TOM CREAN FIRED

[mdn82 26,344]

I think you're being generous on his recruiting. Historically he's probably been a 7.5 out of 10, but if you looked at his recruiting as of today, the miss on Wilkes and not being able to recruit any top talent from Indiana since Blackmon, makes me think his recruiting ability is closer to a 4/5 out of 10.

A 4/5 out of 10 would be extreme considering he is pulling a ranked class every year for the most part. I think Wayne was pretty accurate. A 10 being UK, Duke, or Kansas. He is a step below the Arizona's, UCLA, or UNC. I think 7 out of 10 is a good number. We need a 9 here. 1 and done consistently would turn a lot of people away here. I think recruiting should be more like UNC with a better coach and most would be happier. Give me Holtman or someone like that and I am content.


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[Hoosierfan2017 25,303]

57 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

I'd say he's good, but not great.

I'd put walk-ons getting significant minutes on his WTF substitutions, at least partly.

That's true. Why McRoberts is getting around the same number of minutes as Green/Davis/Cujo is beyond me. 

[JSHoosier 22,281]

11 minutes ago, KingPG21 said:

I think your comments on recruiting are spot on. A lot of our fans talk real high about his recruiting because he has found gems, Vic, OG, Sheehey (not to the extent of the other guys, but before he was asked to take way too big a role as a senior he was a great find). But I mean...... he takes so many big risks on bigs. And that with his seeming lack of track record with developing bigs, see Cody's lack of significant leap from freshman to sophomore year whereas in the NBA he has made big strides. Or Hanner never learning how to do something as simple as catching the ball and never seeming to know much of anything about defensive positioning. And now Bryant who hasn't made as big a jump from his freshman year that we were hoping for. I guess what I'm trying to say is his player development is a bit overhyped by our fans too, given his lack of pedigree for developing bigs. 

He's shown he can develop guards/wings, but big development leaves a lot to be desired.

[AKHoosier 7,796]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I'm not trying to be confrontational. If we don't think he can get us to another banner then why keep him around? A national championship should be the goal for IU. If your coach isn't capable of delivering one, then you move on. Maybe there isn't anyone out there who can that we could get, but that doesn't mean we should hold on to a guy who has proven that he can't. You'll never score if you don't shoot.

Sure it's possible that we catch fire at the right time and make a Final 4 run, but nothing in Crean's career makes me think that will ever happen. He's made it past the sweet 16 once in his life, and that was with a top 5 shooting guard of all time in his backcourt. He can't make in game adjustments. If his pre-game game plan isn't working then we're screwed. He doesn't ride the hot hand, his in-game substitutions seem to have very little to do with on court performance. That's not going to get you deep into the tournament. 

I'm not trying to be confrontational either because I think we're generally on the same page.

However, you're contradicting yourself a ton here.  You're saying our coach has proven he can't win a national championship (which is absurd).  Then theoretically, we should only consider Coach K., Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Kevin Ollie, Billy Donovan, or Jay Wright, correct?  Because those are the only guys who have proven they can win one.  If you want to make the argument that we need to get rid of him because he's proven he isn't capable of delivering a national title, then you have to eliminate guys like Archie Miller, Chris Holtmann, Andy Enfield, Brad Stevens, and Gregg Marshall because they've all "proven" they can't deliver one either.

If nothing in Crean's career makes you think that reaching a Final 4 will happen, then why do you choose to ignore direct evidence that he can reach a Final 4?  I don't care if it was with Wade or not, he did get there and you can spin it any way you want to.

Look, I've already said I don't think we'll be consistently elite under Crean, but to get rid of him because "he's proven he can't win a national championship" is ridiculous.  You don't know the future and neither do I.  It's entirely possible we get good matchups and have a deep run into the tournament this year.

[BGleas 9,047]

2 hours ago, Yogi's Picnic Basket said:

 

 

Ainge loves Brad to an extent. He stated this year after they got Horford, the goal was to challenge the Cavs. Ainge got rid of Doc Rivers like it was nothing, because that is just the kinda GM Ainge is. He is obsessed with winning. A lot of Stevens job future holds if they truly believe they can get that third guy. If they can't Ainge will eventually become unhappy and Stevens will know regardless of how good of a coach he is, that a title is unlikely. If the Jazz lock Gordon up to an extension before the year ends then it becomes more possible than it probably ever will for awhile for IU & Stevens. Most on here think there is no way, but I watch the NBA mostly night to night and only being 5 games over has put Ainge in panic mode. If they don't advance to the ECF this year I am telling you it very well could happen.

