I'm worried about in-state recruiting.

[MikeRoberts 7,979]

The amount of money this staff spends on recruiting shows how often they are out of state recruiting. It's insane how much more this staff spent recruiting than any other schools in the BigTen and our results are mid pack

[HoosierAloha 30,102]

Didn't pu finish dead last in the conference a few years ago with mostly Indiana and the surrounding states players?  Did those players understand the B1G or nah?

[MikeRoberts 7,979]

Didn't pu finish dead last in the conference a few years ago with mostly Indiana and the surrounding states players? Did those players understand the B1G or nah?

yea, in the worst season in recent history they had one less win in bigten play than IU did last year 8-10 vs 9-9

[HoosierAloha 30,102]

yea, in the worst season in recent history they had one less win in bigten play than IU did last year 8-10 vs 9-9

????

 

They finished dead last in the B1G in 2013-2014 no? 

 

They had a roster filled with players from Indiana or the surrounding area.

T. Johnson - Indianapolis

R. Johnson - Indianapolis

Hammons - Gary

Stephens - Ill

Scott - Ft. Wayne

Davis - Ft. Wayne

Smotherman - Indianapolis

Peck - Indanapolis

Simpson - Chicago

 

That's 9/10 players on pu's roster that year from Indiana or just over the boarder in Illinois.  Why didn't they get the B1G?  After all that's 90% of their main rotation that is from Indiana/Illinois.  They should know the B1G.

 

Now, IU won the B1G in 2012-2013 that didn't understand the B1G because they weren't from the area.

Zeller - Washington

Oladipo - DMV

Watford - Alabama

Hulls - Bloomington

Sheehey - Florida

Yogi - Indianapolis

Abell - Kentucky

 

That's 4/7 players who aren't from Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois but they won an B1G championship without knowing the B1G.  How is that possible?  Heck, throw in Hollowell, that's still only 50% of the main rotation from Indiana.  Just imagine what they could have done if they actually understood the B1G?!

[Josh 13,229]

If you really think Bob Knight's teams were more successful than Tom Crean's because of where the players were born...then you're not paying attention.

[Bobman1 2,913]

????

They finished dead last in the B1G in 2013-2014 no?

They had a roster filled with players from Indiana or the surrounding area.
T. Johnson - Indianapolis
R. Johnson - Indianapolis
Hammons - Gary
Stephens - Ill
Scott - Ft. Wayne
Davis - Ft. Wayne
Smotherman - Indianapolis
Peck - Indanapolis
Simpson - Chicago

That's 9/10 players on pu's roster that year from Indiana or just over the boarder in Illinois. Why didn't they get the B1G? After all that's 90% of their main rotation that is from Indiana/Illinois. They should know the B1G.

Now, IU won the B1G in 2012-2013 that didn't understand the B1G because they weren't from the area.
Zeller - Washington
Oladipo - DMV
Watford - Alabama
Hulls - Bloomington
Sheehey - Florida
Yogi - Indianapolis
Abell - Kentucky

That's 4/7 players who aren't from Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois but they won an B1G championship without knowing the B1G. How is that possible? Heck, throw in Hollowell, that's still only 50% of the main rotation from Indiana. Just imagine what they could have done if they actually understood the B1G?!

Didn't we win the big ten title that year though?

[Stuhoo 88,950]

If you're okay with the results Crean has achieved with the recruiting priorities he's put in place, I don't know what to tell you.  I didn't cite Swanigan.  You did.  

