College Bball Thread

[Stuhoo 81,600]

23 minutes ago, OliviaPope40 said:

Giving his hair it’s proper due won you over, eh?

:)

[lillurk 3,768]

3 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

IU's starting shooting guard is Trey Galloway. I betcha he's not in that top 100.

Compared to FLoyer, Trey Galloway:

• Has a better handle
• Shoots from outside far better
• Shoots 2pt fgs far better
• Has a better assist/turnover ratio
• Is 1,000,000% tougher
• Defends 1,000,000% better
• AND, (most importantly) has way better hair.

And even if Loyer improves, Trey Galloway is very likely to again be better than Loyer this coming year in every one of those aspects.

Yeah lots of previews suggest Loyer’s likely to improve but I don’t know how much? I think the endgame is he’s a more reliable shooter from 3 than he was last year but doesn’t offer lots of shot creation, ball-handling, defense.

Smith has Drew Neitzel upside, Loyer’s best case is like…Nick Zeisloft? Who was awesome, but probably not a top 100 player in CBB.

Anyway, between Loyer and Galloway, the guy I’d pick is already on the team I root for.

[Tasmanian Devil 1,628]

2 hours ago, Scotty R said:

1984 UNC team

The team that beat them was better. 

[str8baller 5,471]

11 hours ago, lillurk said:

Yeah lots of previews suggest Loyer’s likely to improve but I don’t know how much? I think the endgame is he’s a more reliable shooter from 3 than he was last year but doesn’t offer lots of shot creation, ball-handling, defense.

Smith has Drew Neitzel upside, Loyer’s best case is like…Nick Zeisloft? Who was awesome, but probably not a top 100 player in CBB.

Anyway, between Loyer and Galloway, the guy I’d pick is already on the team I root for.

That’s probably selling Loyer short. I’d say his upside is probably more like a bigger Jordy Hulls. Deadly knock-down shooter, especially with defenses collapsing on Edey this year, serviceable secondary ballhandler, and a below average defender.  
 

I have no idea if that gets him top 100. I would guess not. 

[Stuhoo 81,600]

25 minutes ago, str8baller said:

That’s probably selling Loyer short. I’d say his upside is probably more like a bigger Jordy Hulls. Deadly knock-down shooter, especially with defenses collapsing on Edey this year, serviceable secondary ballhandler, and a below average defender.  
 

I have no idea if that gets him top 100. I would guess not. 

Except the empirical evidence shows a very different story;

• Jordy Hulls shot 42% fg and 40% 3pt his freshman year, and that was without Cody Zeller freeing up the perimeter. Also without Watford or Oladipo as a three point threat.
• Jordy Hulls shot  48% fg and 41% 3pt his sophomore year, still with Tom Pritchard as the starting post and Oladipo still not making threes.
• Jordy Hulls shot 48% fg and 46% 3pt once he had a big that drew double teams.

Whereas,

• Fletcher Loyer shot 36.7% fg and 32.6% 3 pt. That is in no way a deadly knockdown shooter by any stretch, and that's far worse than Jordy Hulls ever dreamed (nightmare-d?).

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,713]

35 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Except the empirical evidence shows a very different story;

• Jordy Hulls shot 42% fg and 40% 3pt his freshman year, and that was without Cody Zeller freeing up the perimeter. Also without Watford or Oladipo as a three point threat.
• Jordy Hulls shot  48% fg and 41% 3pt his sophomore year, still with Tom Pritchard as the starting post and Oladipo still not making threes.
• Jordy Hulls shot 48% fg and 46% 3pt once he had a big that drew double teams.

Whereas,

• Fletcher Loyer shot 36.7% fg and 32.6% 3 pt. That is in no way a deadly knockdown shooter by any stretch, and that's far worse than Jordy Hulls ever dreamed (nightmare-d?).

You know who else shot low 30s from 3 their freshman year? Luke Kennard. Doesnt mean Loyer is going t obecome that, but he can absolutely improve.

[Stuhoo 81,600]

24 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

You know who else shot low 30s from 3 their freshman year? Luke Kennard. Doesnt mean Loyer is going t obecome that, but he can absolutely improve.

Loyer is surely going to improve because 36.7% fg is absolutely horrible.

You heard of the "Mendoza Line" in baseball? Fletcher Loyer was below the "Phinisee Line" shooting the basketball last year.

Just checking -- you also thought that Rob Phinisee could have been the next Luke Kennard? Because Phin shot better than Loyer at this point.

He has nowhere to go but up.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,713]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

Loyer is surely going to improve because 36.7% fg is absolutely horrible.

You heard of the "Mendoza Line" in baseball? Fletcher Loyer was below the "Phinisee Line" shooting the basketball last year.

Just checking -- you also thought that Rob Phinisee could have been the next Luke Kennard? Because Phin shot better than Loyer at this point.

He has nowhere to go but up.

Loyer actually shot better as a freshman than Phin. And we all felt he was going to be good. And he probably would have been if it weren't for all the injuries.

