I'm worried about in-state recruiting.

[Old Friend 8,389]

So tell me, GC; make a stand:

 

OG Anunoby is a straight A student, has great athleticism, apparently is a very willing defender, and is a low rated recruit; not just out of the top 100, but out of the top 200 on most services.

He will likely need at least one year to earn any substantial minutes in the rotation.

 

He is also from (shudder) Jefferson City, Missouri.

 

I am glad the staff identified him and convinced him to come on board. Are you on record stating that offering and signing him was a flat out bad decision?

No.  Don't put words in my mouth.   Like I said, you don't understand and have made no effort.  You're too busy convincing yourself that some old character is rearing his manufactured head and is somehow poisoning your precious chat board.   I'm saying we don't have to look all over the country if we want middle tier recruits and there's no reason to leave the area.  And, we have to get the right kids no matter where we recruit from (i.e. Hollowell was a bad fit)  End.   OG may be great.  He may not.   Why do we need to leave the area to find middle-tier recruits who may not understand the culture here?  You don't think we can find kids like him from within 3 hours of Bloomington?    It's about where the focus is.  It's about winning consistently, not trying to out-think the room and taking consistent shots at kids you think everyone else missed on, which Crean has done consistently since he's been here, and he's finished above 5th place exactly once.   I'm not saying anyone is a bad decision and I'm not criticizing kids.   You don't have to create my point for me and then argue against it.   What evidence or history do you have that shows Indiana and Tom Crean will win consistently by recruiting kids from all over the place?   I know the answer, and you do too.  Now....look at the kids from JUST Indiana over the last 5 years, and let me know how you think we'd have done if we kept even 1/3rd of them home.   And yes, I know there are unknowns every season, OG and Morgan this season.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Jeremiah April was from Illinois. He had been playing at a prep school in Arizona when we recruited him.

Right.  We recruited him while he was playing in Arizona.  Same question.  Why?

[bnkepner 1,509]

When contemplating this issue of instate recruiting I always like to think back to when I went and saw Bob Knight speak a few years ago and he said that one of his biggest regrets was not recruiting more nationally. He said he had assistants that wanted him to go to Florida, California, New York, etc and he never did. He said he regrets not doing that and only staying locally for so long.
The reason kids don't understand the tradition of Indiana Basketball? A lot of high school kids now days have only seen a struggling IU program growing up. Im 24 and understand the tradition because my dad is a lifelong fan and I grew up hearing the stories and watching tapes of games, etc. Any random kid (even in Indiana) that grows up without an IU fan as a parent would have no idea of this because all they might know is Coach Knight throwing a chair across the floor, the lack of success by Mike Davis, the shady business of Kelvin Sampson, and the drama that has surrounded Crean's career here. That doesn't sound like success when looked at by up and coming high school kids. Doesn't matter where the kid is from, we haven't had long lasting success in decades so that is what keeps kids away

[Stuhoo 76,049]

You should re-name yourself "kiddie pool."    I'm not thrilled about OG either.  We'll see how he does. I didn't use him and I didn't use Morgan because it's not fair to do that yet, same as it's not fair to use Bryant yet.   Maybe all will be great.  Maybe they won't.   Time will tell; but no matter which way it goes, there's no denying the last 15 years since IU took recruiting focus away from the local area..   This season's success will prove very little, no matter how successful Indiana is.  I still disagree with taking focus away from the area.

 

I'm interested in long term success of the team rather than any one individual player.  You don't understand what I'm saying, or at least haven't applied it; and that's fine.   But you have zero backing to your argument because what Indiana has done is not winning consistently and hasn't for 15 years - and I'm sure you've heard what great recruiters Crean and Davis are/were.   Getting kids to say yes and building consistently good teams are very different things.   Crean can't do that, and I think part of the reason is a shotgun approach to recruiting.   Disagree if you want, Oladipo aside.   Like I said before, Sheehey was not good at all when he had the chance to lead the team.  He was fine as a role player.  Let's not over glorify what he accomplished, because he didn't do much when it was his team.   Holt's best finish is 7th in the Big Ten.   He is also a role player who will benefit from a great group of talent around him this season, but what's he done to prove your point?   He played 11 minutes a game last season, averages 3 points and 2 rebounds, and he's an example of why I'm wrong?   Yeah, he'll do better, but we couldn't find an Emmitt Holt somewhere around here?  3 points and 2 rebounds over 11 minutes is irreplaceable?    Really?

 

Yes...I get it. Sheehey was a "fine role player" who could not carry a team. "Holt's best finish is 7th in the Big Ten" (especially interesting in that you seems to be inferring that Holt, as a freshman who arrived last August, was in any way responsible for last year's finish, be it seventh, first, or 14th).  Do you really think this logic convinces anyone that we should have replaced them with in-state low rated recruits?

