Be careful what you wish for

[BottomLine 686]

After today's sad showing against Maryland the mob is ready to hang Archie Miller in effigy or perhaps in reality.  For those that thought we were going to get the second coming of Robert Montgomery Knight, a disciplinarian coach that put defense first, you were wrong.  That recipe for success was gone long before The General was booted out of Bloomington.  We all remember the glory days of the late 70's and 80's when Indiana was a force to be dealt with every year.  Some of us remember the days of Branch MacCracken, also a pretty good coach with two national titles.  With MacCracken it was the "Hurryin' Hoosiers" and a lot of the alumni didn't take kindly when a "mid Major" coach was brought in from Army to sit on the ball and teach defense.  The formula worked fine for awhile.  Knight would go to a 4-corner offense with eight minutes to go and a four point lead and the other team would have to foul to get the ball back.  Knight teams would have the discipline to make 20 passed before the prefect shot came up with the ball in the hands of the right man.  Knight's teams would run their motion offense and pick and screen until the defense collapsed from exhaustion.  But times change and Knight's teams were never the same after the introduction of the shot clock and his famous help side man-to-man defense was never as good after the introduction of the 3-point shot.  By the time Knight left town a lot of basketball had passed him by.  His basketball philosophy wasn't working as well and his personality was driving away a lot of top recruits.

I mention all of this because the cult of Bobby is starting to rear its head again, because Archie Miller isn't matching up with expectations.  How dare he not be Bobby Knight!  Be careful what you wish for.  Knight's last national title was in 1987 and IU made the Final Four just one more time in has last 13 years at IU.  In his last 9 years IU never made the Final Four once.  Only two of his last six teams were ranked in the top 25 in the final poll of the regular season.  Obviously the glory days for IU basketball had ended long before Coach finally moved on.  Or should I say that basketball moved on and left Knight behind.  Still this was the formula that many IU faithful wanted to return to three years ago when Archie Miller was hired.  So far it hasn't worked.  Now a lot of fans are starting to question if it ever will.

So let the debate continue.  I'm guessing that with a new AD coming in, Archie Miller will probably have one more year to show what he can do before the axe falls, unless there is another complete collapse this year like last.  And, that my friends, is certainly within the bounds of possibility.

For the sake of comparison, here are the win percentages of out last five coaches:

Sampson  .708  (Includes the 3-4 under Dakich)

Knight   .647   (Last 6 years only)

Crean   .628   (Pitched the first two years because of the complete rebuild after Sampson)

Davis    .593    (6 years)

Miller    .574    (2+ years)

[Brass Cannon 24,701]

2 minutes ago, BottomLine said:

After today's sad showing against Maryland the mob is ready to hang Archie Miller in effigy or perhaps in reality.  For those that thought we were going to get the second coming of Robert Montgomery Knight, a disciplinarian coach that put defense first, you were wrong.  That recipe for success was gone long before The General was booted out of Bloomington.  We all remember the glory days of the late 70's and 80's when Indiana was a force to be dealt with every year.  Some of us remember the days of Branch MacCracken, also a pretty good coach with two national titles.  With MacCracken it was the "Hurryin' Hoosiers" and a lot of the alumni didn't take kindly when a "mid Major" coach was brought in from Army to sit on the ball and teach defense.  The formula worked fine for awhile.  Knight would go to a 4-corner offense with eight minutes to go and a four point lead and the other team would have to foul to get the ball back.  Knight teams would have the discipline to make 20 passed before the prefect shot came up with the ball in the hands of the right man.  Knight's teams would run their motion offense and pick and screen until the defense collapsed from exhaustion.  But times change and Knight's teams were never the same after the introduction of the shot clock and his famous help side man-to-man defense was never as good after the introduction of the 3-point shot.  By the time Knight left town a lot of basketball had passed him by.  His basketball philosophy wasn't working as well and his personality was driving away a lot of top recruits.

