IUBB vs Illinois- 2/5/2022 @ 12:00 on ESPN

[MikeRoberts 7,030]

34 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

For the most part Kopp and Stewart just stand around on the wing. Without movement, or running plays to get them open,  Kopp and Stewart don’t often get the ball in a threatening position and are kept in check by defenders that are forced to go out further than the lane but don’t need to continuously defend them particularly tight. Nothing against either guy but I don’t like them starting together.

Good teams hold themselves and their teammates accountable and communicate. I can only go off of what I see in games but that doesn’t happen in the games we see.

I saw an amazing clip and story about Georgia football and that being the difference for them this year - player accountability and leadership. The video was of a goal line stand where a defender wasn’t in the right place and offense scores and the captain ran over and grabbed him by the pads and was barking at him and pointing where he should have been.

coach didn’t need to say anything, the players knew and sorted it out

 

oops, quotes the wrong post

 

 

[yogisballin 2,349]

Won’t be easy but winning 2 of the next 4 is pretty important in our drive to the dance.  Odds of doing so are minuscule if we don’t win at NW. 
 
@Northwestern
@MSU
Wiscy
@OSU

I don’t see us winning 1 in the next 4. I’ll gladly eat crow.


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[Hoosierfan1901 6,336]

5 minutes ago, yogisballin said:

I don’t see us winning 1 in the next 4. I’ll gladly eat crow.


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You may very well be right

[DChoosier 8,538]

7 minutes ago, yogisballin said:

I don’t see us winning 1 in the next 4. I’ll gladly eat crow.


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Yep, I’m not saying I think we will win 2/4.

I could see us winning @NW and beating Wiscy but can also see us going 1-3 or 0-4. 
Hoping for 2-2 and that we might be a little  overly pessimistic because we lost to a good team in which we poorly match up.

[IUFAN1976 3,264]

52 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

For the most part Kopp and Stewart just stand around on the wing. Without movement, or running plays to get them open,  Kopp and Stewart don’t often get the ball in a threatening position and are kept in check by defenders that are forced to go out further than the lane but don’t need to continuously defend them particularly tight. Nothing against either guy but I don’t like them starting together.

I’m a Mike Woodson fan but that’s on him! The offense is basically the same as Miller’s, throw it in to Trayce or Race and everyone else stands around waiting for them to do something with the ball.  I honestly thought our offense would be more motion offense based, like Knight had and like Turdue plays.  You always see Turdue’d players moving.  I know he has said the D is way ahead of the O, but I thought by now it would be getting much closer.  The only players showing real improvement offensively is X, Race, and Galloway.  

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

5 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

Yep, I’m not saying I think we will win 2/4.

I could see us winning @NW and beating Wiscy but can also see us going 1-3 or 0-4. 
Hoping for 2-2 and that we might be a little  overly pessimistic because we lost to a good team in which we poorly match up.

I can't express how much I dislike these kinds of statements, not aimed at you just in general

• we poorly match up
• it's on the road
• we don't have the personnel
• it's not a bad loss
• they have more talent

Yes, it's inevitable we'll lose games, it's sports. The dismissive and excusing attitude just doesn't jive with what we should be doing. For every game we've fought through adversity there are 2-3 where we folded like a cheap chair.

Remember, Ill should have had to defend a more dynamic offense on the other end. However, we mostly played right into their strengths in the second half with Trayce stumbling and bumbling his was into turnovers. Forcing their defenders into their weakness would have been ideal but we kept forcing it into TJD for him to look like a second rate Big 1.o big against Cockburn. Why not force them into switches and attack those match ups? Why not force Cockburn to get out to a shooter after an off-ball screen? We've made several teams look better than they are by what we did/didn't do just as much as what they did. That's the C word.

[IUFAN1976 3,264]

33 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I can't express how much I dislike these kinds of statements, not aimed at you just in general

• we poorly match up
• it's on the road
• we don't have the personnel
• it's not a bad loss
• they have more talent

Yes, it's inevitable we'll lose games, it's sports. The dismissive and excusing attitude just doesn't jive with what we should be doing. For every game we've fought through adversity there are 2-3 where we folded like a cheap chair.