 

Stanford Robinson

Tim Priller

Bawa Muniru

Peter Jurkin

Max Hoetzel

Jeremiah April

Luke Fischer (good player, bad fit)

On and on

 

There's a lot of wasted space on the roster.  Straw man argument?  We're 0-3 against Purdue the last 2 seasons, and we recruited two kids (Hoetzel and Johnson) who said they didn't know or understand the traditions at Indiana before they came here.   Think Purdue has that problem?   They play harder than we do and their kids all understand the Big Ten.  We've finished 8th and 7th in Crean's 6th and 7th seasons.   You don't think the kids we have might be a reason?   Again, you're kidding yourself.  You can call it strawman or anything you want.  I disagree with you and I believe absolutely that in-state and in-area kids should be prioritzed over out of area kids.  For 29 seasons, Bob Knight focused almost exclusively on 3 states.  Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio.   All he did was win 11 Big Ten titles and 3 national championships.  I've seen the point made that it's a new time now and that won't work anymore....talk about an argument with no basis.  History's on my side..as is the list of Indiana kids which have gone elsewhere and succeeded.   That argument is the same to me as the one that says "we didn't want him, anyway" to every kid who picks another school or the one that says because a kid says yes to Indiana, he's the next great thing (Mike White, Muniru, Bracey Wright, Marshall Strickland, etc) whether he can play or not.    Been around too long to just spew this stuff without thinking about it....My opinion is in-area recruiting has suffered because it's not a high enough priority and we're missing great local kids in search of Lord knows what in Maryland or Virginia.  Why??  

 

If not Purdue, what about Butler?  Their team had 9 kids from Indiana or surrounding states plus one from Missouri.  They have 2 more coming next season and Brunk the year after that.  Look at the direction of both programs.   Butler just beat Texas and almost Notre Dame (top 10 team) in the NCAA tournament.   They've been a consistent winner for several years.   Michigan State had 16 kids on their roster last season including walk ons, and 13 of them were from Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois.   One from Wyoming is someone named Colby Wollenman, who never plays.   Tum Tum is from the Bahamas...an anomaly.   There's a reason they (MSU) recruit Indiana heavily every year and a reason they win every year.  WIsconsin recruits almost exclusively in their home area and every kid on that roster knows and buys into their program because they understand it.  Think their winning all the time is a coincidence???   What is it about those two schools (the class of the Big Ten) that makes you think Indiana can do things differently and have the same level of success?   The reality is Indiana cannot.  No way Indiana can keep missing as many local players as they have and win consistently.   As I've said, if you believe they can, you're kidding yourself, and there's a reason Purdue has a very local strategy.  

 

Those of you who argue against the importance of prioritizing local recruiting, on what do you base your argument other than you don't agree.  That's fine, but prioritizing the east coast and taking people (mediocre players) from all over isn't working.   I don't ever want to read that a player arrives at Indiana and doesn't understand where he is.   Just makes it that much harder to win conference games when other kids care more than ours do...and I'm here to tell you unequivocally that Noah Vonleh - from the east coast - didn't care about Indiana one bit.  Lottery pick goes 17-15 and misses the post season.  The chemistry matters. 

 

Geez, GoColts...I mean, Old Friend...if ADD was contagious, I might have caught it from your post.

 

The strawman argument that you made was when you riffed off of your supposition that Purdue and Painter somehow "get it" by caring more about in-state recruiting. The answers that have followed absolutely refute that.

 

You slingshot off of that into..SQUIRREL!!!     

 

Into how our roster has too much dead weight, citing players like Stan, Max H, Bawa, (out of state guys from different Crean squads), Priller (born in Indiana), and Fischer (not dead weight!). Do you think that Purdue, MSU, etc are without dead weight? Have we had any in-state dead weight?

 

Then you get to how Bob Knight had it much more squared away; even though AAU was not a national game back then and guys like Mandeville, Lindemann, and Haris Mujzevinovich (sp) were in the Knight mix too. Uhhmmm, as hard as it is to believe, Coach Knight went out of state on a hit and miss basis too.

 

Just when you get started on Coach Knight...SQUIRREL!!!  

 

Off we go to Butler; after all they beat TEXAS (gasp) last year before losing!  Bo Ryan and Tom Izzo's success, in part determined by how many in-state kids they have? Could it be also because Ryan, Izzo, Knight, and Stevens are a cut above as coaches?...

