How far away is IUBB from being elite again?

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,969]

I would say the trajectory is still trending up from last year so far just not at the national title contender level some I guess thought was going to happen.   It would of been nice if IU was able to skip steps and all of a sudden become elite contenders with the same players that barely made the tourney last year but college basketball has a way of humbling teams that think that.     Of course there are programs that got it right and for whatever reason were able to skip some steps.    Unfortunately IU isn’t one of them.    2 things can be true.   Iu is on a trajectory to be better than they were last year by a wide margin and continue to move the program in the right direction.   IU is far off from where they need to be to be able to compete with programs that are in the conversation for 1 seeds.   Going to have grind to get where they want.   No skipping steps for this program 

My reference with Trajectory is where we project next year. Yeah, year 2 will be better than year 1 because we brought back the entire team effectively. Year 3 will project to be down from year 2. I guess we can discuss that when it happens.

And plenty of schools skip steps. There was a big crew here and everywhere that thought Archie needed 4 years to instill a system. Lol.

Top end freshman and the wide world of portaling makes skipping steps very much a possibility.


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[Hoosierfan2017 20,925]

18 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Said this a lot better than I did, my post above is all over the place (maybe I need more coffee). Agree we're on a good trajectory, we're definitely improved from last season, but it's basically the same team with the addition of JHS and Ren, and the growth of some players (like Bates). 2 things can be true.

I am big on the direction of our recruiting, which also goes to heart -- we see strong 2-way players coming in, that is a big part of heart/fight. JHS/Ren are an outstanding base to work from. The one thing that somewhat concerns me is whether Woodson will show more flexibility in his game-planning and use of the guys on the bench. Flexibility, an ability to think outside the box, and floor imagination -- those are qualities you see in guys like Sampson, one of the better all-around coaches out there (purely from a bball standpoint). I like the Woodson hire, I like the trajectory, but I haven't seen a lot of that from him at least yet. I hope to see him making better in-game adjustments.

I disagree regarding the direction of our recruiting. Our 2023 class is pretty meh. Ranked #35 in the country. We missed on a lot of targets. No wings or bigs in the class. Neither guy projects to be instant impact. With us losing TJD and Race, no bigs in the class is a problem, and given the lack of wings on the current team, no wings in the class is a problem too. 

Maybe we’ll be able to fix that in the portal. Do we have the NIL funds to compete with the big boys in the portal? Time will tell.  

[IU - Kaulie 1,891]

Send a message the next two games.

JHS

Gallo 

Kopp

Reneau

Geronimo

Extended  minutes for Gunn, Banks, and Duncomb.

Now this will never ever happen.

 

[Uspshoosier 45,156]

4 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

My reference with Trajectory is where we project next year. Yeah, year 2 will be better than year 1 because we brought back the entire team effectively. Year 3 will project to be down from year 2. I guess we can discuss that when it happens.

And plenty of schools skip steps. There was a big crew here and everywhere that thought Archie needed 4 years to instill a system. Lol.

Top end freshman and the wide world of portaling makes skipping steps very much a possibility.


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Hard to tell if IU is one of those teams that  can skip steps.    They didn’t bring in any portal guys for this year and in 2 of the games where they got blown out away from home their top end freshman was on the bench watching.    People want IU to be able to skip steps on name alone and that ship has sailed.   IU is in for the long haul to fight its way back to the top.    Before people talk about it IU can be elite again they should probably talk about taking smaller steps like trying to have the programs first winning record in conference in 6 years, winning a road game at a tournament quality team which they didn’t do last year. They probably checked that box already this year with the Xavier win.   Protect your home court better.   Do those small steps and work your way into being a program that actually has a chance to go to a place like Kansas and give them a 17th loss in like 10 years.   Hard to tell how next year will project.   Might be a breath of fresh air to move on from players that have been in this IU culture for as long as they have been.   Might make kids have to step up and for the coaches to step up and not rely on players they think are not replaceable.   Many ways to improve a program let’s see if IU becomes one of those programs or if they still in the middle to the bottom of the B1G 

[yogisballin 2,297]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I disagree regarding the direction of our recruiting. Our 2023 class is pretty meh. Ranked #35 in the country. We missed on a lot of targets. No wings or bigs in the class. Neither guy projects to be instant impact. With us losing TJD and Race, no bigs in the class is a problem, and given the lack of wings on the current team, no wings in the class is a problem too. 

Maybe we’ll be able to fix that in the portal. Do we have the NIL funds to compete with the big boys in the portal? Time will tell.  

On top of no bigs and wings. I still think we need another PG. Let's say we lose JHS after this season. That leaves Cupps and what if he isn't ready (I say this bc there is more freshman that aren't ready than those that are) or gets hurt? That would leave us with another massive hole. 

