TOM CREAN FIRED

[hoosierpap 14,300]

Brass is a disgruntled fan. Brass is voicing his opinion. Brass does it in a fair manner.

People that post about "negative/often true" remarks regarding our program get "attacked/mocked/etc"" by a team of 4 or 5.
It has always been this way. I am sure he feels the same way I feel as a poster when these things happen. I am posting less because of it.

I fully understand when it bleeds into individual recruiting pages, especially ad naseum.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

Thats fair. You're a mod, moderate those attacking you or him or whoever. Or tell me about it and i'll do it.

[indy317219 97]

The issue at hand is that most fans comprehend who Crean is and isn't. Having salient points on both sides isn't a bad thing. When we take it to extremes the argument becomes diluted and illogical. Reason always rests in the middle of any debate.

[Trish 11,673]

I'm just curious.  If Coach Tom Crean is that bad, why is he the only coach to win the B1G outright two out of four years in the last eight or nine years?

I'd say a lot of us are more worried about Crean's ability to make us a top 5 program again. Right now, we are just average, simply average. We've been average year after year. We'll win games and lose some that we shouldn't have. Once we get to the post season, we'll do our usual terrible performance in the B1g tourney and then reach our championship game we call the sweet 16.

Everything is so typical , so predictable, when it comes to Indiana basketball. We lose to teams that simply have the higher basketball IQ and have coaches that make adjustments. It's just Indiana Basketball at this point. Want to beat us? Prevent us from hitting 3's and slow the tempo down. That's been like that for the last 4 or 5 years at least.

Crean is a great teacher, amazing communicator. However , he's not a very good HEAD coach. I don't see him ever taking Indiana to a final four. I thought he turned the corner last year, but this year has been looking like 2010-2014.




Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,619]

I'd say a lot of us are more worried about Crean's ability to make us a top 5 program again. Right now, we are just average, simply average.




Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

I agree about the top 5 program goal. We are better than average though. We are probably a top 20-30 type program right now. We should want to be better. I know the coaches want us to be better. I'm not sure the administration demands it.

Can we be with Crean? That's the 3 million dollar question.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

[Trish 11,673]

I agree about the top 5 program goal. We are better than average though. We are probably a top 20-30 type program right now. We should want to be better. I know the coaches want us to be better. I'm not sure the administration demands it.

Can we be with Crean? That's the 3 million dollar question.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

"It's Indiana" "Its Indiana" -Tom Crean when he first got hired.

"This is Indiana" "We're Back" T-Shirts. Those T-Shirts were selling the fact that this is a top 5 program. Here at Indiana, we expect to compete for a championship year after year. Anything less than at least a final four is a disappointment.

In my opinion, if we're not a top 5 program like we should be because it's "Indiana" then we are simply just average. It's hard to compete for a championship year after year.. but look at Duke.. look at Kentucky. Their fans expect that year after year..

Do we?

I don't think so.





Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[hoosierpap 14,300]

I agree about the top 5 program goal. We are better than average though. We are probably a top 20-30 type program right now. We should want to be better. I know the coaches want us to be better. I'm not sure the administration demands it.

Can we be with Crean? That's the 3 million dollar question.

Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

Demands it? I don't think so. IU athletics are doing fine from a financial standpoint.

Fan support isn't really going to move the needle when you're still ranked and all. Barring a total collapse- which is not going to happen- and even then I don't think it makes a difference this year.

Without a scandal or something, boosters are the only real way something gets done fast like many are asking for here. I sat on the 4th row for the Nebraska game (I get to Assembly Hall like once a year) and those guys aren't nearly as reactionary as this board. Right or wrong, they just aren't. I've been around some of them my whole life, as some on here know. They love IU, but they don't react like that with their money.

I get the counter that you guys are having a reaction to a bigger picture. One big banker I was talking to right after the game said " Yup, afraid this is just the same ol' Crean. Average. He's bringing in good kids, just gotta wait it out. " or something to that effect.

I maybe should have pushed him a little on what exactly he meant but had a bad experience with that once...not fun ;)

[AKHoosier 7,033]

36 minutes ago, Treesh said:

 

 

I'd say a lot of us are more worried about Crean's ability to make us a top 5 program again. Right now, we are just average, simply average. We've been average year after year. We'll win games and lose some that we shouldn't have. Once we get to the post season, we'll do our usual terrible performance in the B1g tourney and then reach our championship game we call the sweet 16.

Everything is so typical , so predictable, when it comes to Indiana basketball. We lose to teams that simply have the higher basketball IQ and have coaches that make adjustments. It's just Indiana Basketball at this point. Want to beat us? Prevent us from hitting 3's and slow the tempo down. That's been like that for the last 4 or 5 years at least.