 

Anyway, just when we are into a discussion of how Bo and Izzo win with in-state we ...SQUIRREL!!!  

 

Start in on how our out of state players are "mediocre" (with a special shout out to east coast prioritization).  Hell, our west coast recruits (Hoetzel, Story and April) kinda sucked, but our east coast guys!!!???!!!

I'm probably missing a couple, but our east coast recruits under Crean have been: Thomas Bryant, Victor Oladipo, Emmitt Holt, Rob Johnson, Jeremiah Rivers, Troy Williams, Noah Vonleh, Will Sheehey, and Stan Robinson. That's a freakin' Tom Crean all-star team! 

 

Our biggest 'problem recruits'? Hollowell (Indiana), Patterson (Indiana), DevDavis (Indiana), Robinson (east), Dumes (Indiana), and Danny Moore (just kidding!!).

 

In summary GC, welcome to board (it's the slow season, and you are hugely welcome as a guy that can stir the pot w/provacative stuff). However, this ain't the Scout board where there's no one to knock down nonsense.  Crean may not be the answer, but at least we should be honest about why; he just might not be a good enough basketball mind.

 

Oh, and ... and SQUIRREL!!! (I can't help, it, it's too much fun to 'squirrel people')

 

 

[Bowhunter 3,123]

I'm scared about the drop off in talent after Yogi, Troy, JBJ, and Bryant leave. We are going to struggle! So I hope we make some noise this year cause 2016 doesn't look good unless we rob some studs in that class.

[cchoneycut 53]

I'm scared about the drop off in talent after Yogi, Troy, JBJ, and Bryant leave. We are going to struggle! So I hope we make some noise this year cause 2016 doesn't look good unless we rob some studs in that class.

That's the thing though... We can totally rob some studs in that class. Build a solid class of '16's and then hand pick our awesome in-state '17 class and we should be set for a bit.

[jdailey1981 155]

If you really think Bob Knight's teams were more successful than Tom Crean's because of where the players were born...then you're not paying attention.

True statement! When CBK coached, kids used to line up all over the country to play for him, because they knew what he could deliver.

[jdailey1981 155]

That's the thing though... We can totally rob some studs in that class. Build a solid class of '16's and then hand pick our awesome in-state '17 class and we should be set for a bit.

That's just it, we need to have a solid foundation set out for new recruits to play on. This season can be huge! Will we win a NC? Doubtful, however, we can win the Big Ten. One more championship, and we will top Purdue with not only national championships, but Big Ten championships. You have to start somewhere though.

[Bccanada19631 9]

If you're okay with the results Crean has achieved with the recruiting priorities he's put in place, I don't know what to tell you.  I didn't cite Swanigan.  You did.  

 

Stanford Robinson

Tim Priller

Bawa Muniru

Peter Jurkin

Max Hoetzel

Jeremiah April

Luke Fischer (good player, bad fit)

On and on

 

There's a lot of wasted space on the roster.  Straw man argument?  We're 0-3 against Purdue the last 2 seasons, and we recruited two kids (Hoetzel and Johnson) who said they didn't know or understand the traditions at Indiana before they came here.   Think Purdue has that problem?   They play harder than we do and their kids all understand the Big Ten.  We've finished 8th and 7th in Crean's 6th and 7th seasons.   You don't think the kids we have might be a reason?   Again, you're kidding yourself.  You can call it strawman or anything you want.  I disagree with you and I believe absolutely that in-state and in-area kids should be prioritzed over out of area kids.  For 29 seasons, Bob Knight focused almost exclusively on 3 states.  Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio.   All he did was win 11 Big Ten titles and 3 national championships.  I've seen the point made that it's a new time now and that won't work anymore....talk about an argument with no basis.  History's on my side..as is the list of Indiana kids which have gone elsewhere and succeeded.   That argument is the same to me as the one that says "we didn't want him, anyway" to every kid who picks another school or the one that says because a kid says yes to Indiana, he's the next great thing (Mike White, Muniru, Bracey Wright, Marshall Strickland, etc) whether he can play or not.    Been around too long to just spew this stuff without thinking about it....My opinion is in-area recruiting has suffered because it's not a high enough priority and we're missing great local kids in search of Lord knows what in Maryland or Virginia.  Why??  

