Game Thread: Indiana vs. Arizona (12/10) 7:30 p.m. EST on Fox

[Hoosierfan2017 22,261]

29 minutes ago, rcs29 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (not being a smart @$$) seriously correct me, but aren't you one of the people that kept insisting K. Lander get more PT last year? Seems like a similar type of argument here except you're on the other side this time. And K. Lander didn't do worth a diddly poo against B1G or cupcakes.

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Yes. I thought he should’ve been getting some of Phinisee’s minutes. I was wrong about Lander being any good, but hey it happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,866]

1 hour ago, rcs29 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (not being a smart @$$) seriously correct me, but aren't you one of the people that kept insisting K. Lander get more PT last year? Seems like a similar type of argument here except you're on the other side this time. And K. Lander didn't do worth a diddly poo against B1G or cupcakes.

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Kinda wish we still had Lander... Need an extra ball handler at times. 

[HoosierHoopster 7,283]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Oh the irony. 

There’s nothing cherry picked about my stats. If you want to wax poetic about how amazing Geronimo was against 3-7 Little Rock, knock yourself out. You can go on and on about how great IUFB did against Idaho too while you’re at it. I do not care about how he does against crappy teams. We don’t play in a conference with schools of that caliber. We play in the Big 10. I care about how he does against Big 10 caliber schools because, guess what, that’s who we play the rest of the season. We only have two cupcakes left. Against non-cupcake teams JG hasn’t done jack this season. That’s just reality. 

Yeah, you cherry pick all over the place, man it's just obvious. I guess JG didn't play in the NCAA tourney (not to mention the B1G tourney -- "cupcakes"? -- that earned him the added min in the NCAA tourney and helped us get there). The cupcake thing is just silly.

So let' start with the NCAA tourney -- as in when Woodson stated he "discovered" Geronimo, and played him significant minutes.

v Wyoming 7-11 (1-4 from arc) for 15 (2nd on team), 7 boards (2nd, tied w/Race), 1 block, 0 TO's.

Crappy team? Idaho? Right. JG was one of the best on the floor, as recognized by about everyone.

v St Mary's 3-6 (1-1) for 9 (3rd on team), 6 boards (led team), 1 TO. We got curb stomped, but JG played well. Cupcake?

But forget the silly cupcake thing, how about minutes? - 20. Minutes matter, but you also ignore them.

so this season

After first game, in which he played poorly -- against a "cupcake" -- he played well for several, with good minutes-- and yeah, they're not the strongest teams, but then like I've been saying over and over again, but which you also ignore, JG played well in the earlier games but hasn't done well in the past few against the better teams, on limited minutes, he's getting pulled and then he isn't getting the opportunity to show/contribute.

What stood out from the first 6-7 games, regardless of level of competition, is that he-- with Ren -- played good minutes and in those he performed well all around.
v Morehead 5-7 for 10 in 17 min
v Bethun 4-5 for 11 (4 boards) though in 12 min
v Xavier - only 5 min, and played poorly in those 5, but never got back on the floor. 5 min tells us nothing about what he could do.

Also been saying -- my opinion -- JG seems to be getting pulled quickly because it looks like Woodson still doesn't trust him much yet, because - again my opinion - he still has his raw moments and Woodson wants veteran and/or polished play on the floor. Same reason Woodson insisted on playing that terrible backcourt despite all their awful games, and didn't play Bates much last season (and I think he should have, even as a frosh he would've done better than that terrible guard play).

Related, it's also clear Woodson has limited Malik's minutes during these games, because he's learning not to foul better bigs, though I think we'll see Malik's minutes growing soon, as they should.

Then
v Miami-O 6 pts, 5 blocks, 4 boards in 20 min
v Ark-LR 5-6 for 11 pts, 5 blocks (again), 2 boards, 17 min

-- Who else has 2 5 block games on this team? I guess it doesn't mean anything though, we should all just ignore it.
v Jackson St 3-4 for 6 w/6 boards in 20 min

And now the minutes drop and down goes his contribution level

v UNC 1-3 for 2 pts, 2 boards, dropped to 11 min -- Malik also 11 min, and was 1-6 for 2
v Rutgers, 0-5 for 2 in 11 min, not a good game --   and Malik 1-2 for 2 in 15 min
v Neb - dropped to 9 min, 0-2 (Malik 2-2 for 4 pts in 11 min)
v AZ 1-2 for 2 pts in 8 min (Malik 2-5 for 4 in 14 min).

So in the past 4 games he's played 11 minutes or less, and 8 minutes? Yeah, he didn't score much, golly, what a shocker. Minutes are earned, but then whether a player has earned them is in eye of the coach, and on this, yeah, I disagree with where it looks like Woodson is now, just like I disagreed with the same starting backcourt all last year despite how badly they played.