I mention all of this because the cult of Bobby is starting to rear its head again, because Archie Miller isn't matching up with expectations.  How dare he not be Bobby Knight!  Be careful what you wish for.  Knight's last national title was in 1987 and IU made the Final Four just one more time in has last 13 years at IU.  In his last 9 years IU never made the Final Four once.  Only two of his last six teams were ranked in the top 25 in the final poll of the regular season.  Obviously the glory days for IU basketball had ended long before Coach finally moved on.  Or should I say that basketball moved on and left Knight behind.  Still this was the formula that many IU faithful wanted to return to three years ago when Archie Miller was hired.  So far it hasn't worked.  Now a lot of fans are starting to question if it ever will.

So let the debate continue.  I'm guessing that with a new AD coming in, Archie Miller will probably have one more year to show what he can do before the axe falls, unless there is another complete collapse this year like last.  And, that my friends, is certainly within the bounds of possibility.

For the sake of comparison, here are the win percentages of out last five coaches:

Sampson  .708  (Includes the 3-4 under Dakish)

Knight   .647   (Last 6 years only)

Crean   .628   (Pitched the first two years because of the complete rebuild after Sampson)

Davis    .593    (6 years)

Miller    .574    (2+ years)

Crazy we fired a guy for phone calls now after seeing LSU and UNC

[BottomLine 686]

He was a cheater and the atmosphere stank.  BUT he could coach!

[Brass Cannon 24,701]

Just now, BottomLine said:

He was a cheater and the atmosphere stank.  BUT he could coach!

In 40 years nobody will remember Roy Williams was a cheat. Heck they barely mention it now. 

[JSHoosier 20,139]

People being upset with Miller isn't because of Bob Knight.  It's because the same players are making the same mistakes and they're not being held accountable.  It's because we're 3 years in with no shooters and none coming in.  It's because last year the team thought effort was optional, and tonight we saw them quit.  It's because we see problems that aren't being addressed.  All of those will prevent winning games.  He'd be on thin ice at pUKe or Duke or UNC right now, but we're told we have to wait 5 years to even know what he is.

[Brass Cannon 24,701]

2 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

People being upset with Miller isn't because of Bob Knight.  It's because the same players are making the same mistakes and they're not being held accountable.  It's because we're 3 years in with no shooters and none coming in.  It's because last year the team thought effort was optional, and tonight we saw them quit.  It's because we see problems that aren't being addressed.  All of those will prevent winning games.  He'd be on thin ice at pUKe or Duke or UNC right now, but we're told we have to wait 5 years to even know what he is.

We keep being told to be patient it took Bennett and Beilein time to build their programs but both made the tourney in their first 3 years with far fewer resources. 
 

We will have paid 500,000 so far for each Big Ten win. 

[BottomLine 686]

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

We keep being told to be patient it took Bennett and Beilein time to build their programs but both made the tourney in their first 3 years with far fewer resources. 
 

We will have paid 500,000 so far for each Big Ten win. 

So, I think it is a foregone conclusion that you think he should be gone.  I understand your point and I'm leaning that way myself.  The question then becomes where do we go from here.  To try to repeat the success of the past is an admirable goal.  To try and repeat the methods of the past may be a mistake.  IU hired Miller because they thought he was a Knight clone and success would automatically follow.  He isn't and it didn't.

[Brass Cannon 24,701]

Just now, BottomLine said:

So, I think it is a foregone conclusion that you think he should be gone.  I understand your point and I'm leaning that way myself.  The question then becomes where do we go from here.  To try to repeat the success of the past is an admirable goal.  To try and repeat the methods of the past may be a mistake.  IU hired Miller because they thought he was a Knight clone and success would automatically follow.  He isn't and it didn't.

If we aren’t willing to cheat we need somebody who can develop players. Like Bennett and Bo Ryan. 
 

Personally I could care less if we started sending fed ex packages. 

[BottomLine 686]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

If we aren’t willing to cheat we need somebody who can develop players. Like Bennett and Bo Ryan. 
 