 

If not Purdue, what about Butler?  Their team had 9 kids from Indiana or surrounding states plus one from Missouri.  They have 2 more coming next season and Brunk the year after that.  Look at the direction of both programs.   Butler just beat Texas and almost Notre Dame (top 10 team) in the NCAA tournament.   They've been a consistent winner for several years.   Michigan State had 16 kids on their roster last season including walk ons, and 13 of them were from Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois.   One from Wyoming is someone named Colby Wollenman, who never plays.   Tum Tum is from the Bahamas...an anomaly.   There's a reason they (MSU) recruit Indiana heavily every year and a reason they win every year.  WIsconsin recruits almost exclusively in their home area and every kid on that roster knows and buys into their program because they understand it.  Think their winning all the time is a coincidence???   What is it about those two schools (the class of the Big Ten) that makes you think Indiana can do things differently and have the same level of success?   The reality is Indiana cannot.  No way Indiana can keep missing as many local players as they have and win consistently.   As I've said, if you believe they can, you're kidding yourself, and there's a reason Purdue has a very local strategy.  

 

Those of you who argue against the importance of prioritizing local recruiting, on what do you base your argument other than you don't agree.  That's fine, but prioritizing the east coast and taking people (mediocre players) from all over isn't working.   I don't ever want to read that a player arrives at Indiana and doesn't understand where he is.   Just makes it that much harder to win conference games when other kids care more than ours do...and I'm here to tell you unequivocally that Noah Vonleh - from the east coast - didn't care about Indiana one bit.  Lottery pick goes 17-15 and misses the post season.  The chemistry matters. 

Butler finished 9th in the Big East (with a 4-14 record) two years ago.  Purdue finished last in the B1G two years ago.  Why didn't those Indiana kids help them avoid that fate?  This "there's something in the water in Indiana" argument is stupid and lazy.  Jeremy Hollowell, Austin Etherington, and Ron Patterson are proof positive that not all Indiana players vastly outperform their rankings.

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

yea, in the worst season in recent history they had one less win in bigten play than IU did last year 8-10 vs 9-9

They were 5-12, 2 seasons ago.

[Alford Bailey 13,225]

I'm scared about the drop off in talent after Yogi, Troy, JBJ, and Bryant leave. We are going to struggle! So I hope we make some noise this year cause 2016 doesn't look good unless we rob some studs in that class.

Very well could be looking at a total rebuild.  The "young" excuse will be back in play.

[Old Friend 8,665]

If you really think Bob Knight's teams were more successful than Tom Crean's because of where the players were born...then you're not paying attention.

Because of where they were born?????   Seriously?   That's what you think the point is?    Might want to try a new path.....that's the wrong one.

[Old Friend 8,665]

Geez, GoColts...I mean, Old Friend...if ADD was contagious, I might have caught it from your post.

 

The strawman argument that you made was when you riffed off of your supposition that Purdue and Painter somehow "get it" by caring more about in-state recruiting. The answers that have followed absolutely refute that.

 

You slingshot off of that into..SQUIRREL!!!     

 

Into how our roster has too much dead weight, citing players like Stan, Max H, Bawa, (out of state guys from different Crean squads), Priller (born in Indiana), and Fischer (not dead weight!). Do you think that Purdue, MSU, etc are without dead weight? Have we had any in-state dead weight?

 

Then you get to how Bob Knight had it much more squared away; even though AAU was not a national game back then and guys like Mandeville, Lindemann, and Haris Mujzevinovich (sp) were in the Knight mix too. Uhhmmm, as hard as it is to believe, Coach Knight went out of state on a hit and miss basis too.

 

Just when you get started on Coach Knight...SQUIRREL!!!  