Crean is a great teacher, amazing communicator. However , he's not a very good HEAD coach. I don't see him ever taking Indiana to a final four. I thought he turned the corner last year, but this year has been looking like 2010-2014.




Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

 

 

I'd say you can have plenty of gripes with Crean, but this post is pretty far off base.

We are not average right now.  We are above average.  If an "average" program can win their conference outright twice in 4 years and go to 3 Sweet 16s, then how many programs out there are average?

You say "we'll win games and lose some that we shouldn't have."  Well, I'd say that's the case with every team and program in the entire country.  The fact is Tom Crean has beaten more top 25 teams in the past 6 years than anyone outside of Bill Self.  That's nothing to hang a banner for, yet it's nothing to sneeze at either.

Just off the top of my head without doing research, Kansas lost to TCU recently.  Kentucky has lost to Auburn, LSU, and Tennessee.  North Carolina lost to Northern Iowa.  This stuff happens all the time in a 31-game regular season.  And oh yeah, 3 of our recent wins have been against Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina.

But I agree with some of your premise though.  IU will probably never be elite under Tom Crean.  We'll be above average, like we are now, but we won't be joining Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas at the top under him.  If you look at his record before he even came to IU, his teams averaged 21-11 in the regular season.  I'd say we're pretty much headed there this year.  Still too early to throw in the towel on this year though, although a home loss to a 6-6 Nebraska team is certainly not a good sign.

[Hoosierfan2017 21,795]

46 minutes ago, AKHoosier said:

I'd say you can have plenty of gripes with Crean, but this post is pretty far off base.

We are not average right now.  We are above average.  If an "average" program can win their conference outright twice in 4 years and go to 3 Sweet 16s, then how many programs out there are average?

You say "we'll win games and lose some that we shouldn't have."  Well, I'd say that's the case with every team and program in the entire country.  The fact is Tom Crean has beaten more top 25 teams in the past 6 years than anyone outside of Bill Self.  That's nothing to hang a banner for, yet it's nothing to sneeze at either.

Just off the top of my head without doing research, Kansas lost to TCU recently.  Kentucky has lost to Auburn, LSU, and Tennessee.  North Carolina lost to Northern Iowa.  This stuff happens all the time in a 31-game regular season.  And oh yeah, 3 of our recent wins have been against Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina.

But I agree with some of your premise though.  IU will probably never be elite under Tom Crean.  We'll be above average, like we are now, but we won't be joining Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas at the top under him.  If you look at his record before he even came to IU, his teams averaged 21-11 in the regular season.  I'd say we're pretty much headed there this year.  Still too early to throw in the towel on this year though, although a home loss to a 6-6 Nebraska team is certainly not a good sign.

Do you believe that Crean is capable of building a team that can win a national championship and then getting them there? If you don't, then what's the point of keeping him here? Go out and find a guy who can. 

[OliviaPope40 6,613]

My mother told me at dinner last night that she thinks Crean is a good recruiter but not a good coach.

[Yogi's Picnic Basket 5,004]

I don't think Stevens ever returns to coaching.  When he wants to quit coaching the Celts, he's done coaching period.  He'll be a GM somewhere in the NBA (maybe Ainge's job) or possibly an AD at a major university.  I don't believe he has any desire to get back into the recruiting wars of college basketball.

Ainge loves Brad to an extent. He stated this year after they got Horford, the goal was to challenge the Cavs. Ainge got rid of Doc Rivers like it was nothing, because that is just the kinda GM Ainge is. He is obsessed with winning. A lot of Stevens job future holds if they truly believe they can get that third guy. If they can't Ainge will eventually become unhappy and Stevens will know regardless of how good of a coach he is, that a title is unlikely. If the Jazz lock Gordon up to an extension before the year ends then it becomes more possible than it probably ever will for awhile for IU & Stevens. Most on here think there is no way, but I watch the NBA mostly night to night and only being 5 games over has put Ainge in panic mode. If they don't advance to the ECF this year I am telling you it very well could happen.

Sent from my LGLS676 using BtownBanners mobile app

[Yogi's Picnic Basket 5,004]

I'm also in the camp on the names out there that I posted and probably adding Holtmann and a few more aren't that much better than Crean. If we don't finish this year strong as good of a coach as he is IMO it is just time for change. Not that Crean can't get us to an elite level because he has been on the cusp quite a bit. I just think a new face may be what the program needs if we struggle the rest of the year. I think Purdue is the favorite to win the B1G at this time, but if we finish in the top 3 and make it to the sweet sixteen I say give Crean another year. The candidates out there just aren't that much better if at all. Stevens, Bennett & Enfield along with Mack would all be great though. Idk about Holtman. Let us finish the year first, but if Stevens becomes a real possibility.....sorry Crean HAS to go.

