (more than Woody would prefer I think) of a three out two in offense, with Trayce catching in the post and Race or Malik opposite short corner.

I would imagine we will see very little of that this year. Some five out with Malik in the high post, or some one in, four out with a diving second big instead of one camping in the opposite short corner.

My thought on all of this that the lineups are going to be interesting. Completely agree Woodson wants to run a more open, guard oriented offense, as he's directly said. 

I'd imagine a lot of the sets you've mentioned will be in play or similar. 

The player I'm most curious about at this point is Reneau. Great talent and I'm a fan, but I also think he's a bit of a square peg in a round hole in terms of what Woodson wants to do. 

He's still more of a post-up, paint big. He showed some flashes of a perimeter shot early last season, but if I'm Reneau I'm making 300-500 3pt shots everyday this offseason. 

I see us running a lot of ball screen action with Ware, and Ware is not a post-up, paint big, he's more of a rim-runner, which is great but you also don't want Reneau standing in the paint while that's happening, so would be great if he can knock down spot up 3's while that is happening. 

I think Woodson prefers 4's like Mgbako (not saying he's playing the 4), Anthony Walker, previous IU guys like Troy Williams and Watford, or like how he deployed Josh Smith and Carmelo in Atlanta and NYC. 

Again, if I'm Reneau I'm spending all summer becoming a reliable spot-up 3pt shooter. If I'm Kaleb Banks I'm working my butt off all summer with the mentality that I'm beating out Reneau for that 4 spot so we have an ultra-athletiic, interchangeable lineup of Ware, Banks, Mgbako, Galloway and XJ. 

Not saying Banks starts, just saying if I'm him then that's my mentality this summer. 

But again, a very wordy, long way of saying Reneau is the wildcard here in my opinion in terms of style of play. 

[HoosierHoopster 7,017]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

My thought on all of this that the lineups are going to be interesting. Completely agree Woodson wants to run a more open, guard oriented offense, as he's directly said. 

I'd imagine a lot of the sets you've mentioned will be in play or similar. 

The player I'm most curious about at this point is Reneau. Great talent and I'm a fan, but I also think he's a bit of a square peg in a round hole in terms of what Woodson wants to do. 

He's still more of a post-up, paint big. He showed some flashes of a perimeter shot early last season, but if I'm Reneau I'm making 300-500 3pt shots everyday this offseason. 

I see us running a lot of ball screen action with Ware, and Ware is not a post-up, paint big, he's more of a rim-runner, which is great but you also don't want Reneau standing in the paint while that's happening, so would be great if he can knock down spot up 3's while that is happening. 

I think Woodson prefers 4's like Mgbako (not saying he's playing the 4), Anthony Walker, previous IU guys like Troy Williams and Watford, or like how he deployed Josh Smith and Carmelo in Atlanta and NYC. 

Again, if I'm Reneau I'm spending all summer becoming a reliable spot-up 3pt shooter. If I'm Kaleb Banks I'm working my butt off all summer with the mentality that I'm beating out Reneau for that 4 spot so we have an ultra-athletiic, interchangeable lineup of Ware, Banks, Mgbako, Galloway and XJ. 

Not saying Banks starts, just saying if I'm him then that's my mentality this summer. 

But again, a very wordy, long way of saying Reneau is the wildcard here in my opinion in terms of style of play. 

Agree, but his footwork is so refined and he’s mobile, would think we’ll see a fair amount of P&R and P&P action with him with some floor spreading to help him/space. Maybe he plays more the small 5 role this season

[BGleas 7,905]

6 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Agree, but his footwork is so refined and he’s mobile, would think we’ll see a fair amount of P&R and P&P action with him with some floor spreading to help him/space. Maybe he plays more the small 5 role this season

Agree as well. He's very skilled and had good footwork, and while not always a willing passer he showed strong skills there, especially out of the high post. Agree with him being strong as a small ball 5 as well, sort of what I meant by the square peg, round hole thing since he'll most likely spend most of his time at the 4. 

But, with his handle and passing when he does it, he can be a great player if he also comes back and can confidently knock down shots in the pick and pop. A ton of potential and value with development. 

[lillurk 3,756]

We’ve got a great discussion going here. Think Reneau can fit within Woodson’s desired framework if the jumper comes along OR if/when the other frontcourt players can shoot. So Ware is a perfect fit, in theory.

