19/20 Squad = Class Balance

[Honkyman]

If the turn-around happens this 2019-20 season then he would be a year ahead of Crean.  I'm in the "let's see what happens this year" mode.  The team has talent and if it doesn't produce then it is time to think about what next.

[monskisprodigy]

12 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Indiana not ranked in Andy Katz top 60 teams............

Remarkable what we’ve become.

First off, I think these type of rankings are ridiculous, BUT, based off EVERY metric, eyeball test, and recruiting outlook, Indiana should NEVER be outside of the the top 60.

Archie needs to eventually prove himself. Is this the year?

Illinois is in top 25 on this same list btw.


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Can you share a link to this list? I can only find his top 36 teams following the draft. 

[hoosierbgh]

16 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

There seems to be a pretty sizable chunk of the fan base ready to give him a pass on this next year. We lost our two best players I think is the logic there. I disagree but whatever. 

Our fanbase is surreal we crave success but are ridiculously patient with mediocrity

Patience can lead to success. Frequently throwing tantrums and demanding changes, on the other hand, is more likely to impede success than lead to it. 

[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, hoosierbgh said:

Patience can lead to success. Frequently throwing tantrums and demanding changes, on the other hand, is more likely to impede success than lead to it. 

Patience can lead to success. CAN. People ignoring the giant red flags we are seeing act like it WILL. 

Apparently expecting a guy who makes 3 million a year to make the tourney is throwing a tantrum. 

[JSHoosier]

Just now, Brass Cannon said:

Patience can lead to success. CAN. People ignoring the giant red flags we are seeing act like it WILL. 

Apparently expecting a guy who makes 3 million a year to make the tourney is throwing a tantrum. 

Frankly, we've been plenty patient IMO.  I think it's time to try something crazy like, I don't know, having expectations and holding coaches to those expectations.

[Hoosierfan2017]

12 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Thoughts from our Senior leader




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He must have deleted the tweet because I can't find it. Probably not something he should tweet, but I can't blame him for thinking it. Not exactly the same situation, but I've worked an unpaid internship before and not getting paid sucked. Obviously his 'job' comes with some sweet benefits, but still. 

[mdn82]

There seems to be a pretty sizable chunk of the fan base ready to give him a pass on this next year. We lost our two best players I think is the logic there. I disagree but whatever. 
Our fanbase is surreal we crave success but are ridiculously patient with mediocrity

Imo by the end of year three you should be able to sustain losing your two best players. I am not talking title contending but we should make the tournament. I know we didn’t last year but that’s on the program as a whole. Everyone should be looking at themselves right now and not feel safe.


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[WayneFleekHoosier]

Imo by the end of year three you should be able to sustain losing your two best players. I am not talking title contending but we should make the tournament. I know we didn’t last year but that’s on the program as a whole. Everyone should be looking at themselves right now and not feel safe.


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And therein lies the problem. It bleeds into recruiting as it did for Crean at the end.

Stability and success are huge factors. But you need one to have the other.


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[Hoosiers96]

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[Alford Bailey]

When you need a guard and its late

[mdn82]

And therein lies the problem. It bleeds into recruiting as it did for Crean at the end.

Stability and success are huge factors. But you need one to have the other.


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For sure. At this point it really hasn’t. Our 2020 class is shaping up as we thought it would as early as 2018. 2021 is going to be that class. If 2019-20 season goes bad that class would struggle. That’s why to me I think long and hard if we struggle this year, because that could be the makings of a team making of a deep run. That class is loaded. We can’t afford to send a lame duck coach into that class if that’s how it would play out.


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[Brass Cannon]

12 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

For sure. At this point it really hasn’t. Our 2020 class is shaping up as we thought it would as early as 2018. 2021 is going to be that class. If 2019-20 season goes bad that class would struggle. That’s why to me I think long and hard if we struggle this year, because that could be the makings of a team making of a deep run. That class is loaded. We can’t afford to send a lame duck coach into that class if that’s how it would play out.


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True. If this season is a disappointment we can either send a lame duck or a new coach that brings a lot of excitement. Not a hard choice. 

That being said I don’t think the standards of expectations are in place to get less than 4 years. Maybe even 5. 

[mdn82]

True. If this season is a disappointment we can either send a lame duck or a new coach that brings a lot of excitement. Not a hard choice. 
That being said I don’t think the standards of expectations are in place to get less than 4 years. Maybe even 5. 

I would seriously question my loyalty if we got to a fifth year if things don’t improve.


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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

He must have deleted the tweet because I can't find it. Probably not something he should tweet, but I can't blame him for thinking it. Not exactly the same situation, but I've worked an unpaid internship before and not getting paid sucked. Obviously his 'job' comes with some sweet benefits, but still. 

I saw it about 930- 1000 my time when I was scrolling through Twitter

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[hoosierbgh]

6 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Patience can lead to success. CAN. People ignoring the giant red flags we are seeing act like it WILL. 

Apparently expecting a guy who makes 3 million a year to make the tourney is throwing a tantrum. 

The problem is that certain people ALWAYS see giant red flags everywhere, whether or not they actually exist. Kind of like how to a guy with a hammer everything looks like a nail. Or perhaps the allegory of the boy who cried wolf is more apropos. Either way, the change you were clamoring for occurred and now,  less than two years in, you are already clamoring for change again. Why should anyone expect it to be any different this time if/when the change you are clamoring for again occurs? 

There is nothing wrong with having expectations but there is something wrong with constantly throwing tantrums when the expectations are not met especially when you never seem to evaluate whether or not the expectations are valid as thoroughly as you evaluate those that failed to meet them. There's a difference between having expectations and being entitled. 