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Aigne didn't get rid of Doc Rivers. Ainge and ownership wanted Doc to stay, but Doc didn't want to "start over" as the team was getting ready to move on from Pierce and Garnett. Doc didn't want to go back to rebuilding, so Ainge and Doc agreed on a mutal parting of the ways. Doc and Aigne are still close and have a good relationship, and Celtics ownership still loves Doc. 

As as far as Stevens, Aigne and ownership also really, really love him. When the ownership and Aigne really like a coach they will give him plenty of time, losing will not deter them. I was there when the Celtics were really struggling, and fans were screaming for Doc to be fired and it was never even considered by ownership or Ainge, they loved and believed in Doc and they do in Stevens too. 

The he reason for the Celtics slow start this year is simply health. Thomas, Horford and Crowder have all already missed considerable time. When healthy, the Celtics are something like 12-4. They've been really good when healthy. They should advance at least a round in the playoffs this year, and if matchups work out they could go to the ECF. But no, they're not a title contender year. But, the Celtics have a ton of assets and will make some deals to become a contender. 

Lomg story short, the Celtics love Stevens and will be extremely patient with him. My educated guess is that if Stevens leaves the Celtics anytime soon it's because he chose too, not because the Celtics fired him. 

[recker222000 1,010]

A 4/5 out of 10 would be extreme considering he is pulling a ranked class every year for the most part. I think Wayne was pretty accurate. A 10 being UK, Duke, or Kansas. He is a step below the Arizona's, UCLA, or UNC. I think 7 out of 10 is a good number. We need a 9 here. 1 and done consistently would turn a lot of people away here. I think recruiting should be more like UNC with a better coach and most would be happier. Give me Holtman or someone like that and I am content.


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Given what we pay crean yes recruiting should be a 9.

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[bhaggard89 869]

I'm just curious.  If Coach Tom Crean is that bad, why is he the only coach to win the B1G outright two out of four years in the last eight or nine years?

Those are fine and dandy. But Purdue always argued that they had the most B1G championships, and our counter argument was "well we have 5 National Titles to your 0."
Moral of the story- tournament performance supersedes regular season and big ten titles.


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[HoosierAloha 30,102]

Did you really find it necessary to ask that question?  I think it's fairly obvious that I pretty much don't, given the last paragraph in my post.

The thing is though, I don't think Crean is a bad coach.  Most people, some even on this board, want to point to guys like Tony Bennett and Bo Ryan as great coaches who teach solid fundamentals, but they all seem to forget that before Bo's final 2 years, he was always known as a coach who could never perform in the tournament either.  His teams were always getting bounced early by double-digit seeds, and then all of a sudden he's a great coach after he goes to 2 consecutive Final Fours.

Same with Tony Bennett, who seems to under-perform in the tournament pretty regularly.

You and me both can think he's not capable of getting to a Final 4 at IU or winning a national championship, but we don't know that.  The only thing for certain is that we still have 18 games left to be played, and it's possible we could go 14-4 the rest of the way, get a good seed in the NCAA tournament, and end up getting favorable match-ups and getting hot at the right time sending us to a Final 4.

Bo Ryan and Tony Bennet at IU would outperform what they did or doing at their current schools.

Why did Bo Ryan have success in his final two years? He had more talent and tweaked his system to fit that talent. Not to mention the dude finished outside the top 4 in the B1G a grand total of zero times. The B1G was pretty strong in many of those years. He also had success in the BTT. Give him the talent Indiana could pull and we would have plenty to talk about. We might not be on the Duke, puke, and Kansas level but we'd be right under that. I'd be elated with that success.

Tony Bennet is in that same category. He'll get it done at a lesser school before Crean does at IU.

[Bowhunter 3,129]

2 hours ago, Yogi's Picnic Basket said:

 

 

Ainge loves Brad to an extent. He stated this year after they got Horford, the goal was to challenge the Cavs. Ainge got rid of Doc Rivers like it was nothing, because that is just the kinda GM Ainge is. He is obsessed with winning. A lot of Stevens job future holds if they truly believe they can get that third guy. If they can't Ainge will eventually become unhappy and Stevens will know regardless of how good of a coach he is, that a title is unlikely. If the Jazz lock Gordon up to an extension before the year ends then it becomes more possible than it probably ever will for awhile for IU & Stevens. Most on here think there is no way, but I watch the NBA mostly night to night and only being 5 games over has put Ainge in panic mode. If they don't advance to the ECF this year I am telling you it very well could happen.