 

Finally: You are now stating that if Crean unequivocally succeeds this season it will have very little effect on your opinion?!?

 

While I admire your ability to make your point and stick to it, that, in my opinion, is a huge credibility killer.

[bnkepner 1,509]

Right.  We recruited him while he was playing in Arizona.  Same question.  Why?

So a bunch of people argue that we should only recruit payers from the Midwest. April was a player from the Midwest, just happened to go play prep basketball for a year in Arizona and all of a sudden he isn't from the midwest. This is why this whole idea of "only recruit one area" is flawed.

[Stuhoo 76,049]

Like I said, you don't understand and have made no effort.  

 

You're too busy convincing yourself that some old character is rearing his manufactured head and is somehow poisoning your precious chat board.  

 

IMO...this response is absolutely low class.

________________________________________________________

 

I expressly said that I think you are a welcome poster who prompts evocative off-season discussion. But this comment does make me think of a negative assessment of you personally:

 

Thin-skinned.

[Stuhoo 76,049]

So a bunch of people argue that we should only recruit payers from the Midwest. April was a player from the Midwest, just happened to go play prep basketball for a year in Arizona and all of a sudden he isn't from the midwest. This is why this whole idea of "only recruit one area" is flawed.

 

Yup...tons of contradictions:

 

Luke Fischer is cited as an out-of state miss because he's a bad fit. Hell, he was a great fit, Troy Williams, who GoColts thinks is fantastic, went a long way toward Fischer packing up and going home due to Troy's complete freshman personal immaturity. Fischer from the Midwest. From the land of Bo Ryan! Apparently, Northern Michigan or Eastern Ohio would be fine, but Southern Wisconsin is an example of reaching far out of state. Good basketball IQ.

 

April cited as an out-of state miss. From Illinois, played one year out state. Terrible basketball IQ.

 

Perea not mentioned and is the reverse of April. From far away; played one year of hs and AAU in Indiana. Sub-zero basketball IQ.

 

Priller in the maternity ward in Indiana! (lol).

 

Hollowell? Indiana through and through. The worst basketball IQ imaginable.

 

Holt's "best finish is seventh in the Big Ten" Seems to have fantastic bball instincts.

[CottageGrove 563]

So a bunch of people argue that we should only recruit payers from the Midwest. April was a player from the Midwest, just happened to go play prep basketball for a year in Arizona and all of a sudden he isn't from the midwest. This is why this whole idea of "only recruit one area" is flawed.

I agree. April is as much a west coast kid as Perea is an Indiana kid.

[moyemayhem 1,269]

GC, I usually agree with the points you make in these discussions.  I am with you that all things being equal, I would prefer a kid from Indiana over a kid from Maryland.  However, I have to agree with the others that our team's biggest issue isn't the geographic location of our recruits.  It has far more to do with Crean's insistence on a single style of play in spite of the roster, his inability to teach fundamental defensive concepts, his inability to develop big men, his inability to recruit depth on the front line, his inability to make effective in game adjustments, and quite frankly the fact that he's a below average recruiter for a program of our stature.  Crean isn't a good coach and he's not recruiting good enough players to overcome his deficiencies.  Even if he had recruited more players of comparable ability from Indiana and the surrounding states, we would still be getting disappointing results, and it's primarily because Crean is too inflexible to coach to the strengths on his roster, which means he will rarely find success with middling talent.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Yup...tons of contradictions:

 

Luke Fischer is cited as an out-of state miss because he's a bad fit. Hell, he was a great fit, Troy Williams, who GoColts thinks is fantastic, went a long way toward Fischer packing up and going home due to Troy's complete freshman personal immaturity. Fischer from the Midwest. From the land of Bo Ryan! Apparently, Northern Michigan or Eastern Ohio would be fine, but Southern Wisconsin is an example of reaching far out of state. Good basketball IQ.

 

April cited as an out-of state miss. From Illinois, played one year out state. Terrible basketball IQ.

 

Perea not mentioned and is the reverse of April. From far away; played one year of hs and AAU in Indiana. Sub-zero basketball IQ.

 

Priller in the maternity ward in Indiana! (lol).

 

Hollowell? Indiana through and through. The worst basketball IQ imaginable.

 

Holt's "best finish is seventh in the Big Ten" Seems to have fantastic bball instincts.

Okay, boys.   I'm not here to fight, make personal attacks, or anything of the sort.  But be fair.  At the very least, be fair.

