MSU....Heat on Izzo?

[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

1 minute ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Yes.

As opposed to, in the current system, allowing the sexual assault of 321,500, on average , innocent women each year?

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

If these individuals are innocent, let there be evidence that corroborates them. It's not a solution without cost, but our current system is completely broken when dealing withe sexual assault. Why continue to operate within a broken paradigm?

Well, then we're going to have to agree to disagree because I'm not willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people. 

[Brass Cannon 25,380]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Well, then we're going to have to agree to disagree because I'm not willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people. 

If they are men is apparently what you mean. 

[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

If they are men is apparently what you mean. 

What are you talking about? 

[Brass Cannon 25,380]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

What are you talking about? 

Innocent women are having their lives ruined everyday by a rigged system and you seemm to be arguing to keep it in place. 

 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

22 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Well, then we're going to have to agree to disagree because I'm not willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people. 

What are those 321,500 women? Are they not innocent? Basic logic is directing my argument - there are far more victims of sexual assault, reported and unreported, than victims of false accusations. Even if you assume the highest false accusation rate of 10%, that means there are 10x innocent victims of sexual assault for every one victim of false accusations.

[yogisballin 2,431]

Izzo’s players admitting to raping a woman, and he administered zero punishment (don’t tell me he handled it internal and made them *shudder* run laps) and let them play without recourse for their actions. He is a directly enabler of the growth in sexual assault on college campuses, athletics, and specifically MSU athletics.

Furthermore, an abundance of caution should be throw in the favor of the victims, not the accused. In our current situation, the perpetrators and enablers are reaping all of the support while victims’ stories of assault are reduced to hearsay. This is not our normal justice system; this is an institution that operates in its own quasi-jurisdiction. The leverage of those in power over those without creates an overwhelmingly unfair situation for victims. In these cases, I really believe it is far more important and valuable to side with the victims till the accused are proven innocent. The cost of possibly allowing rape culture and sexual assault to continue to be swept under the rug is too great, versus the cost of one individual’s reputation being questioned or tarnished.


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I’m not saying you’re wrong but when did they admit to raping a woman


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[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

20 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Innocent women are having their lives ruined everyday by a rigged system and you seemm to be arguing to keep it in place. 

 

That doesn't mean you should go from one extreme to the other. Their lives aren't being ruined by the "rigged system", they're being ruined by the individuals carrying out these actions. If you change to a guilty until proven innocent system there will still be rapists out there. This things will still happen. Only now, you increase the chances of innocent people being accused of rape also having their lives ruined. 

[cthomas 6,613]

Sexual relationships between men and women, especially young men and women, is a complicated game. I have two daughters and four granddaughters so just these issues are always on my mind. A crime is a crime no matter where it takes place. University administrators and athletic departments have no business handling criminal issues. Victims should be encouraged to pursue charges with the appropriate authorities so that our legal system can discover the truth and assess penalties. We, as a society, cannot continue to tolerate a culture of entitlement for athletes and the resulting devaluation of women. I believe in protecting the rights of the accused and the principle of due process. However, for due process to work, both the victim and the accused have to have their day in court.

[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

20 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

What are those 321,500 women? Are they not innocent? Basic logic is directing my argument - there are far more victims of sexual assault, reported and unreported, than victims of false accusations. Even if you assume the highest false accusation rate of 10%, that means there are 10x innocent victims of sexual assault for every one victim of false accusations.

It is honestly frightening to me that normal, well-adjusted people on here are advocating for a guilty until proven innocent standard. If that's what you guys think, I don't want to imagine what the more extreme people want.

I'm not willing to sacrifice innocent people because I wouldn't be willing for it to happen to me. Would you be willing to have your life ruined for this cause, or is it easier for you to advocate your position because you know you're not at risk of being the unlucky guy thrown out of school for a false rape allegation? 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

18 minutes ago, yogisballin said:

I’m not saying you’re wrong but when did they admit to raping a woman


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Here is the article which was the basis of that comment  : http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

If you scroll about halfway through, the article discusses the incident with Keith Appling and Adrian Payne. I went back and edited my original post to reflect that they did not formally admit, and included the above article. 

[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

1 minute ago, cthomas said:

Sexual relationships between men and women, especially young men and women, is a complicated game. I have two daughters and four granddaughters so just these issues are always on my mind. A crime is a crime no matter where it takes place. University administrators and athletic departments have no business handling criminal issues. Victims should be encouraged to pursue charges with the appropriate authorities so that our legal system can discover the truth and assess penalties. We, as a society, cannot continue to tolerate a culture of entitlement for athletes and the resulting devaluation of women. I believe in protecting the rights of the accused and the principle of due process. However, for due process to work, both the victim and the accused have to have their day in court.

I agree with this 100%. I still don't understand why Tom Izzo had anything to do with the situation in the first place. He shouldn't be the guy handling allegations, it should be the police. 

[ebridges24 2,532]

1 hour ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Research suggests that false reporting of sexual assault ranges between only 2-10% of cases, on par with most other criminal accusations. Research also suggests that 40-63% of sexual assaults are NEVER reported for various reasons - embarrassment, fear of the public reaction, fear that the victim won't be believed, fear of the individual who committed the assault, etc.

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297

Prosecution rates for sexual assault cases are ABYSMALLY low, so the number of "false" reports of sexual assault are also inflated by decisions of "no crime" where there was not enough evidence or the prosecution chose not to prosecute - that does not necessarily mean that the victim lied or falsely reported sexual assault.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

What I listed above is disturbing. 