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I agree with ya but don't you think Stevens could just go to another NBA team and cosh them? I'm sure many GM's would be happy to hire him and pay him more than a college team could other than maybe UK.

[mdn82 26,344]

Bo Ryan and Tony Bennet at IU would outperform what they did or doing at their current schools.

Why did Bo Ryan have success in his final two years? He had more talent and tweaked his system to fit that talent. Not to mention the dude finished outside the top 4 in the B1G a grand total of zero times. The B1G was pretty strong in many of those years. He also had success in the BTT. Give him the talent Indiana could pull and we would have plenty to talk about. We might not be on the Duke, puke, and Kansas level but we'd be right under that. I'd be elated with that success.

Tony Bennet is in that same category. He'll get it done at a lesser school before Crean does at IU.

I am not sold Ryan would have brought more talent in just because it's Indiana. His style of play is not conducive to top talent. Top talent wants to get to the NBA. Top talent wants to run. Bennett I think could do better here due to the name. Although he turned us down once. Situation and AD are different obviously. One thing I am thankful for Crean is the brand is in a better spot than when he got here. Not lofty expectations, but we were a dumpster fire when he came in.


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[AKHoosier 7,796]

1 hour ago, HoosierAloha said:

Bo Ryan and Tony Bennet at IU would outperform what they did or doing at their current schools.

Why did Bo Ryan have success in his final two years? He had more talent and tweaked his system to fit that talent. Not to mention the dude finished outside the top 4 in the B1G a grand total of zero times. The B1G was pretty strong in many of those years. He also had success in the BTT. Give him the talent Indiana could pull and we would have plenty to talk about. We might not be on the Duke, puke, and Kansas level but we'd be right under that. I'd be elated with that success.

Tony Bennet is in that same category. He'll get it done at a lesser school before Crean does at IU.

Objection.

Speculation.

[Hoosierfan2017 25,303]

2 hours ago, AKHoosier said:

I'm not trying to be confrontational either because I think we're generally on the same page.

However, you're contradicting yourself a ton here.  You're saying our coach has proven he can't win a national championship (which is absurd).  Then theoretically, we should only consider Coach K., Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Kevin Ollie, Billy Donovan, or Jay Wright, correct?  Because those are the only guys who have proven they can win one.  If you want to make the argument that we need to get rid of him because he's proven he isn't capable of delivering a national title, then you have to eliminate guys like Archie Miller, Chris Holtmann, Andy Enfield, Brad Stevens, and Gregg Marshall because they've all "proven" they can't deliver one either.

If nothing in Crean's career makes you think that reaching a Final 4 will happen, then why do you choose to ignore direct evidence that he can reach a Final 4?  I don't care if it was with Wade or not, he did get there and you can spin it any way you want to.

Look, I've already said I don't think we'll be consistently elite under Crean, but to get rid of him because "he's proven he can't win a national championship" is ridiculous.  You don't know the future and neither do I.  It's entirely possible we get good matchups and have a deep run into the tournament this year.

We can't predict the future but we can use the past to make educated guesses about what the future will hold. If I start dating a girl who has cheated on her last five boyfriends I can't say with absolute certainty that she will cheat on me, but I can look at prior history and make an educated guess. I can't say with absolute certainty that Crean will never win a title here, but I can look at his postseason history and his coaching weaknesses and make an educated guess that it's unlikely that he gets us to a final four. He's done it once in 17 years and a Dwyane Wade caliber player isn't walking through the doors to put on an IU jersey anytime soon. It wasn't fair for me to discredit his final 4 because all the successful coaches have had studs help them along the way, but I'm worried that Crean can't consistently get the elite players that you need to compete for titles. For whatever reason we seem to miss on a lotttt of our top priorities.

I probably shouldn't use absolutes to make my point because you're right that it's inaccurate to say Crean has proven he can't win a championship. I didn't follow him when he was at Marquette but I haven't seen much from him in his 8+ years here that makes me confident that he's going to put it together and win a national championship. He's been here for a long enough time for me to think that what we've seen from him is what we're going to get.     He has to at least get us past the sweet 16 before I start seeing him as a possible guy who can be our long-term coach and get us back to an elite level. 

[Trish 14,538]

Sweet 16 Crean. That's his name to me.

Anyone remember that post from a MU years ago stating what to expect from Crean at IU? He was literally dead on. Spot on on each point he made. Maybe I can try to dig that up but it was very eye opening then and especially should be now.