 

I said consistently that we need the right kids no matter where they're from.  Hollowell is far from "Indiana through and through."    You know what Indiana players look like, and he was anything but.   This is the lazy thing.   He is "from" Indiana, but doesn't display and never displayed the characteristics of a successful college player because he was a lazy, selfish high school player and I said so (verbatim) when we recruited him.   I never used Hanner as an example because he never had any baskeball IQ and I said he'd be a bust when we recruited him because he doesn't have the instinct, footwork, or experience needed to succeed in the Big Ten.   And I got crushed for it because many chirped about his athletic ability.   

 

If I can't use Holt as an example, neither can you.  It's a two way street, or it's off limits.  You can't cherry pick.  You use Holt as an example of why Indiana should continue to focus nationally, and I'll tell you Holt's best finish is 7th place.  He's either on the table or he's not.    

 

April was not a good fit....no matter where he was from and I have no idea why we recruited him.  Same with Priller.

 

You've mentioned basketball IQ a few times.   Where do you think Indiana has the best chance of finding kids with high basketball IQ?

 

And Kepner, nobody has ever said we should only recruit the local area.   Again, don't put words in my mouth.   There is a huge difference between a recruiting focus/priority and a limiting factor like "only."   Like I said, be fair and avoid the personal crap.  That's all I'm asking.

[Stuhoo 76,049]

GC, I usually agree with the points you make in these discussions.  I am with you that all things being equal, I would prefer a kid from Indiana over a kid from Maryland.  However, I have to agree with the others that our team's biggest issue isn't the geographic location of our recruits.  It has far more to do with Crean's insistence on a single style of play in spite of the roster, his inability to teach fundamental defensive concepts, his inability to develop big men, his inability to recruit depth on the front line, his inability to ever make an in game adjustment, and quite frankly the fact that he's a below average recruiter for a program of our stature.  Crean isn't a good coach and he's not recruiting good enough players to overcome his deficiencies.  Even if he had recruited comparable players from Indiana, we would still be getting disappointing results, and it's primarily because Crean is too inflexible to coach to the strengths on his roster, which means he will rarely find success with middling talent.

 

^^And there you have it! ^^

 

A succinctly stated summary of the downside of Tom Crean as IU's basketball coach. In my opinion, if one thinks Crean is a lost cause...this is all that needs to be said.

[Old Friend 8,389]

GC, I usually agree with the points you make in these discussions.  I am with you that all things being equal, I would prefer a kid from Indiana over a kid from Maryland.  However, I have to agree with the others that our team's biggest issue isn't the geographic location of our recruits.  It has far more to do with Crean's insistence on a single style of play in spite of the roster, his inability to teach fundamental defensive concepts, his inability to develop big men, his inability to recruit depth on the front line, his inability to ever make an in game adjustment, and quite frankly the fact that he's a below average recruiter for a program of our stature.  Crean isn't a good coach and he's not recruiting good enough players to overcome his deficiencies.  Even if he had recruited comparable players from Indiana, we would still be getting disappointing results, and it's primarily because Crean is too inflexible to coach to the strengths on his roster, which means he will rarely find success with middling talent.

Five years ago, I posted frequently that Crean was not a very good coach and not the right fit at Indiana.   You probably remember the results.  Now?  Everyone seems to agree with me.   Similar episodes happened with Davis when he was here.  With Bawa Muniru.  With Peter Jurkin (I said he was too raw and too inexperienced to succeed at Indiana, and got raked over the coals by the crimson guard who seem to think every kid who says yes and wears our uniform will magically be great).   Same with Guy-Marc-Michele.   Same with Mike White (people named him "Kong" and said he was going to be a beast in the post.  I said "not at 6'5", and there were plenty of vitriolic comments)  I said Hollowell was a bad fit because he was a lazy high school player, and I watched him a couple dozen times.  I got raked for that, too.   So I'll stick to my guns, which are something different than simply where a kid is from.

 

I am steadfastly against the lack of focus on the area.  I am not saying every kid needs to be from here or that we shouldn't get great players from elsewhere.  I AM saying I don't see a priority or focus on the area right now, and instead see a focus on the northeast and on kids who have ball skills and little else.  That style and that kind of player has not and will not succeed consistently in the Big Ten unless we get top tier kids across the board, which we're not doing at the moment. Crean does not need to leave the 5-hour circle to get kids who have high basketball IQ, who can play within his system, and who can win consistently.   Yet he does.   And we have a miserable conference record, minus the Zeller years.  We suck against Purdue.  We suck against Northwestern.   And we don't win consistently.  Yes, coaching is a problem.   I absolutely agree with that and may have been the first to point it out.  I wonder what took everyone so long.   But.....as the 2002 team showed, if you have kids with high basketball IQ leading your team, you can win despite your coach, and you can make a coach look great.  So what Crean's doing is assinine.  He's focusing outside the midwest, AND he's recruiting many of the wrong kids.  It's going to fail, and it has failed.  I'm not sure why there's a debate.