 

[Brass Cannon]

6 minutes ago, hoosierbgh said:

The problem is that certain people ALWAYS see giant red flags everywhere, whether or not they actually exist. Kind of like how to a guy with a hammer everything looks like a nail. Or perhaps the allegory of the boy who cried wolf is more apropos. Either way, the change you were clamoring for occurred and now,  less than two years in, you are already clamoring for change again. Why should anyone expect it to be any different this time if/when the change you are clamoring for again occurs? 

There is nothing wrong with having expectations but there is something wrong with constantly throwing tantrums when the expectations are not met especially when you never seem to evaluate whether or not the expectations are valid as thoroughly as you evaluate those that failed to meet them. There's a difference between having expectations and being entitled. 

 

Your saying making the tourney last year was not valid?  

2 years in is more than enough time for tons of other coaches to make the tourney. But for Archie it’s unreasonable to expect it.

Holtmann made tourney year 1 at his last two stops I believe

Chris Mack made tourney year 1 at his last two stops I believe 

Chris Beard made tourney year 2

Will Wade year 2

Cal made it year 1

Greg Gard year 1

God knows how many more.  

Like I said. People want success but aren’t willing to handle mediocrity appropriately 

Archie Lost the initiative when he failed to stop the bleeding during the 1-12 streak. We went from swimming with the current to swimming against it.  And now we are going into year 3 with 1 option at PG. 

Two years is more than enough time to identify red flags in the coaching. Recruiting has already stalled. Another bad year and it’s going to be impossible. Failure is a self sustaining situation in college athletics. 

[MoyeNeeded]

2 hours ago, hoosierbgh said:

The problem is that certain people ALWAYS see giant red flags everywhere, whether or not they actually exist. Kind of like how to a guy with a hammer everything looks like a nail. Or perhaps the allegory of the boy who cried wolf is more apropos. Either way, the change you were clamoring for occurred and now,  less than two years in, you are already clamoring for change again. Why should anyone expect it to be any different this time if/when the change you are clamoring for again occurs? 

There is nothing wrong with having expectations but there is something wrong with constantly throwing tantrums when the expectations are not met especially when you never seem to evaluate whether or not the expectations are valid as thoroughly as you evaluate those that failed to meet them. There's a difference between having expectations and being entitled. 

 

X1000

[MoyeNeeded]

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

Your saying making the tourney last year was not valid?  

2 years in is more than enough time for tons of other coaches to make the tourney. But for Archie it’s unreasonable to expect it.

Holtmann made tourney year 1 at his last two stops I believe

Chris Mack made tourney year 1 at his last two stops I believe 

Chris Beard made tourney year 2

Will Wade year 2

Cal made it year 1

Greg Gard year 1

God knows how many more.  

Like I said. People want success but aren’t willing to handle mediocrity appropriately 

Archie Lost the initiative when he failed to stop the bleeding during the 1-12 streak. We went from swimming with the current to swimming against it.  And now we are going into year 3 with 1 option at PG. 

Two years is more than enough time to identify red flags in the coaching. Recruiting has already stalled. Another bad year and it’s going to be impossible. Failure is a self sustaining situation in college athletics. 

You will never, I repeat NEVER build a winning program if you toss aside coaches after 2 yrs if they don't deliver the high expectations by some. We as evidenced by our last 2 coaching searches already find it difficult to find a "so-called" top tier coach willing to put up with the 'results now, or else' overzealous fanbase. I'm so tired of hearing you complain about the drop off in recruiting. We are not a top program anymore and kids are not jumping at a chance to play for Indiana. I would say for what we are able to get at this time, it will take time for the program to blossom into a yearly contender. But, I guess if everyone had patience, this would be a damned boring forum.

[JSHoosier]

I don't think anyone expected to be a national title contender by this time, I know I didn't.  Just make the tournament, with a 68 team field it's not that difficult any more, is all I see people asking.  I don't think that's unreasonable.  Instead we gave zero effort far too many times and couldn't make the easiest shot in the game.  Expecting better than that is NEVER unreasonable.  Let's stop making excuses and call the failure what it is, failure on part of the staff and players, and expect them to fix it for this year.  That's not a high bar to reach, it's saying don't suck out loud at the most basic parts of the game.

Patience alone won't do anything.  We made excuses for 9 years while Tom Crean did a bad job of pretending to know what he was doing; in the name of 'patience' we made excuses for offering/signing the likes of Priller and April and Gelon.  Let's stop the excuses already.

This past season the staff and team failed by any measure that isn't comically low; they have to fix it for this year, make the tournament or tough decisions have to be made.  That's not setting a high bar.

[Brass Cannon]

2 hours ago, MoyeNeeded said:

You will never, I repeat NEVER build a winning program if you toss aside coaches after 2 yrs if they don't deliver the high expectations by some. We as evidenced by our last 2 coaching searches already find it difficult to find a "so-called" top tier coach willing to put up with the 'results now, or else' overzealous fanbase. I'm so tired of hearing you complain about the drop off in recruiting. We are not a top program anymore and kids are not jumping at a chance to play for Indiana. I would say for what we are able to get at this time, it will take time for the program to blossom into a yearly contender. But, I guess if everyone had patience, this would be a damned boring forum.

Nobody is saying fire Archie after 2 years. Recognizing Archie is in troubled waters and not making excuses for him is not the same as calling for him to be fired  

And point of fact Kentucky fired a guy because he wasn’t the guy in year 2. And our golden goose just chose to go set on their bench rather than start for us.