Remember, Ill should have had to defend a more dynamic offense on the other end. However, we mostly played right into their strengths in the second half with Trayce stumbling and bumbling his was into turnovers. Forcing their defenders into their weakness would have been ideal but we kept forcing it into TJD for him to look like a second rate Big 1.o big against Cockburn. Why not force them into switches and attack those match ups? Why not force Cockburn to get out to a shooter after an off-ball screen? We've made several teams look better than they are by what we did/didn't do just as much as what they did. That's the C word.

Most of us on here agree with you! The 2nd half adjustments should have been a version of what you described, instead it seemed as though they try to stick with their original game plan to force the ball into TJD and try to get Dickburn into foul trouble.  All Dickburn has to do to defend TJD is pretty much stand there with his arms stretched high and Trayce just bounces off of him like a ball in a pinball machine. He probably outweighs Trayce by 40 lbs and he looks stronger.  We played right into their hands, hook, line and sinker!

[Rico 3,071]

12 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Most of us on here agree with you! The 2nd half adjustments should have been a version of what you described, instead it seemed as though they try to stick with their original game plan to force the ball into TJD and try to get Dickburn into foul trouble.  All Dickburn has to do to defend TJD is pretty much stand there with his arms stretched high and Trayce just bounces off of him like a ball in a pinball machine. He probably outweighs Trayce by 40 lbs and he looks stronger.  We played right into their hands, hook, line and sinker!

I hope TJD is applying the proper gel today for that Dickburn he got yesterday.  Ouch.

[Uspshoosier 45,891]

1 hour ago, HoosierAloha said:

I can't express how much I dislike these kinds of statements, not aimed at you just in general

• we poorly match up
• it's on the road
• we don't have the personnel
• it's not a bad loss
• they have more talent

Yes, it's inevitable we'll lose games, it's sports. The dismissive and excusing attitude just doesn't jive with what we should be doing. For every game we've fought through adversity there are 2-3 where we folded like a cheap chair.

Remember, Ill should have had to defend a more dynamic offense on the other end. However, we mostly played right into their strengths in the second half with Trayce stumbling and bumbling his was into turnovers. Forcing their defenders into their weakness would have been ideal but we kept forcing it into TJD for him to look like a second rate Big 1.o big against Cockburn. Why not force them into switches and attack those match ups? Why not force Cockburn to get out to a shooter after an off-ball screen? We've made several teams look better than they are by what we did/didn't do just as much as what they did. That's the C word.

Are you saying bad matchups don’t happen in college basketball? If so I disagree big time.  Ncaa tournament is all about matchups.   Can’t really truly say how a team is going to do in the tourney until the bracket comes out.  IU matches up horribly against Michigan.   Athletic wings that are not 1 dimensional and a big that could cancel out IU’s.  I’m all for wanting to win every game but I also see factors outside of just wanting my team to play hard every second of every game that will result in a loss.    I wish my team won all the games the were suppose to and fought hard in every game they should lose.    Losses stink.   When was the last time people on here looked at a loss and said yep I’m cool with this loss because they did everything they could but just ran into a better team?   I can’t remember one 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

14 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Are you saying bad matchups don’t happen in college basketball? If so I disagree big time.  Ncaa tournament is all about matchups.   Can’t really truly say how a team is going to do in the tourney until the bracket comes out.  IU matches up horribly against Michigan.   Athletic wings that are not 1 dimensional and a big that could cancel out IU’s.  I’m all for wanting to win every game but I also see factors outside of just wanting my team to play hard every second of every game that will result in a loss.    I wish my team won all the games the were suppose to and fought hard in every game they should lose.    Losses stink.   When was the last time people on here looked at a loss and said yep I’m cool with this loss because they did everything they could but just ran into a better team?   I can’t remember one 

Says A LOT about how the IU program has been run for a long time.

No, there are bad matchups in every sport. There are clearly better all around players on one team but that is very few and very far between. It's an excuse used more often than not. The majority of the time when there is a bad matchup on one end there is something you should be able to exploit on the other. How many times did we attack Plummer yesterday? He's a very good shooter, his defense is on par with P Stew and Kopp with a little more in the e and e department from what I've seen of him. Ill wasn't a bad matchup it was us not dominating them in matchups that we clearly had an advantage while they dominated matchups they had an advantage.