[Uspshoosier 45,156]

27 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I disagree regarding the direction of our recruiting. Our 2023 class is pretty meh. Ranked #35 in the country. We missed on a lot of targets. No wings or bigs in the class. Neither guy projects to be instant impact. With us losing TJD and Race, no bigs in the class is a problem, and given the lack of wings on the current team, no wings in the class is a problem too. 

Maybe we’ll be able to fix that in the portal. Do we have the NIL funds to compete with the big boys in the portal? Time will tell.  

Yes IU has the NIL funds.    I would be worried about the lack of wings in the class then I would have about the no bigs even with losing those 2.    Best teams in college usually have guards or wings as their best player.  In my opinion until IU’s best player is a guard or a wing they will continue to struggle with the upper tier teams 

[Stuhoo 79,752]

29 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Yes IU has the NIL funds.    I would be worried about the lack of wings in the class then I would have about the no bigs even with losing those 2.    Best teams in college usually have guards or wings as their best player.  In my opinion until IU’s best player is a guard or a wing they will continue to struggle with the upper tier teams 

Bates is a useful player on the offensive end. But he’s not that guy.

Gallo is a useful player on the defensive end and may have the strongest mindset on the roster. But he’s not that guy either.

Kopp is a veteran that can shoot. Certainly not that guy.

I think we oughta start exploring whether Banks or Gunn can be an alpha dog. Especially Gunn. He hasn’t shot well yet but he’s a long wing with a quick release and some swagger. Two cupcakes this week is a nice opportunity to do that.

If we can find a strong wing we have a lot of high level pieces to go with that wing. We’re not that far away.

 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,925]

26 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Yes IU has the NIL funds.    I would be worried about the lack of wings in the class then I would have about the no bigs even with losing those 2.    Best teams in college usually have guards are wings as their best player.  In my opinion until IU’s best player is a guard or a wing they will continue to struggle with the upper tier teams 

We’ll still need a big or two for the sake of depth if nothing else. A Malik/JG frontcourt is too small for my liking. There’s Duncomb, but given his lack of playing time we have no idea what we have there. I definitely agree with you regarding guard/wing play, though.  

We just lack an identity as a team. Some teams beat you with great guard play, some teams do it with imposing bigs, others do it with shooting. Some teams have lesser talent but wear you down and outwork you. We have a collection of, on the whole, above average talent, but no real identity. Last year we at least played hard defense most of the time, but that went to crap against Zona/Kansas.

[Golfman25 5,028]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Woodson many times said he wants TJD to shoot the ball from outside. Been shown many times in the summer TJD working on his outside shot but he is hesitant to shoot it in the game.

Then maybe he needs some motivation.  @$$ meet mr bench.  

[Golfman25 5,028]

19 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

We’ll still need a big or two for the sake of depth if nothing else. A Malik/JG frontcourt is too small for my liking. There’s Duncomb, but given his lack of playing time we have no idea what we have there. I definitely agree with you regarding guard/wing play, though.  

We just lack an identity as a team. Some teams beat you with great guard play, some teams do it with imposing bigs, others do it with shooting. Some teams have lesser talent but wear you down and outwork you. We have a collection of, on the whole, above average talent, but no real identity. Last year we at least played hard defense most of the time, but that went to crap against Zona/Kansas.

I think Duncomb is a work in progress, a project.  Classic four year player.  Comes in as a scrawny freshman.  He’s filled out this year.  Should start seeing extended playing time next year and starting as a senior.  Hopefully.  

[Rico 2,990]

50 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Hard to tell if IU is one of those teams that  can skip steps.    They didn’t bring in any portal guys for this year and in 2 of the games where they got blown out away from home their top end freshman was on the bench watching.    People want IU to be able to skip steps on name alone and that ship has sailed.   IU is in for the long haul to fight its way back to the top.    Before people talk about it IU can be elite again they should probably talk about taking smaller steps like trying to have the programs first winning record in conference in 6 years, winning a road game at a tournament quality team which they didn’t do last year. They probably checked that box already this year with the Xavier win.   Protect your home court better.   Do those small steps and work your way into being a program that actually has a chance to go to a place like Kansas and give them a 17th loss in like 10 years.   Hard to tell how next year will project.   Might be a breath of fresh air to move on from players that have been in this IU culture for as long as they have been.   Might make kids have to step up and for the coaches to step up and not rely on players they think are not replaceable.   Many ways to improve a program let’s see if IU becomes one of those programs or if they still in the middle to the bottom of the B1G 

I know a couple of fans up here that hoped TJD moved on after last season.

[Hoosier987 1,069]

I wouldn’t be too concerned about next years recruiting class. We’ll hit the portal hard. 
FYI - I saw some stat (maybe ppg) where the older transfer players are making up much more production than true freshman. 

[Stuhoo 79,752]

20 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Then maybe he needs some motivation.  @$$ meet mr bench.  