 

Off we go to Butler; after all they beat TEXAS (gasp) last year before losing!  Bo Ryan and Tom Izzo's success, in part determined by how many in-state kids they have? Could it be also because Ryan, Izzo, Knight, and Stevens are a cut above as coaches?...

 

Anyway, just when we are into a discussion of how Bo and Izzo win with in-state we ...SQUIRREL!!!  

 

Start in on how our out of state players are "mediocre" (with a special shout out to east coast prioritization).  Hell, our west coast recruits (Hoetzel, Story and April) kinda sucked, but our east coast guys!!!???!!!

I'm probably missing a couple, but our east coast recruits under Crean have been: Thomas Bryant, Victor Oladipo, Emmitt Holt, Rob Johnson, Jeremiah Rivers, Troy Williams, Noah Vonleh, Will Sheehey, and Stan Robinson. That's a freakin' Tom Crean all-star team! 

 

Our biggest 'problem recruits'? Hollowell (Indiana), Patterson (Indiana), DevDavis (Indiana), Robinson (east), Dumes (Indiana), and Danny Moore (just kidding!!).

 

In summary GC, welcome to board (it's the slow season, and you are hugely welcome as a guy that can stir the pot w/provacative stuff). However, this ain't the Scout board where there's no one to knock down nonsense.  Crean may not be the answer, but at least we should be honest about why; he just might not be a good enough basketball mind.

 

Oh, and ... and SQUIRREL!!! (I can't help, it, it's too much fun to 'squirrel people')

 

 

Cute little animals aside....I am still shaking my head at the guy who thought this was about where kids were born...

 

I don't have any interest in stirring the pot or anything like that.  You don't need to make comments about people knocking things down or not challenging me.  That's the fun part of this...the debate of it.  I do find the squirrel an interesting touch.  

 

I don't need anyone to agree with me, but I will simply ask you and anyone else to look hard at what we have and at the situation.   Look at more than face value of things.   You can cherry pick a couple of years when Butler was rebuilding, but look at their record since Crean came to IU.  Look at the direction of Purdue.  Look at Izzo's heavy and almost exclusive recruiting of the local area (by the way, you seem to pigeon hole what I'm saying into "Indiana."  That's not at all what I've done.  I believe 100% that kids who understand the local conference and local rivalries have a leg up on kids who don't....and Johnson and Hoetzel didn't.   They both said they didn't.   And we finished 7th in the Big Ten.    

 

At the end of the day, I think kids from this area are far better at the "game" of basketball than kids from the east coast..by and large.  The "game" is different than the "sport."  There are plenty of ball-skill and athletic guys from all over.  The best fundamental players in high school (and this is something college coaches talk about all the time) come from right around here - again, by and large.   There are good fundamental players and superstars everywhere, but we're not getting those players.   We're getting Robinson, Priller, April, Muniru, Michele, etc.  Vonleh was a physical beast....but not sound fundamentally, and he was interested only in showcasing himself for the NBA.   No matter where a kid's from, you have to get the right kids.  Hollowell was a lazy, selfish player in high school.  I personally think Patterson would have been pretty solid, but he was a grade issue, not a problem recruit.   Davis had what amounted to half a joint in his room....and was injured playing a joke on friends on Halloween.  I don't necessarily think he was necessarily a "problem recruit."  He screwed up, and had he done so withOUT several other episodes on this team, he'd have had to do some community service, run some stairs, and we'd all love him.  He'd be the story of the year.  His problem was screwing up at the worst possible time....not being a problem recruit.

 

Answer me this.  Regardless of coaches and coaching ability.  I clearly don't think Crean's very good, but I didn't think Davis was very good either, yet he took a team to the Final Four....which happened to be led by some of the top players from this area over the prior couple of years and two Indiana Mr. Basketball's (Coverdale and Jeffries).   You really don't think kids from this area (or the area of any great program) understand the traditions and expectations of those programs?    

 

The list of players you named is impressive, but look a little deeper.