Personally I could care less if we started sending fed ex packages. 

Last time I looked Bennett and Ryan were not available.  Do you have any way of prediction who the next Bennett or Ryan might be?  IU got lucky once and picked a young coach out of obscurity and it worked out.  Beginners luck I think and the draw that a destination program has.  "Because its Indiana!"  As much as I hate to admit it, Crean was better than Miller, but he wasn't the answer either.  If we are going to change coaches down the road, we should be looking now and not after panic mode hits after we drop the axe.

We disagree on the fed ex packages.  Being clean is a backbone of the program.

[Brass Cannon 24,701]

1 minute ago, BottomLine said:

Last time I looked Bennett and Ryan were not available.  Do you have any way of prediction who the next Bennett or Ryan might be?  IU got lucky once and picked a young coach out of obscurity and it worked out.  Beginners luck I think and the draw that a destination program has.  "Because its Indiana!"  As much as I hate to admit it, Crean was better than Miller, but he wasn't the answer either.  If we are going to change coaches down the road, we should be looking now and not after panic mode hits after we drop the axe.

We disagree on the fed ex packages.  Being clean is a backbone of the program.

I don’t know who the best developers of talent are. Need to do id them 

[wirenuts 1,055]

I personally dont want Alford, as he was the coach brought up around the same time as Archie. Holtmann didn't want the job before, so that's out. I wouldnt be opposed to dane fife. I'm not sure they would get Chris beard but it would be worth a shot. 

[8bucks 6,430]

I personally dont want Alford, as he was the coach brought up around the same time as Archie. Holtmann didn't want the job before, so that's out. I wouldnt be opposed to dane fife. I'm not sure they would get Chris beard but it would be worth a shot. 

If Archie does not work then IU needs to go after a guy like Beard. Not some mid-major maybe but someone who has had sustained success. Even Beard has not had sustained success at the big time level but he seems to be that guy.

IU would need to bring in someone who will win. If that means $ then do it. They likely won’t and will try to find success with someone who had success at the lower level and hope that translates. It might but each time the miss they lose more and more of that fan base and donor money.

Alabama eventually brought in Saban. They tried the hot prospect route for a long time but eventually went after a proven coach. We don’t have the same level support ($) that Bama football has so we have more at risk when we miss.


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[HoosierAloha 30,068]

I have no idea where to put my thoughts on this whole debacle so I’ll post it here. I couldn’t care less what defense or offense a coach runs. I couldn’t care less if we recruit the best players or middle of the road. I don’t care where those players come from or what shoe they wear. Here is what I want from a coach and what I think will win a lot of games no matter the conference or environment.

I want a tough, physically and mentality, smart, and fundamentally sound team that knows the right play and is capable of making it. I want a culture and environment that wins at a high rate. When I think of this type of program I imagine something along the lines of Gonzaga und Few, Villanova under Wright, Michigan under Beilein, or to a lesser extent an FSU under or Notre Dame under Brey.

Over the last 20+ years we’ve failed to reestablish that culture. We’ve gone from letting the players run the ship to the players burning the ship down when their bong fell over to rehab for the drugs only to find out we have schizophrenia and waking up to where we are now.

I want to win as much as the next diehard IU fan. I’m not sure I’m willing to accept we have to go swim in the waters with U of 6, Arizona, U of No Classes, pUKe, Dook, LSU, or the many others.

How do we compete in today’s landscape?

We need to re-evaluate everything. We can’t change the fact that renovations were made to Assembly Hall instead of a new arena. We can’t change the locker rooms that have already been redone. We can look at other areas that would bring us up to date or ahead of the other top programs.

The athletic department can stop acting like IU basketball is just another sport. It’s the reason that 90% of fans are fans. That’s just the way it is and should be.

I’m as frustrated as anyone and badly want to see IU as a consistent winner. I just don’t see it in the cards under the present conditions. One can only hope but we all know what hope gets us..