Pretty sure that when a crappy game includes NINE blocked shots against a top ten team, @$$ will not be meeting bench.

Nor should it.

[Southside 1,914]

 

We have several good players. Just not elite types we need. Not far IMO. 

Until we have an elite scorer at G or wing, we'll struggle.

And throw in a true "big" that's good enough to compete with other true bigs.

We still are good enough to compete for the B10, just not good enough for the ship. 

[RaceToTheTop 24,959]

1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Top end freshman and the wide world of portaling makes skipping steps very much a possibility.


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They do -- but in defense of the Miller needing more than a couple of years -- he wasn't starting with a great incoming class and the portal rules were completely different then.  While he turned out to be a flop, even if he were The Man it wouldn't have shown right away.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,620]

5 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

They do -- but in defense of the Miller needing more than a couple of years -- he wasn't starting with a great incoming class and the portal rules were completely different then.  While he turned out to be a flop, even if he were The Man it wouldn't have shown right away.

Well it didn't help him he isn't a good coach by any measure. Plenty of losses where there weren't any excuses. 1st game of his career literally told us everything, which is absolutely insane. 

[Golfman25 5,028]

38 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Pretty sure that when a crappy game includes NINE blocked shots against a top ten team, @$$ will not be meeting bench.

Nor should it.

Fair enough.  But need to get him to shoot at some point, if that's the plan and it will help the team longer term.  These NC games coming up are the perfect time to require him to take some shots.  

[Golfman25 5,028]

27 minutes ago, Southside said:

 

We have several good players. Just not elite types we need. Not far IMO. 

Until we have an elite scorer at G or wing, we'll struggle.

And throw in a true "big" that's good enough to compete with other true bigs.

We still are good enough to compete for the B10, just not good enough for the ship. 

There are two ways to do it.  A system team like Painter, or Wisconsin, or Stevens when at Butler, etc.  Or load and reload 5 starts a la Kentucky, etc.  Currently, IU doesn't have the appeal for the load and reload, and Woody isn't a system coach, at least on offense.  He needs to figure out how to bridge that gap, and soon.  

[HoosierHoopster 6,838]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I disagree regarding the direction of our recruiting. Our 2023 class is pretty meh. Ranked #35 in the country. We missed on a lot of targets. No wings or bigs in the class. Neither guy projects to be instant impact. With us losing TJD and Race, no bigs in the class is a problem, and given the lack of wings on the current team, no wings in the class is a problem too. 

Maybe we’ll be able to fix that in the portal. Do we have the NIL funds to compete with the big boys in the portal? Time will tell.  

Don’t disagree on 2023, but you can’t just ignore who Woodson has already brought in looking at the direction. It started with excellent lands in JHS and Malik, and guys like Banks look like somewhat under the radar guys who are going to contribute well probably next season, and then there’s’24, and we’re in on some very good players, and staff is clearly trying to bring in 2-way players, not just scorers or plodding bigs etc. direction isn’t just 2023

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,969]

Hard to tell if IU is one of those teams that  can skip steps.    They didn’t bring in any portal guys for this year and in 2 of the games where they got blown out away from home their top end freshman was on the bench watching.    People want IU to be able to skip steps on name alone and that ship has sailed.   IU is in for the long haul to fight its way back to the top.    Before people talk about it IU can be elite again they should probably talk about taking smaller steps like trying to have the programs first winning record in conference in 6 years, winning a road game at a tournament quality team which they didn’t do last year. They probably checked that box already this year with the Xavier win.   Protect your home court better.   Do those small steps and work your way into being a program that actually has a chance to go to a place like Kansas and give them a 17th loss in like 10 years.   Hard to tell how next year will project.   Might be a breath of fresh air to move on from players that have been in this IU culture for as long as they have been.   Might make kids have to step up and for the coaches to step up and not rely on players they think are not replaceable.   Many ways to improve a program let’s see if IU becomes one of those programs or if they still in the middle to the bottom of the B1G 

I disagree and that’s fine, I’m happy to agree to disagree. I’ll accept being a relevant program. Hell, I’ll accept probably anything and still watch. An Elite program would be fun. I realize how hard it is and apparently at Indiana it’s especially hard. But numerous other programs have shown the right coach with a committed athletic department can make it happen. (Perennial top 25 team-stretching higher)

Based on our recruiting targets in 24 and 25 we seem to be trying. I think that includes the athletic department finally too. (Maybe?). Woodson, you’d assume with NBA talent can get it done, since that is his style and preference. Let’s get him NBA talent and see what happens.

Right now the team looks disjointed, disinterested , and generally not playing for each other. JHS jacks up a shot and misses. Guys hang their head back to the defensive end and sulk. Then the next guy tries a 1 on 1 move next possession, rinse and repeat. Coach has some work to do.


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