 

Bryant has not had his first practice at Indiana.   He counts for nothing.

Johnson said he didn't understand the traditions were when he got here and so far his best finish is 7th place in the Big Ten and he's 0-2 against Purdue

Vonleh quit on the team and his team finished 8th in the conference and missed the post season.  He was all about Noah Vonleh

Sheehey's one chance to lead a team and be anything more than a role player with great players around him ended with a 7-11 Big Ten record and missed post season

Rivers was bad.  Horrible decisions, couldn't shoot, and couldn't guard.

Holt is a solid role player whose best finish is 7th place in the Big Ten

Williams is terrific.  Love the kid.  Never said all players should be from here. I said we needed to prioritize the local kids, and we're not right now.

Oladipo - same as above.  Love him, too.

Robinson?  Seriously?  He is an awful basketball player at the D1 level.  What other kid can you name who tried to change shooting hands after his freshman season?  He's good enough to play big minutes on an 8th place Big Ten team.

 

Mandeville and Eggers were Dakich recruits.  The whole story there has been well documented, but Knight handed the recruiting keys to Dakich in 1994 or so because Dakich wanted to groom himself for a head job, and Knight went hunting.  He never visited those kids or saw them play.  He accepted Dakich's wishes, and we got what we got.  When Knight re-engaged recruiting-wise, he almost immediately got Fife, Odle, Jeffries, Coverdale, Recker, Haston, and Moye.  Just one of those kids lived further than a 4 hour drive from Bloomington.  Lindeman gets a bad rap...he was no all star, but he was better than many give him credit for,  We'd have sure used him a year ago.   Mujezinovic was a JUCO kid who filled an immediate need for a season or two.   Not a good example of Knight's missing.   

 

What I'm saying is all about the game vs. the sport and what has historically succeeded at Indiana.   AAU has made basketball worse, not better.  Ask any high school or college coach.  But....kids from around here generally understand the game better than kids from other places where basketball isn't taught the same way and isn't in the fiber of the area.  Baseball and football rule the south.  Lacrosse and hockey have taken over the north and east, and then you have soccer which is the devil everywhere in my opinion.   Basketball is still the top game around here, and kids from around here are widely pursued for a reason.  You don't have to agree, and you can post a zoo full of pictures if you'd like.   But ask yourself why it is that New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia, New York, etc. aren't  hot recruiting areas for the teams that win the Big Ten every year, and those same schools DO recruit the midwest heavily?.   Would it be that Crean's  trying to out think the room, like he does all the time?   Can't see the forest through the trees?  Missing what's right in front of his face trying to find that kid everyone else misses on?  All to prove....what?   

[Josh 13,229]

I'm never going to read all that nonsense.  So I'll retry my post to you.  

 

If you really think Bob Knight's teams were more successful than Tom Crean's teams because of where the players were from....you're not paying attention.

 

Better?  Understand now?  But I bet you refuse to.  Same old "friend".

[Stuhoo 88,950]

I guess because I forgot to put "tic" next to MSB's birthplace that is grounds for criticism of all of the counters to extensive rambling.

Oooh...Knight got lazy. there's a solid defense of why he did things the right way and Crean doesn't!

Are you really criticizing Bryant, Rojo, and Sheehey! Holy crap.

Hanner played his high school ball in Indiana. Does he count as an Indiana kid?

[Hovadipo 61,336]

This thread in a (very short...you're welcome) nutshell.......

 

 

 

TL;DR

[JSHoosier 22,204]

I guess because I forgot to put "tic" next to MSB's birthplace that is grounds for criticism of all of the counters to extensive rambling.

Oooh...Knight got lazy. there's a solid defense of why he did things the right way and Crean doesn't!

Are you really criticizing Bryant, Rojo, and Sheehey! Holy crap.

Hanner played his high school ball in Indiana. Does he count as an Indiana kid?

Hanner wasn't in Indiana long (or playing bball long period), he was originally in NC and teammates with Jurkin.