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[wirenuts 1,055]

6 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

If Archie does not work then IU needs to go after a guy like Beard. Not some mid-major maybe but someone who has had sustained success. Even Beard has not had sustained success at the big time level but he seems to be that guy.

IU would need to bring in someone who will win. If that means $ then do it. They likely won’t and will try to find success with someone who had success at the lower level and hope that translates. It might but each time the miss they lose more and more of that fan base and donor money.

Alabama eventually brought in Saban. They tried the hot prospect route for a long time but eventually went after a proven coach. We don’t have the same level support ($) that Bama football has so we have more at risk when we miss.


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Yeah they should definitely go after beard... IU pays pretty well and would be a definite upgrade for pretty much any mid major coach. The question is though: who do they get if Chris beard says thanks but no thanks? Stevens and Donovan I dont think are walking through that door. 

Bruce Pearl has coached at two schools recently that are football schools, with basketball as the secondary. And I'm not sure indiana would want a bruce pearl, sampson, pitino etc to try to keep a squeaky clean image. 

There are a lot of posters that seem to want miller fired before the plane lands. I am as frustrated as everybody else, but who would we hire that would make it worth the buyout? 

Lastly, last time I checked, Fred glass is still here...do we actually want another coaching search done by the same people who did the last one. I think waiting on the new AD to pull the trigger makes much more sense. 

[MikeRoberts 6,998]

Yeah they should definitely go after beard... IU pays pretty well and would be a definite upgrade for pretty much any mid major coach. The question is though: who do they get if Chris beard says thanks but no thanks? Stevens and Donovan I dont think are walking through that door.  Bruce Pearl has coached at two schools recently that are football schools, with basketball as the secondary. And I'm not sure indiana would want a bruce pearl, sampson, pitino etc to try to keep a squeaky clean image. 

There are a lot of posters that seem to want miller fired before the plane lands. I am as frustrated as everybody else, but who would we hire that would make it worth the buyout? 

Lastly, last time I checked, Fred glass is still here...do we actually want another coaching search done by the same people who did the last one. I think waiting on the new AD to pull the trigger makes much more sense. 

 

I haven’t seen anyone call for a mid-season change but if the administration isn’t looking for the next basketball coach they aren’t doing their jobs.

 

That has to be a discussion that is happening behind the scenes. If this coach doesn’t make the tourney of 68 in year 3 after missing it in year 1 and 2 they have to be lining up buyout options and new coach options.

 

68 teams, that is a huge number of teams and we are nearing 3 years, really 5 in a row of not being a top 68 team.

 

That’s unfathomable

 

 

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[Golfman25 5,327]

The litany re Bob Knight just shows that the game changes.  Rule changes bring more competition and parity.  For the most part, Bobby adapted.  If Henderson doesn't blow out his knee, we probably have a better showing in 1992.  The 2002 appearance was essentially a Knight team.   

The problem with Archie is he doesn't adapt.  Offense sucks, so make a frigging change.  The failure to adapt kills mos coaches careers.  Archie needs to adapt now.  If he doesn't he should be gone. 

They need to get a new AD now.  No reason to wait on Glass to clean out his office. Things need to change and he's a lame duck.   If firing Archie is the first thing the new guy does then so be it.  Who's next. At this point almost anyone would be an upgrade.  

[Ryno6284 2,644]

BRAD STEVENS!  My man, it's time to come back to Indiana and make all right in the world!

[Bowhunter 2,693]

I wish Belien was younger.




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[HoosierAloha 30,068]

I wish Belien was younger.




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I had actually thought about this the other day. Heck, maybe he’ll tire of the NBA and return to college in a few years. He might not have many years left but I wouldn’t mind him “rebuilding a culture” here before handing it off to a successor.


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[Brass Cannon 24,701]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I had actually thought about this the other day. Heck, maybe he’ll tire of the NBA and return to college in a few years. He might not have many years left but I wouldn’t mind him “rebuilding a culture” here before handing it off to a successor.


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Hell just pay him for a recommendation at this point