IUBB vs Auburn (Atlanta, GA) | 12/9/2023 @ 2:00pm on ESPN2

[JSHoosier 21,004]

4 minutes ago, IU_FanClub said:

Leal clearly was not capable of producing in any way on Saturday, however I do think he can be useful in Big Ten play this year. Us getting destroyed on Saturday has clouded a lot of judgement. There is not a team in the Big Ten that can come even close to the ball pressure we saw on Saturday and I think Leal's ability to move the ball against much less athletic teams could be valuable in spurts. This is not a good Big Ten this year we may not have shown as much as we want so far but there is a really good opportunity to stack conference wins in what is a down year/bridge year for us. The 2024 class and portal have to be much better though I think anyone with eyes can agree on that.

To be fair, pretty much our entire backcourt sucked out loud Saturday. Cupps was the only one to score in double figures.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,897]

2 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

What if I agree that all of your positives (as quoted from your post) about Leal are true?

• understands the game
• doesn't need the ball
• makes quick reads
• passes and moves the ball
• knows the system

But they are overtaken by the negatives:

• Lousy handle, especially for a guard
• Terrible shooter who won't shoot, even when open
• Lacking lateral quickness and speed
• Lacking straight line quickness and speed
• No jumping ability
• No playmaking ability
• Never disrupts opponents defensively

So there you have it; a great kid and teammate, and a fail-safe player that in the right circumstances won't screw things up when others might, but not a winning P5 player and with little potential to be one..

Leal doesn't need to have a great handle. He just needs to be in the right spots and have enough handles to keep the ball and take a few dribbles. He doesn't have a worse handle than Gunn. Only thing Gunn has on Leal is athleticism. But that athleticism is basically useless because of Gunns inability to just play basketball.

[Stuhoo 83,695]

4 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Leal doesn't need to have a great handle. He just needs to be in the right spots and have enough handles to keep the ball and take a few dribbles. He doesn't have a worse handle than Gunn. Only thing Gunn has on Leal is athleticism. But that athleticism is basically useless because of Gunns inability to just play basketball.

But you didn't do a side-by side comparison with Gunn.

You said about Leal (and I quote), "Like we've been begging for dudes like Leal. To just have one. Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Virginia etc always have a guy like it and we want one."

My response to that is that Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Virginia have not been "begging" for a senior guard with no handle, a bad and timid shooter, sub-standard athleticism, and who cannot make an impact play on either end of the court.

So I guess my question for you is; which guys have been on those teams that you believe have performed so well with similar attributes? Do you really think that Anthony Leal could be Ty Jerome, Kyle Guy, Bryn Forbes, Ryne Cline, Brad Davison, etc in the right situation? 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,897]

17 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

But you didn't do a side-by side comparison with Gunn.

You said about Leal (and I quote), "Like we've been begging for dudes like Leal. To just have one. Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Virginia etc always have a guy like it and we want one."

My response to that is that Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Virginia have not been "begging" for a senior guard with no handle, a bad and timid shooter, sub-standard athleticism, and who cannot make an impact play on either end of the court.

So I guess my question for you is; which guys have been on those teams that you believe have performed so well with similar attributes? Do you really think that Anthony Leal could be Ty Jerome, Kyle Guy, Bryn Forbes, Ryne Cline, Brad Davison, etc in the right situation? 

They don't have to beg for guys who can just play and know basketball. Because they have had them. We have had a guy like Gunn. It didn't work. He's at Maryland now. He's at Western Kentucky now. He's at Missouri now.

[JSHoosier 21,004]

Speaking of Missouri, Bates is shooting 43% from 3 this year but only 2 attempts per game.

[Stuhoo 83,695]

43 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

They don't have to beg for guys who can just play and know basketball. Because they have had them. We have had a guy like Gunn. It didn't work. He's at Maryland now. He's at Western Kentucky now. He's at Missouri now.

I'll repeat my question for you, because I'm not talking about Gunn, who we agree is athletic but has been wildly inconsistent and often just plain lousy.

Based on you saying, "Like we've been begging for dudes like Leal. To just have one. Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Virginia etc always have a guy like it and we want one" 

I asked you, "which guys have been on those teams (Purdue, MSU, Wisc, UVA) that you believe have performed so well with similar attributes? Do you really think that Anthony Leal could be Ty Jerome, Kyle Guy, Bryn Forbes, Ryne Cline, Brad Davison, etc in the right situation?" 

[Chris007 49,308]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

But you didn't do a side-by side comparison with Gunn.

You said about Leal (and I quote), "Like we've been begging for dudes like Leal. To just have one. Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Virginia etc always have a guy like it and we want one."

My response to that is that Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Virginia have not been "begging" for a senior guard with no handle, a bad and timid shooter, sub-standard athleticism, and who cannot make an impact play on either end of the court.

So I guess my question for you is; which guys have been on those teams that you believe have performed so well with similar attributes? Do you really think that Anthony Leal could be Ty Jerome, Kyle Guy, Bryn Forbes, Ryne Cline, Brad Davison, etc in the right situation? 