Sent from my LGLS676 using BtownBanners mobile app

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,619]

My mother told me at dinner last night that she thinks Crean is a good recruiter but not a good coach.

That's the layman public perception.

I think Crean is far overrated as a recruiter. I think he is probably slightly underrated by our fanbase as a coach.

I think public perception by our fanbase:
Recruiting 9.5/10
Coaching 2/10

I think reality is closer to:
Recruiting 7.5/10
Coaching 5/10

He has his strengths. Player development, offensive spacing, transition game, teams usually rebound well for their size, getting guys to play hard for him (hard, not smart), recruiting is a strength too, but not nearly as much as many believe.

His weaknesses: bad feel for substitutions, seems to try to follow a pregamed sub plan. Bad out of timeouts, bad with defending and executing in-bounds plays. All his team's Turn it over too much. His players seem to lack the ability to stop dribble drive. Lack of good sets in half court offense. Predictable game plans. Defensive intensity, help defense when necessary and when not.





Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

[Hoosierfan2017 21,795]

18 minutes ago, OliviaPope40 said:

My mother told me at dinner last night that she thinks Crean is a good recruiter but not a good coach.

I always hear people say that he's a good recruiter, but is he really? He throws out offers like candy, rarely gets his top targets, and gives walk-ons significant minutes..

[AKHoosier 7,033]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Do you believe that Crean is capable of building a team that can win a national championship and then getting them there? If you don't, then what's the point of keeping him here? Go out and find a guy who can. 

Did you really find it necessary to ask that question?  I think it's fairly obvious that I pretty much don't, given the last paragraph in my post.

The thing is though, I don't think Crean is a bad coach.  Most people, some even on this board, want to point to guys like Tony Bennett and Bo Ryan as great coaches who teach solid fundamentals, but they all seem to forget that before Bo's final 2 years, he was always known as a coach who could never perform in the tournament either.  His teams were always getting bounced early by double-digit seeds, and then all of a sudden he's a great coach after he goes to 2 consecutive Final Fours.

Same with Tony Bennett, who seems to under-perform in the tournament pretty regularly.

You and me both can think he's not capable of getting to a Final 4 at IU or winning a national championship, but we don't know that.  The only thing for certain is that we still have 18 games left to be played, and it's possible we could go 14-4 the rest of the way, get a good seed in the NCAA tournament, and end up getting favorable match-ups and getting hot at the right time sending us to a Final 4.

[JSHoosier 20,400]

1 minute ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I always hear people say that he's a good recruiter, but is he really? He throws out offers like candy, rarely gets his top targets, and gives walk-ons significant minutes..

I'd say he's good, but not great.

I'd put walk-ons getting significant minutes on his WTF substitutions, at least partly.

[JSHoosier 20,400]

6 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

That's the layman public perception.

I think Crean is far overrated as a recruiter. I think he is probably slightly underrated by our fanbase as a coach.

I think public perception by our fanbase:
Recruiting 9.5/10
Coaching 2/10

I think reality is closer to:
Recruiting 7.5/10
Coaching 5/10

He has his strengths. Player development, offensive spacing, transition game, teams usually rebound well for their size, getting guys to play hard for him (hard, not smart), recruiting is a strength too, but not nearly as much as many believe.

His weaknesses: bad feel for substitutions, seems to try to follow a pregamed sub plan. Bad out of timeouts, bad with defending and executing in-bounds plays. All his team's Turn it over too much. His players seem to lack the ability to stop dribble drive. Lack of good sets in half court offense. Predictable game plans. Defensive intensity, help defense when necessary and when not.





Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

He's not an incompetent coach by any means.  He's good at many of the aspects of being a coach, the problem is his weaknesses are critical aspects and in 20 years as a coach he hasn't really shown improvement in those.  That makes his ceiling limited.

Many of your weaknesses hit the spot, adding in that he's not good at making in-game adjustments.  The in-game chess match so to speak.

[southernindianahoosier 422]

That's the layman public perception.

I think Crean is far overrated as a recruiter. I think he is probably slightly underrated by our fanbase as a coach.