[Josh 12,381]

If you don't understand why this is important, I can't help you.  You're blind and deaf if you don't think there's a reason many top coaches recruit Indiana and the surrounding states heavily.   Your little emoticon is cute.  You're still lazy.

 

I appreciate the insults.  You still don't understand how your false stereotypes hurt your credibility and your understanding of the game.

[Naturalhoosier 15,361]

I appreciate the insults.

You dished some too so don't play innocent, even if they were more passive-aggressive then others.

But your emojis are cute!!! :)

[moyemayhem 1,269]

Five years ago, I posted frequently that Crean was not a very good coach and not the right fit at Indiana.   You probably remember the results.  Now?  Everyone seems to agree with me...  

 

Crean does not need to leave the 5-hour circle to get kids who have high basketball IQ, who can play within his system, and who can win consistently.

 

I was right there with you, voicing my concerns about his coaching style 5 years ago.  Who knows, maybe someone can dig it up in the Scout archive.

 

That second quote is where I completely disagree with you.  His system needs very specific types of talent to be successful.  He won't be able to find that talent in a 5-hour radius, and I doubt that he is a good enough recruiter to ever assemble the talent required (regardless of geography) to make his system consistently successful.

[Old Friend 8,389]

I was right there with you, voicing my concerns about his coaching style 5 years ago.  Who knows, maybe someone can dig it up in the Scout archive.

 

That second quote is where I completely disagree with you.  His system needs very specific types of talent to be successful.  He won't be able to find that talent in a 5-hour radius, and I doubt that he is a good enough recruiter to ever assemble the talent required (regardless of geography) to make his system consistently successful.

 

I appreciate the insults.  You still don't understand how your false stereotypes hurt your credibility and your understanding of the game.

Happy to talk basketball with you any time.   What false stereotypes?   You've been on the offensive plenty.  Dish it out, you have to be able to take it.   You sure have yourself on a pedestal believing you understand and others don't because they see things differently.  I'm not worried one bit about credibility with you.   I'm not here to convince you of what I know.  I've told you what I think and what I believe.  And I've given you plenty of evidence to support it.  

[Old Friend 8,389]

I was right there with you, voicing my concerns about his coaching style 5 years ago.  Who knows, maybe someone can dig it up in the Scout archive.

 

That second quote is where I completely disagree with you.  His system needs very specific types of talent to be successful.  He won't be able to find that talent in a 5-hour radius, and I doubt that he is a good enough recruiter to ever assemble the talent required (regardless of geography) to make his system consistently successful.

I think there are plenty of players every year in Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan.  His style isn't that different and it's not unique.  In fact, it's pretty pedestrian.  I believe there are 30 players in those 4 states every year who could succeed just fine at Indiana and who would understand the Big Ten and why it's important to win it.  Who would think of Indiana as something other than "just another school."

[Josh 12,381]

It's not that I understand and others don't.   Just you.  

 

You think there's magic fairy dust on local kids that isn't found elsewhere.  I think that's a cute theory but very short sighted.

 

...and you haven't shown a shred of evidence.  For every Stan Robinson example you think proves your theory, I can give you a Derrick Elston.  

 

The reason Bob Knight's teams were more successful isn't because of where his kids were from.  That's just silly.

[Josh 12,381]

You dished some too so don't play innocent, even if they were more passive-aggressive then others.

But your emojis are cute!!! :)

:onthequiet:

[GloryDays 5,898]

GC, I usually agree with the points you make in these discussions.  I am with you that all things being equal, I would prefer a kid from Indiana over a kid from Maryland.  However, I have to agree with the others that our team's biggest issue isn't the geographic location of our recruits.  It has far more to do with Crean's insistence on a single style of play in spite of the roster, his inability to teach fundamental defensive concepts, his inability to develop big men, his inability to recruit depth on the front line, his inability to make effective in game adjustments, and quite frankly the fact that he's a below average recruiter for a program of our stature.  Crean isn't a good coach and he's not recruiting good enough players to overcome his deficiencies.  Even if he had recruited more players of comparable ability from Indiana and the surrounding states, we would still be getting disappointing results, and it's primarily because Crean is too inflexible to coach to the strengths on his roster, which means he will rarely find success with middling talent.

  Probably the most accurate post in this thread.I hope CTC can change his routine but after 20 years there's not much proof he will.

 His strength is recruiting but even that area lacks focus and often times doesn't reflect roster needs.

  I agree with Old Friends assessment of the approach as shotgun , but think the importance of locality may be overstated a bit.

The 2016 class in Indiana is really not that strong so recruiting on a national level is needed.2017 is a totally different story.