Loyer: 36.7% FG, 41.4% 2pt, 32.6% 3pt

Phin: 36.1% FG, 39.5% 2pt, 31% 3pt

 

As for your Galloway comparison... Galloway is definitely a better defender. But, Galloway and Loyer each had basically a 2:1 Assist to TO ratio. Galloway average 2.1 assist and 0.8 TO and Loyer averaged 2.4 assists and 1.2 TO.

At some point, gotta take them crimson and cream glasses off.

As for Galloway, he joins everyone else on the team in the fact he has a lot to prove this season. Every player on this team has a lot to prove this season and hopefully that puts a chip on their shoulders. Maybe they are reading this Top 100 for motivation.

[Stuhoo 81,600]

2 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Loyer actually shot better as a freshman than Phin. And we all felt he was going to be good. And he probably would have been if it weren't for all the injuries.

Loyer: 36.7% FG, 41.4% 2pt, 32.6% 3pt

Phin: 36.1% FG, 39.5% 2pt, 31% 3pt

 

As for your Galloway comparison... Galloway is definitely a better defender. But, Galloway and Loyer each had basically a 2:1 Assist to TO ratio. Galloway average 2.1 assist and 0.8 TO and Loyer averaged 2.4 assists and 1.2 TO.

At some point, gotta take them crimson and cream glasses off.

As for Galloway, he joins everyone else on the team in the fact he has a lot to prove this season. Every player on this team has a lot to prove this season and hopefully that puts a chip on their shoulders. Maybe they are reading this Top 100 for motivation.

Lol... I said that Gallo had a better assist to TO ratio. That is flat out true. Gallo's was 2.6 assists to 1 turnover and Loyer was exactly 2 to 1. So Gallo was about 28% better!

Now, true; Loyer was BARELY above what Phinisee shot as a freshman - six -tenths of a percent better. and below the Phinisee/Mendoza line for Phinisee's career shooting percentage numbers. In other words, he was a flat-out terrible shooter last year. I can't believe you're defending the shooting prowess of a bad defense shooting guard who was 36.7% from the floor!

Hey - maybe he improves a ton - he's bound to improve some because if he doesn't Painter isn't keeping him on the floor for defense.

 

[Maedhros 627]

43 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Loyer actually shot better as a freshman than Phin. And we all felt he was going to be good. And he probably would have been if it weren't for all the injuries.

Loyer: 36.7% FG, 41.4% 2pt, 32.6% 3pt

Phin: 36.1% FG, 39.5% 2pt, 31% 3pt

We thought Phinisee was going to be good because of what he did before a concussion derailed his season, and ultimately his career. In those first twelve games, Rob shot over 44% from both 2 and 3. After the concussion, through the rest of that year, those numbers dropped to 32% and 24% respectively. That's how you end up will the full season stats you quoted.

Fletcher Loyer was healthy all year, and played with the gravitiational force of the NPOY.

[Tasmanian Devil 1,628]

4 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

Except the empirical evidence shows a very different story;

• Jordy Hulls shot 42% fg and 40% 3pt his freshman year, and that was without Cody Zeller freeing up the perimeter. Also without Watford or Oladipo as a three point threat.
• Jordy Hulls shot  48% fg and 41% 3pt his sophomore year, still with Tom Pritchard as the starting post and Oladipo still not making threes.
• Jordy Hulls shot 48% fg and 46% 3pt once he had a big that drew double teams.

Whereas,

• Fletcher Loyer shot 36.7% fg and 32.6% 3 pt. That is in no way a deadly knockdown shooter by any stretch, and that's far worse than Jordy Hulls ever dreamed (nightmare-d?).

Painter has a good system that enables him to hide deficiencies. But overall Loyer will need to improve substantially to get to Jordy level.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,713]

54 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Lol... I said that Gallo had a better assist to TO ratio. That is flat out true. Gallo's was 2.6 assists to 1 turnover and Loyer was exactly 2 to 1. So Gallo was about 28% better!

Now, true; Loyer was BARELY above what Phinisee shot as a freshman - six -tenths of a percent better. and below the Phinisee/Mendoza line for Phinisee's career shooting percentage numbers. In other words, he was a flat-out terrible shooter last year. I can't believe you're defending the shooting prowess of a bad defense shooting guard who was 36.7% from the floor!

Hey - maybe he improves a ton - he's bound to improve some because if he doesn't Painter isn't keeping him on the floor for defense.

 

You missed your stats somewhere. Galloway only averaged 2.1 assists this past season and 0.8 turnovers. Loyer averaged 2.4 assists this past season and 1.2 turnovers. Galloway did about double him up on rebounds through 3 to 1.7.

[Stuhoo 81,600]

2 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

You missed your stats somewhere. Galloway only averaged 2.1 assists this past season and 0.8 turnovers. Loyer averaged 2.4 assists this past season and 1.2 turnovers. Galloway did about double him up on rebounds through 3 to 1.7.