I think we all saw on Saturday that any team with any athleticism is going to destroy Leal. He just can't guard many players. His foot speed is just too slow. The straight-line drives get him every time. 

[Stuhoo 83,695]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

I think we all saw on Saturday that any team with any athleticism is going to destroy Leal. He just can't guard many players. His foot speed is just too slow. The straight-line drives get him every time. 

Waiting for LCS to support his take that successful programs get results out of guys like Leal, and to cite examples.

It may be a long wait.

[Chris007 49,308]

1 minute ago, Stuhoo said:

Waiting for LCS to support his take that successful programs get results out of guys like Leal, and to cite examples.

It may be a long wait.

Lean might be a dad by the time he comes up with an example

[Stuhoo 83,695]

7 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Lean might be a dad by the time he comes up with an example

When I asked for real live examples of the guys at PU, MSU, Wisc, and UVA who are like Leal that we are "begging for," his answer of "Gunn sux" did not seem especially on point, riiiiight?     ;)

[realTomCrean 1,724]

Okay don't start or give meaningful minutes to Leal, so we need to get a scorer - perhaps Grant Geleon?

[Josh 12,783]

Ya know, this really bugs me.  These bobbleheads don't really resemble Coach.  The clothes yes, the face no.  

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,897]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

Waiting for LCS to support his take that successful programs get results out of guys like Leal, and to cite examples.

It may be a long wait.

Every title team has a dude that doesn't stuff the stat sheet but is a great glue guy. All great teams do. But CJ Gunn? Plenty of those too. We've had them. Great athletes who couldn't perform. Guys like Hanner and Geronimo. Hell if Ethan Morton can have a role on arguably the best team in the nation the last 2 seasons, I think Leal could on a team who is on a path to miss the NCAA tourney.

[Hoosier DaDa 3,201]

On 12/10/2023 at 7:38 AM, Uspshoosier said:

Woody saying he has to sub the way he does because he can’t play them 40 minutes is a choice as well.   This isn’t the NBA where they have to play back to backs and 3 out of 5 days or 4 in 7 days.  You play 2 games spread out through the week.   He needs to ask his buddy  Self next week how he played Harris 40 min against Missouri. 
 

Kansas starters minutes vs Missouri 

Harris-40

Adams-37

Dickinson-35

McCullar-39

Jackson(freshman)-26

no bench player played more then 8 minutes 

 

Edey played 37 mins for Purdue.  7’4 300 pound center played 37 min and lived 

Not to mentioned TJD minutes was in the 30s all year. 

[IUFAN1976 4,131]

I think you have to have a bench but it doesn’t have to be 10 deep, especially if you don’t have the personal to be 10 deep. Also, his 1st unit and 2nd unit substitution pattern has to go.  He just needs to filter in 2 or 3 guys with the starters and Reneau or Ware needs to be on the floor and Trey Galloway has to stay on the floor for 38 + minutes because we have no guard depth until X returns, then at least one of them has to stay on the floor.

The bench guys I would play now is:

Walker, Banks, and Gunn (but only for short stints) and that is it!  Then once X returns, Cupps returns to Gunns role and Gunn rides the pine and only plays out of necessity if their is another injury or both Trey and X are in serious foul trouble.  Also, Sparks on see the floor too if Ware and Reneau both are in serious foul trouble 

[OliviaPope40 6,812]

So Saturday's game?

[realTomCrean 1,724]

[IU_FanClub 1,739]

21 minutes ago, realTomCrean said:

Absolutely nothing worse than a full week between games after a bad loss

[Home Jersey 10,532]

41 minutes ago, IU_FanClub said:

Absolutely nothing worse than a full week between games after a bad loss

Hope sitting with the stink of that loss for a full week lights a flame under them and we see real intensity on Saturday. 

Feels like the crowd at SSAH is usually able to will the team into at least keeping it competitive, up to a certain point anyway. 

Auburn was so deflating... We can't lose to the 3 big brand name non-conf opponents all by 20+. Totally embarrassing. Can you really call it "making a statement" if we just manage to lose by 10 or less? With the B10 being down, we can still make the tournament but we're not making it easy on ourselves. 

I think what was most disappointing about Auburn was just how brutally it exposed the deficiencies we already knew were there. We just don't have the horses in the backcourt this year to be a real threat. It can still be an entertaining/good season. All is not lost.

At the same time.......... better learn from this past cycle and make sure we wrap the spring cycle with a balanced roster, equipped for the modern game. 

[str8baller 5,992]

26 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

Can you really call it "making a statement" if we just manage to lose by 10 or less?

If it is competitive throughout and we lose by mid-single digits or less, I’ll feel better about our trajectory. It would probably even increase or efficiency rankings given how poor they are now.  
 

I saw a stat the other day that Kansas has beat the most ranked teams in the last ten years or something. Out of all the teams coming into Assembly Hall, I think they’ll be the least intimidated.