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[8bucks 7,621]

I think Crean can definitely win a championship here. If you look at the Vic/Cody year where we lost to Syracuse, we were dominant early in the year. We won at MSU, at OSU at PU and later at Michigan. We had a stretch before the MSU game where we were on a roll and had the tournament been in February I believe we could have won.

He also took a team with Dwade to the FF.

Gary Williams won a championship with Maryland.

Mike Davis took us to a championship game.

Nolan Richardson won one at Arkansas.

I am sure there are many other examples of coaches who had one six game shinning moment and got the championship. Crean is just as capable.

Now, the problem is Crean does not seem like a guy who will take a very good team to the tournament frequently. Bill Self is a great frequency guy - consistently getting a highly ranked team into the tournament with a chance to win it all. He just isn't a great tournament coach. Frequency guys need to get very good teams there a lot in order to find that championship.

Crean also does not seem to have his teams peak at the right times. BS got very good at getting Butler to win and advance in the tourney. His teams peaked at the right time. Crean currently is not this type of coach either.

I had hoped that Crean was turning into a frequency guy. Finding strong 3-4 star kids that stay and develop and compliment with a few 5 star kids so that each year you field a top 15 team that can get hot.

His recruiting misses this year have me a little more concerned than our loss to Nebraska because that will hurt the frequency model.

[biteoftheapple 4,115]

Sweet 16 Crean. That's his name to me.

Anyone remember that post from a MU years ago stating what to expect from Crean at IU? He was literally dead on. Spot on on each point he made. Maybe I can try to dig that up but it was very eye opening then and especially should be now.


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This may be the article.

http://chriswesthoops.blogspot.com/2008/04/tom-creans-leaving-huh.html?m=1

[yogisballin 2,462]

It's making me sad reading this thread. From what we're saying, we at least have 2-3 years of Crean basketball. That just doesn't sit right with me. I'll probably still watch the games but won't care all too much


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Hey it started before last season began for me. I still tuned into every game. He took advantage of a weak B1G schedge last year. And haven't watched a game since UNC. Have DVR'd the Butler and Neb game. Started to watch the Butler but couldn't get thru the 1st half


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[Hovadipo 62,379]

Do you really feel ostracized? Persecuted? I mean, really, tell me. If you don't want to do it here PM me and we'll have that conversation.

I'm pretty sure we leave everyone alone unless it starts bleeding into the recruiting threads and even then we let it go for the most part until I get a PM about it. I don't think we've handed out a warning point in months. Could be wrong about that but I don't think I am.

The anti-crean stuff is everywhere and WE get it. It isn't like a lot of us don't understand he isn't the ultimate answer.

PM's are mean.


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[Brass Cannon 25,770]

10 hours ago, hoosierpap said:

Do you really feel ostracized? Persecuted? I mean, really, tell me. If you don't want to do it here PM me and we'll have that conversation.

I'm pretty sure we leave everyone alone unless it starts bleeding into the recruiting threads and even then we let it go for the most part until I get a PM about it. I don't think we've handed out a warning point in months. Could be wrong about that but I don't think I am.

The anti-crean stuff is everywhere and WE get it. It isn't like a lot of us don't understand he isn't the ultimate answer.

I don't feel persecuted. But there have definitely been times when my unwavering support for firing crean has gotten me openly mocked. Sometimes by a Mod. 

I was criticized for still wanting crean gone after the UNC loss while everybody else seemed to find some moral victory. 

What I instead saw was an IU team capable of beating an elite team one day then getting blown out the next because a lack of discipline. Defense that was optional and etc. 

high off this moral victory of yet another sweet sixteen loss it was somehow taboo to want crean gone. 

[JSHoosier 22,281]

27 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I don't feel persecuted. But there have definitely been times when my unwavering support for firing crean has gotten me openly mocked. Sometimes by a Mod. 

I was criticized for still wanting crean gone after the UNC loss while everybody else seemed to find some moral victory. 

What I instead saw was an IU team capable of beating an elite team one day then getting blown out the next because a lack of discipline. Defense that was optional and etc. 

high off this moral victory of yet another sweet sixteen loss it was somehow taboo to want crean gone. 

There's a reason I haven't been as active.  Too many posters that want nothing but roses and rainbows and can't handle people being critical of Crean.

[recker222000 1,010]

There's a reason I haven't been as active.  Too many posters that want nothing but roses and rainbows and can't handle people being

Its the snow flake generation guys. Everyone gets a trophy even for the sweet sixeteen.

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