Michigan has looked quite pedestrian again after playing IU. I guess we could just rack it up to them having the game of their life or bad matchups while ignoring we decided to "defend" them from a completely different zip code. We simply didn't show up for that game and the result showed that. Someone on Michigan's staff looked at all the silly things we do and exploited the hell out of it while we caved.

 

 

 

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,455]

Are you saying bad matchups don’t happen in college basketball? If so I disagree big time.  Ncaa tournament is all about matchups.   Can’t really truly say how a team is going to do in the tourney until the bracket comes out.  IU matches up horribly against Michigan.   Athletic wings that are not 1 dimensional and a big that could cancel out IU’s.  I’m all for wanting to win every game but I also see factors outside of just wanting my team to play hard every second of every game that will result in a loss.    I wish my team won all the games the were suppose to and fought hard in every game they should lose.    Losses stink.   When was the last time people on here looked at a loss and said yep I’m cool with this loss because they did everything they could but just ran into a better team?   I can’t remember one 

Any@Duke. (Langford vs Zion Williamson-boy was that foreboding) Any @ Blue Blood.

We are Indiana. We fashion ourselves as trying to win the B1G and National championships. (At least that is what the athletic department says).

Some still consider us a Blue Blood. At some point or another after years of the narrative that we are trying to win National championships, we need to field a roster that has skills to at least compete with other “Blue Bloods”. When and if that ever happens we should have talent advantages on our side in most other non “blue blood” matches.

We won’t always have the best 5 on the floor but we should eventually have the majority and then in that case the coaches can exploit those advantages.

Someday, when we face a Kofi, we can gameplan a win without trying to go head to head. But currently we don’t have the talent or the coaching.


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[Uspshoosier 45,891]

22 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Any@Duke. (Langford vs Zion Williamson-boy was that foreboding) Any @ Blue Blood.

We are Indiana. We fashion ourselves as trying to win the B1G and National championships. (At least that is what the athletic department says).

Some still consider us a Blue Blood. At some point or another after years of the narrative that we are trying to win National championships, we need to field a roster that has skills to at least compete with other “Blue Bloods”. When and if that ever happens we should have talent advantages on our side in most other non “blue blood” matches.

We won’t always have the best 5 on the floor but we should eventually have the majority and then in that case the coaches can exploit those advantages.

Someday, when we face a Kofi, we can gameplan a win without trying to go head to head. But currently we don’t have the talent or the coaching.


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So at Duke you were fine with the loss because it’s Duke and they suppose to win so no big deal that IU lost but not cool with being down 30 and non competitive during the game.   When was the last time IU played a game and people on here were fine with the coaching, players execution and said sucks we lost but we did everything  we could.   Kentucky 2012 in the tournament?

[Uspshoosier 45,891]

7 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Says A LOT about how the IU program has been run for a long time.

No, there are bad matchups in every sport. There are clearly better all around players on one team but that is very few and very far between. It's an excuse used more often than not. The majority of the time when there is a bad matchup on one end there is something you should be able to exploit on the other. How many times did we attack Plummer yesterday? He's a very good shooter, his defense is on par with P Stew and Kopp with a little more in the e and e department from what I've seen of him. Ill wasn't a bad matchup it was us not dominating them in matchups that we clearly had an advantage while they dominated matchups they had an advantage.

Michigan has looked quite pedestrian again after playing IU. I guess we could just rack it up to them having the game of their life or bad matchups while ignoring we decided to "defend" them from a completely different zip code. We simply didn't show up for that game and the result showed that. Someone on Michigan's staff looked at all the silly things we do and exploited the hell out of it while we caved.

 

 

 

Illinois is a final 4 caliber team and IU isn’t.  For IU to beat a top team certain aspects of the game have to fall the right way and yesterday that didn’t happen.   Doesn’t matter how hard IU played they were the less talented team.    IU couldn’t recover from getting punched in the face.   IU is up 4 and runs a play for Stewart who misses a shot they would of put them up 7.  Illinois comes back and splashes 2 straight 3’s.    IU didn’t recover from that sequence and gave up a game crushing 16-3 run.  People can call them excuses all they want but that doesn’t change the fact of the limitations of this roster.   Jeffries said it best.  IU is a mediocre to average team that has the ability to beat good to great teams.  As long as IU has 1 dimensional players everywhere in their rotations this is what is going to happen when teams game plan to take away their strengths.  