I think public perception by our fanbase:
Recruiting 9.5/10
Coaching 2/10

I think reality is closer to:
Recruiting 7.5/10
Coaching 5/10

He has his strengths. Player development, offensive spacing, transition game, teams usually rebound well for their size, getting guys to play hard for him (hard, not smart), recruiting is a strength too, but not nearly as much as many believe.

His weaknesses: bad feel for substitutions, seems to try to follow a pregamed sub plan. Bad out of timeouts, bad with defending and executing in-bounds plays. All his team's Turn it over too much. His players seem to lack the ability to stop dribble drive. Lack of good sets in half court offense. Predictable game plans. Defensive intensity, help defense when necessary and when not.





Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

I think you're being generous on his recruiting. Historically he's probably been a 7.5 out of 10, but if you looked at his recruiting as of today, the miss on Wilkes and not being able to recruit any top talent from Indiana since Blackmon, makes me think his recruiting ability is closer to a 4/5 out of 10.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,619]

I think you're being generous on his recruiting. Historically he's probably been a 7.5 out of 10, but if you looked at his recruiting as of today, the miss on Wilkes and not being able to recruit any top talent from Indiana since Blackmon, makes me think his recruiting ability is closer to a 4/5 out of 10.

He's going against 9s and 10s. Calipari, Williams, Self, Alford/UCLA, Miller, Coach K.

I think Izzo is a 8.5

Painter is a 5.

We move the recruiting needle much more than Purdue.







Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[KingPG21 6,587]

57 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

That's the layman public perception.

I think Crean is far overrated as a recruiter. I think he is probably slightly underrated by our fanbase as a coach.

I think public perception by our fanbase:
Recruiting 9.5/10
Coaching 2/10

I think reality is closer to:
Recruiting 7.5/10
Coaching 5/10

He has his strengths. Player development, offensive spacing, transition game, teams usually rebound well for their size, getting guys to play hard for him (hard, not smart), recruiting is a strength too, but not nearly as much as many believe.

His weaknesses: bad feel for substitutions, seems to try to follow a pregamed sub plan. Bad out of timeouts, bad with defending and executing in-bounds plays. All his team's Turn it over too much. His players seem to lack the ability to stop dribble drive. Lack of good sets in half court offense. Predictable game plans. Defensive intensity, help defense when necessary and when not.





Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

I think your comments on recruiting are spot on. A lot of our fans talk real high about his recruiting because he has found gems, Vic, OG, Sheehey (not to the extent of the other guys, but before he was asked to take way too big a role as a senior he was a great find). But I mean...... he takes so many big risks on bigs. And that with his seeming lack of track record with developing bigs, see Cody's lack of significant leap from freshman to sophomore year whereas in the NBA he has made big strides. Or Hanner never learning how to do something as simple as catching the ball and never seeming to know much of anything about defensive positioning. And now Bryant who hasn't made as big a jump from his freshman year that we were hoping for. I guess what I'm trying to say is his player development is a bit overhyped by our fans too, given his lack of pedigree for developing bigs. 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,795]

59 minutes ago, AKHoosier said:

Did you really find it necessary to ask that question?  I think it's fairly obvious that I pretty much don't, given the last paragraph in my post.

The thing is though, I don't think Crean is a bad coach.  Most people, some even on this board, want to point to guys like Tony Bennett and Bo Ryan as great coaches who teach solid fundamentals, but they all seem to forget that before Bo's final 2 years, he was always known as a coach who could never perform in the tournament either.  His teams were always getting bounced early by double-digit seeds, and then all of a sudden he's a great coach after he goes to 2 consecutive Final Fours.

Same with Tony Bennett, who seems to under-perform in the tournament pretty regularly.

You and me both can think he's not capable of getting to a Final 4 at IU or winning a national championship, but we don't know that.  The only thing for certain is that we still have 18 games left to be played, and it's possible we could go 14-4 the rest of the way, get a good seed in the NCAA tournament, and end up getting favorable match-ups and getting hot at the right time sending us to a Final 4.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. If we don't think he can get us to another banner then why keep him around? A national championship should be the goal for IU. If your coach isn't capable of delivering one, then you move on. Maybe there isn't anyone out there who can that we could get, but that doesn't mean we should hold on to a guy who has proven that he can't. You'll never score if you don't shoot.

Sure it's possible that we catch fire at the right time and make a Final 4 run, but nothing in Crean's career makes me think that will ever happen. He's made it past the sweet 16 once in his life, and that was with a top 5 shooting guard of all time in his backcourt. He can't make in game adjustments. If his pre-game game plan isn't working then we're screwed. He doesn't ride the hot hand, his in-game substitutions seem to have very little to do with on court performance. That's not going to get you deep into the tournament.