In addition to the sets mentioned I’d add they’ll run plenty of double drag screens with both bigs popping OR one roll & one pop. They’ve already done this in the past but the frontcourt shooting and ball skills should make it more effective and harder to guard than it has been.

[hoosierbgh 1,264]

52 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree as well. He's very skilled and had good footwork, and while not always a willing passer he showed strong skills there, especially out of the high post. Agree with him being strong as a small ball 5 as well, sort of what I meant by the square peg, round hole thing since he'll most likely spend most of his time at the 4. 

But, with his handle and passing when he does it, he can be a great player if he also comes back and can confidently knock down shots in the pick and pop. A ton of potential and value with development. 

I don't see the square peg, round hole comment. If anything I think Reneau is the Yin to Ware's Yang. They both have things that they do well to complement each other but can be somewhat interchangeable depending on what is needed in a particular game. As of now, Ware is better on the perimeter and Reneau is better in the post.  I think Ware spends more time at the 4 and Reneau more at the 5 on offense. 

Defensively, Reneau is almost certainly going to be guarding the opponents 5, unless Ware adds a lot of strength. Even if Ware has the strength, having him come from the weak side for blocks and using his length and athleticism to cover ground is a more effective use of his talents than pinning him in the post against the bruisers in the BIG. 

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,398]

This is the type of roster and size I’ve been clamoring for, for years.

Mgbako may be 6’8” but his ball handling is legit. Kopp’s spot-MUCH better shot creator, driver.

Reneau takes over Races spot. Will be asked to do the things Race was allowed to do last year but he will get higher volume. He’s more gifted than we saw last year. Just needs to get the confidence going.

Ware takes over TJD spot. TJD is a top 5 Hoosier for me in my lifetime so I don’t clearly expect Ware to be TJD. TJD was also really smart. He was great. BUT Ware has the abilities to replace a lot of what TJD did for us and should also be a capable rim protector which imo is what we need most out of this spot. If he’s an offensive + we will take it.

I think we are going to see a lot of the same PNR/P actions. We have 3 bigs that should be lob threats, roll threats, and hopefully pop threats.

I’d like to see more penetration and dishing from out guard spots and X and Galloway should be able to provide some of that.

Woody’s pin down action for JHS was a new wrinkle that he might continue to X but I think Woody and staff will come up with some new actions to benefit skillsets.

Nearly a Brand new team with a roster makeup I’ve been wanting to see.


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[str8baller 5,271]

1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Ware takes over TJD spot. TJD is a top 5 Hoosier for me in my lifetime so I don’t clearly expect Ware to be TJD. TJD was also really smart. He was great. BUT Ware has the abilities to replace a lot of what TJD did for us and should also be a capable rim protector which imo is what we need most out of this spot. If he’s an offensive + we will take it. 

Nobody is really going to take over the TJD spot because neither one guy will be able to do what he did. Also there really isn’t a “TJD spot” because Woody adjusted to make sure our All American post got touches where he needed them most. 
 

You’ll probably see Ware get a lot of the TJD PnR opportunities. And to the extent Woody feels the need to run sets to get deep low post touches, you’ll probably see Reneau get his fair share of those.   
 

Both players will have to get better at shooting from distance to have any chance of seeing a spread/4out type of offense be effective. If they shoot like they did last year, they can pop all day long but no competent defense will chase them out there.  Teams stopped worrying about Race beyond the arc and he shot eerily similar to Ware last year.  
 

I suspect one or both will show up with some outside skills. But if they don’t, one thing you’ll probably see is Ware in the short corner and Reneau in the high post or FT area. Reneau is a good passer and Woody put him there a bit last year. From there he can lob to Ware, hit cutters or pass back out to shooters. And if the defense plays soft on the ball he can take a couple strong dribbles and bully his way to the post , which is something he did last year to varying degrees of success. 

[Stuhoo 80,920]

I’m reasonably certain that our offense and offensive sets will look very different in February from the way they look in November.

Many new pieces will mean many adjustments.

Be ready for growing pains, but have patience for a very high ceiling.

[HoosierHoopster 7,017]

On 5/20/2023 at 2:28 PM, Stuhoo said:

I’m reasonably certain that our offense and offensive sets will look very different in February from the way they look in November.

Many new pieces will mean many adjustments.

Be ready for growing pains, but have patience for a very high ceiling.

Me out loud

Me being honest