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,455]

So at Duke you were fine with the loss because it’s Duke and they suppose to win so no big deal that IU lost but not cool with being down 30 and non competitive during the game.   When was the last time IU played a game and people on here were fine with the coaching, players execution and said sucks we lost but we did everyone we could.   Kentucky 2012 in the tournament?

Kentucky in 2012, UNC in 2016. We played great but lost. In my mind, we at Indiana shouldn’t have massive talent gaps vs anyone but especially not Purdue or Illinois.

UNC is interesting this year. Great roster on paper. Not great results on the court. Although they will still probably make the tournament despite chemistry, coaching problems. That’s where talent gets you. People always want to credit or discredit coaching. Coaches biggest job is identifying the talent and getting the talent. Winning mostly takes care of itself. The ceiling/floor stuff.

Then you have Michigan State and Purdue that win regularly with mostly 4 star talent. I don’t think Woodson is that guy.


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[Uspshoosier 45,891]

1 minute ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Kentucky in 2012, UNC in 2016. We played great but lost. In my mind, we at Indiana shouldn’t have massive talent gaps vs anyone but especially not Purdue or Illinois.

UNC is interesting this year. Great roster on paper. Not great results on the court. Although they will still probably make the tournament despite chemistry, coaching problems. That’s where talent gets you. People always want to credit or discredit coaching. Coaches biggest job is identifying the talent and getting the talent. Winning mostly takes care of itself. The ceiling/floor stuff.

Then you have Michigan State and Purdue that win regularly with mostly 4 star talent. I don’t think Woodson is that guy.


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North Carolina is 0-7 in Q1 games and the ACC stinks.   They better beat Duke at least once.    They are right on the cut line. I don’t think they have a win vs a team projected in the field 

[MikeRoberts 7,030]

I think we are getting at some of the concerns that need addressing ASAP in recruiting and coaching.

TJD is a good defender and good offensively but very 1 dimensional and if that 1 dimension gets taken away, he’s done. IU should never pass up an opportunity to get a TJD but if we do, we need to be more strategic about who we recruit to play along with him. To a lesser degree, same with Race. Good defender, decent offensively but very one dimensional offensively and unfortunately, it’s the same dimension as TJD. Race is a middle class version of TJD. 
 

for them to be two of our better players, that sucks. They are similar players that don’t compliment each other. Neither are slashers, neither have a mid-range nor 3 point shot.

So, if you are going to play two 1 dimensional players you have to surround them with bombers. I know the staff tried to do that with Kopp, X and Parker but they forgot that they actually needed to utilize them. We run nothing for them. So what we end up with is this really stagnant, predictable offense where they defense knows exactly what we are going to do

[IUFAN1976 3,264]

4 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

I think we are getting at some of the concerns that need addressing ASAP in recruiting and coaching.

TJD is a good defender and good offensively but very 1 dimensional and if that 1 dimension gets taken away, he’s done. IU should never pass up an opportunity to get a TJD but if we do, we need to be more strategic about who we recruit to play along with him. To a lesser degree, same with Race. Good defender, decent offensively but very one dimensional offensively and unfortunately, it’s the same dimension as TJD. Race is a middle class version of TJD. 
 

for them to be two of our better players, that sucks. They are similar players that don’t compliment each other. Neither are slashers, neither have a mid-range nor 3 point shot.

So, if you are going to play two 1 dimensional players you have to surround them with bombers. I know the staff tried to do that with Kopp, X and Parker but they forgot that they actually needed to utilize them. We run nothing for them. So what we end up with is this really stagnant, predictable offense where they defense knows exactly what we are going to do

Your last statement is correct; however, I think Race is more than 1 dimensional offensively and I believe he is just scratching the surface offensively.  He good at the basketball, has hit some mid-range shots and has finally started to hit 3 pointers, although he didn’t last game but even the best shooters may come up empty on occasion.  Also, he handles the ball decent, especially when he gets a rebound on the defensive end and starts a fast break on many occasions.  TJD is more 1 dimensional but Race is not, IMO.