I’m no MIT scholar, but 2.1 to 0.8 is over 2 1/2 to 1. In fact it’s a little over 2.6/1.

And Loyer was exactly 2/1

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,713]

11 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I’m no MIT scholar, but 2.1 to 0.8 is over 2 1/2 to 1. In fact it’s a little over 2.6/1.

And Loyer was exactly 2/1

Theirs are basically the exact same. Trey averaged 1.3 more assist than turnovers. Loyer averaged 1.2. Loyer actually has a higher assist% and lower turnover% than Galloway as well.

[RaceToTheTop 26,219]

6 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Theirs are basically the exact same. Trey averaged 1.3 more assist than turnovers. Loyer averaged 1.2. Loyer actually has a higher assist% and lower turnover% than Galloway as well.

Galloway:  1 assist every 13.2 minutes, 1 turnover every 34.6 minutes.

Loyer:  1 assist every 12 minutes, 1 turnover every 24.1 minutes.

So Loyer had more assists/minute.  Not sure where you are getting that Loyer had a 'lower turnover %'.

 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,713]

38 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

Galloway:  1 assist every 13.2 minutes, 1 turnover every 34.6 minutes.

Loyer:  1 assist every 12 minutes, 1 turnover every 24.1 minutes.

So Loyer had more assists/minute.  Not sure where you are getting that Loyer had a 'lower turnover %'.

 

You literally just have to look up his stats.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/fletcher-loyer-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/trey-galloway-1.html

Go to advanced stats. It's right there.

[Tasmanian Devil 1,628]

7 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Theirs are basically the exact same. Trey averaged 1.3 more assist than turnovers. Loyer averaged 1.2. Loyer actually has a higher assist% and lower turnover% than Galloway as well.

And had the benefit of a more complete team around him. Classic example of the Steve Alford rule.

What’s that, you say? ‘87 title game Keith Smart dominated the second half, scoring 17 of his 21 points and hitting the winner from the baseline corner. Expectations were high that Smart would dominate for the Hoosiers the next season - but Smart and Indiana struggled throughout 1987-88.

Why? Go back and look at the championship: Alford drawing the Syracuse defense to him created the lanes which Smart was able to exploit. Take Alford away, and Smart’s effectiveness dropped exponentially.

That’s essentially what everyone is trying to tell you about Loyer. Not a bad player at all, but one that is heavily reliant on the presence of Edey to have an impact. In no way is he a top 100 player.

[str8baller 5,471]

13 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

Except the empirical evidence shows a very different story;

• Jordy Hulls shot 42% fg and 40% 3pt his freshman year, and that was without Cody Zeller freeing up the perimeter. Also without Watford or Oladipo as a three point threat.
• Jordy Hulls shot  48% fg and 41% 3pt his sophomore year, still with Tom Pritchard as the starting post and Oladipo still not making threes.
• Jordy Hulls shot 48% fg and 46% 3pt once he had a big that drew double teams.

Whereas,

• Fletcher Loyer shot 36.7% fg and 32.6% 3 pt. That is in no way a deadly knockdown shooter by any stretch, and that's far worse than Jordy Hulls ever dreamed (nightmare-d?).

I wrote that was probably his ceiling. I’m not sure what “empirical evidence “ there is for that. Loyer also shot more and played for a better team. Loyer and Hulls shot about the same from the FT line.  I suspect there’s some natural shooting ability he can grow into. 
 

I doubt he becomes he the shooter Hulls was but if you’re projecting him into the top 100, you’d probably envision him being a bigger Hulls type player. 

[Stuhoo 81,600]

Here's a little more on the progression of Fletcher Loyer:

Purdue just completed a four game European tour against what amounted to high school level teams. Without Edey they won their games by an average of 31 points, so there were open shots galore.

• The team shot 49.5% from the floor during those four games. 
• Loyer shot 23% from the floor.
•  
• The team shot 36.4% from 3pt during those four games. 
• Loyer shot 31.8% from 3 pt.
•  

• The team shot 56.7% on two point shots
• Loyer was 1-13 (about 8%) on 2 point shots.

It is a distinct possibility that Fletcher Loyer is more of a shot taker than a shot maker. 

[Tasmanian Devil 1,628]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

Here's a little more on the progression of Fletcher Loyer:

Purdue just completed a four game European tour against what amounted to high school level teams. Without Edey they won their games by an average of 31 points, so there were open shots galore.

• The team shot 49.5% from the floor during those four games. 
• Loyer shot 23% from the floor.
•  
• The team shot 36.4% from 3pt during those four games. 
• Loyer shot 31.8% from 3 pt.
•  

• The team shot 56.7% on two point shots
• Loyer was 1-13 (about 8%) on 2 point shots.

It is a distinct possibility that Fletcher Loyer is more of a shot taker than a shot maker. 

He shot 31% from the arc but 23% from the floor?

How many top 100 guys you know that miss enough layups to drop your shooting percentage 8 points?