Now, out of context, I understand why "guilty till proven innocent" will bother any American raised on the principles of our judicial system. The American justice system is the institutional power, therefore, the burden of proof is placed on them in order to give the accused, who posses far fewer resources and lesser influence, a fair chance. When we add to this discussion the context of college athletics, the vested interest of men who hold more power than the individuals in place to prevent sexual assault and protect victims in the innocence of the accused , and the economic power behind a thriving athletics institution, which party do you believe needs the support and the benefit of the doubt in order to have a fair chance at obtaining justice?

 

This is ridiculous,  everything is flipped from the way it should be.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

That doesn't mean you should go from one extreme to the other. Their lives aren't being ruined by the "rigged system", they're being ruined by the individuals carrying out these actions. If you change to a guilty until proven innocent system there will still be rapists out there. This things will still happen. Only now, you increase the chances of innocent people being accused of rape also having their lives ruined. 

This also increases the chances that rapists go to prison, and the rate of unreported and unpunished sexual assault decreases, thus increasing the effectiveness of the justice system.

6 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

It is honestly frightening to me that normal, well-adjusted people on here are advocating for a guilty until proven innocent standard. If that's what you guys think, I don't want to imagine what the more extreme people want.

I'm not willing to sacrifice innocent people because I wouldn't be willing for it to happen to me. Would you be willing to have your life ruined for this cause, or is it easier for you to advocate your position because you know you're not at risk of being the unlucky guy thrown out of school for a false rape allegation? 

It doesn't need to be a pure "guilty until proven innocent" policy. The argument is clear to me that giving benefit of the doubt to the accuser in sexual assault cases is statistically and morally the correct course of action. I am advocating for a major change to the way we handle sexual assault, specifically withing college athletics where the balance of power is overwhelmingly in favor of the athletic institutions.

I'm frightened that normal, well-adjusted people can't see that the current system is broken and causing far greater harm than you are afraid a change may cause.

[yogisballin 2,431]

Here is the article which was the basis of that comment  : http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn
If you scroll about halfway through, the article discusses the incident with Keith Appling and Adrian Payne. I went back and edited my original post to reflect that they did not formally admit, and included the above article. 

Thanks


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[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

9 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

This also increases the chances that rapists go to prison, and the rate of unreported and unpunished sexual assault decreases, thus increasing the effectiveness of the justice system.

It doesn't need to be a pure "guilty until proven innocent" policy. The argument is clear to me that giving benefit of the doubt to the accuser in sexual assault cases is statistically and morally the correct course of action. I am advocating for a major change to the way we handle sexual assault, specifically withing college athletics where the balance of power is overwhelmingly in favor of the athletic institutions.

I'm frightened that normal, well-adjusted people can't see that the current system is broken and causing far greater harm than you are afraid a change may cause.

I actually agree with you that the system is broken. I want it changed too, we just have different opinions on what we think that change should be. I want the university removed from the situation entirely. Tom Izzo never should've been in a situation where he was able to cover up the allegations in the first place. Rape is a crime, and investigating that crime should be left to the police to do like they would if the accused was a regular joe instead of a college student. 

[Brass Cannon 25,380]

Lol police are worthless at investigating rapes. 

[Hoosierfan2017 24,649]

Just now, Brass Cannon said:

Lol police are worthless at investigating rapes. 

If the police (the people trained and in charge of investigating crimes) are "worthless" at investigating rapes, do you really think athletic departments are going to do a better job at it? 

[cthomas 6,613]

10 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

the current system is broken and causing far greater harm than you are afraid a change may cause.

Absolutely the system is broken in the manner it is being applied. The problem is that a segment of society believes that the system doesn't apply to them. In that sense we are all enablers because we have allowed it to exist. When enough of us no longer look the other way, then change will be possible. Listening to the statements of Izzo and Dantonio tells me all I need to know about their lack of understanding the issues in front of them. That alone shows how deeply entrenched those faulty attitudes are.

[Brass Cannon 25,380]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

If the police (the people trained and in charge of investigating crimes) are "worthless" at investigating rapes, do you really think athletic departments are going to do a better job at it? 

Im not arguing for that. But leaving the system as is tells me you really only care about potential victims if they are men. 

Current system doesnt care about victims one tiny bit

[ElectricBoogaloo 4,319]

26 minutes ago, cthomas said:

Sexual relationships between men and women, especially young men and women, is a complicated game. I have two daughters and four granddaughters so just these issues are always on my mind. A crime is a crime no matter where it takes place. University administrators and athletic departments have no business handling criminal issues. Victims should be encouraged to pursue charges with the appropriate authorities so that our legal system can discover the truth and assess penalties. We, as a society, cannot continue to tolerate a culture of entitlement for athletes and the resulting devaluation of women. I believe in protecting the rights of the accused and the principle of due process. However, for due process to work, both the victim and the accused have to have their day in court.

And they don't handle criminal issues. University administrators and athletic departments handle disciplinary issues. As has been mentioned above, rapists are rarely convicted in criminal court due the standard of evidence required to put someone behind bars. There is a lower standard of evidence in university disciplinary investigations which makes sense.

Title IX requires that universities have a hand in investigating sexual misconduct on their campuses. So the idea that they have "no business" investigating these events is ridiculous on its face.