[HoosierHoopster 7,056]

47 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Illinois is a final 4 caliber team and IU isn’t.  For IU to beat a top team certain aspects of the game have to fall the right way and yesterday that didn’t happen.   Doesn’t matter how hard IU played they were the less talented team.    IU couldn’t recover from getting punched in the face.   IU is up 4 and runs a play for Stewart who misses a shot they would of put them up 7.  Illinois comes back and splashes 2 straight 3’s.    IU didn’t recover from that sequence and gave up a game crushing 16-3 run.  People can call them excuses all they want but that doesn’t change the fact of the limitations of this roster.   Jeffries said it best.  IU is a mediocre to average team that has the ability to beat good to great teams.  As long as IU has 1 dimensional players everywhere in their rotations this is what is going to happen when teams game plan to take away their strengths.  

Agree in part - IU is largely one dimensional across the floor, it’s a team of mostly CAM recruits with late-added transfers trying to address a lack of outside shooting and need for point guard play, and it’s Woodson’s first season.

However, in my best broken record voice, the staff is not pushing the outside game, or inside- out play despite starting both Stew and Kopp for their outside game. That’s on the staff and at least to an extent TJD for not getting the ball back out to shooters.

We can win more of these games when wr get more shooting — and a more balanced attack. Some talk about the PU game as an outlier because Rob got hot. Well, that’s partly true, it was his best game— but it doesn’t happen without TJD being on the bench — we had to play from outside, and PU had no good answer. This team does have pretty decent outside shooting, but it doesn’t use it well, and when it’s focus is on playing through TJD, and it’s not going back outside, we’re not going to score well generally except when THD dominates. That is limiting this team, this team can score better.

[MikeRoberts 7,030]

10 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Your last statement is correct; however, I think Race is more than 1 dimensional offensively and I believe he is just scratching the surface offensively.  He good at the basketball, has hit some mid-range shots and has finally started to hit 3 pointers, although he didn’t last game but even the best shooters may come up empty on occasion.  Also, he handles the ball decent, especially when he gets a rebound on the defensive end and starts a fast break on many occasions.  TJD is more 1 dimensional but Race is not, IMO.

Race is very 1 dimensional offensively. Can he handle the ball a little, sure but it’s not like that is a highlight of his. 
to say that he has finally started to hit his 3 pointers is so not true. If you are saying 22% is good or something I guess we will have to disagree. Maybe you mean compared to his 20% from last year?

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

19 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Illinois is a final 4 caliber team and IU isn’t.  For IU to beat a top team certain aspects of the game have to fall the right way and yesterday that didn’t happen.   Doesn’t matter how hard IU played they were the less talented team.    IU couldn’t recover from getting punched in the face.   IU is up 4 and runs a play for Stewart who misses a shot they would of put them up 7.  Illinois comes back and splashes 2 straight 3’s.    IU didn’t recover from that sequence and gave up a game crushing 16-3 run.  People can call them excuses all they want but that doesn’t change the fact of the limitations of this roster.   Jeffries said it best.  IU is a mediocre to average team that has the ability to beat good to great teams.  As long as IU has 1 dimensional players everywhere in their rotations this is what is going to happen when teams game plan to take away their strengths.  

Illinois has some talent and they've played well but I'm not sure they're Final 4 good. I'd probably put them in the next group down from Final 4 (they're not Gonzaga, Auburn, Arizona, puke, etc.). The biggest thing yesterday was our best player walked onto the court to start the game knowing he was defeated. We don't have the leeway to just show up to games in the Big 1.o. We have had issues putting it together for a full 40 minutes, many teams have this issue. However, we have issues with e and e. E and e should be a baseline that is established early on. We haven't done that.

Sure but we'll talk it up like we're not one dimensional, we got the players we wanted and/or needed and the cycle will continue. We'll hype up the development that hasn't really been shown here for forever. I guess Woody calling out Trayce about his jump shot will be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm guessing he'll continue to only work in the post.