JG and Malik actually have pretty similar numbers on close to equal minutes, clear that Malik will work through learning not to foul better front court players, his all around game is really smooth, foot work is outstanding, but JG brings a strong complimentary game with good front court D and athleticism --

And that' s what I "wax poetic" about -- I want the strong athletic energetic game he brings, that we often lack when he's not on the floor (and/or when Malik isn't on the floor). We get beat up by teams like Rutgers and AZ, TJD and Race obviously bring a great deal to the team, they're two of our best players, but athletic, aggressive D against strong and/or athletic front court players isn't their game, we miss that when JG and Malik aren't out there, and we, in my opinion, need more versatility, not just rolling out the same guys in the same minutes no matter what.

Enjoy your post-loss critiques, later.

[HoosierHoopster 7,283]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Yes. I thought he should’ve been getting some of Phinisee’s minutes. I was wrong about Lander being any good, but hey it happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"Oh the irony"

[Hoosierfan2017 22,261]

43 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Yeah, you cherry pick all over the place, man it's just obvious. I guess JG didn't play in the NCAA tourney (not to mention the B1G tourney -- "cupcakes"? -- that earned him the added min in the NCAA tourney and helped us get there). The cupcake thing is just silly.

So let' start with the NCAA tourney -- as in when Woodson stated he "discovered" Geronimo, and played him significant minutes.

v Wyoming 7-11 (1-4 from arc) for 15 (2nd on team), 7 boards (2nd, tied w/Race), 1 block, 0 TO's.

Crappy team? Idaho? Right. JG was one of the best on the floor, as recognized by about everyone.

v St Mary's 3-6 (1-1) for 9 (3rd on team), 6 boards (led team), 1 TO. We got curb stomped, but JG played well. Cupcake?

But forget the silly cupcake thing, how about minutes? - 20. Minutes matter, but you also ignore them.

so this season

After first game, in which he played poorly -- against a "cupcake" -- he played well for several, with good minutes-- and yeah, they're not the strongest teams, but then like I've been saying over and over again, but which you also ignore, JG played well in the earlier games but hasn't done well in the past few against the better teams, on limited minutes, he's getting pulled and then he isn't getting the opportunity to show/contribute.

What stood out from the first 6-7 games, regardless of level of competition, is that he-- with Ren -- played good minutes and in those he performed well all around.
v Morehead 5-7 for 10 in 17 min
v Bethun 4-5 for 11 (4 boards) though in 12 min
v Xavier - only 5 min, and played poorly in those 5, but never got back on the floor. 5 min tells us nothing about what he could do.

Also been saying -- my opinion -- JG seems to be getting pulled quickly because it looks like Woodson still doesn't trust him much yet, because - again my opinion - he still has his raw moments and Woodson wants veteran and/or polished play on the floor. Same reason Woodson insisted on playing that terrible backcourt despite all their awful games, and didn't play Bates much last season (and I think he should have, even as a frosh he would've done better than that terrible guard play).

Related, it's also clear Woodson has limited Malik's minutes during these games, because he's learning not to foul better bigs, though I think we'll see Malik's minutes growing soon, as they should.

Then
v Miami-O 6 pts, 5 blocks, 4 boards in 20 min
v Ark-LR 5-6 for 11 pts, 5 blocks (again), 2 boards, 17 min

-- Who else has 2 5 block games on this team? I guess it doesn't mean anything though, we should all just ignore it.
v Jackson St 3-4 for 6 w/6 boards in 20 min

And now the minutes drop and down goes his contribution level

v UNC 1-3 for 2 pts, 2 boards, dropped to 11 min -- Malik also 11 min, and was 1-6 for 2
v Rutgers, 0-5 for 2 in 11 min, not a good game --   and Malik 1-2 for 2 in 15 min
v Neb - dropped to 9 min, 0-2 (Malik 2-2 for 4 pts in 11 min)
v AZ 1-2 for 2 pts in 8 min (Malik 2-5 for 4 in 14 min).

So in the past 4 games he's played 11 minutes or less, and 8 minutes? Yeah, he didn't score much, golly, what a shocker. Minutes are earned, but then whether a player has earned them is in eye of the coach, and on this, yeah, I disagree with where it looks like Woodson is now, just like I disagreed with the same starting backcourt all last year despite how badly they played.

JG and Malik actually have pretty similar numbers on close to equal minutes, clear that Malik will work through learning not to foul better front court players, his all around game is really smooth, foot work is outstanding, but JG brings a strong complimentary game with good front court D and athleticism --

And that' s what I "wax poetic" about -- I want the strong athletic energetic game he brings, that we often lack when he's not on the floor (and/or when Malik isn't on the floor). We get beat up by teams like Rutgers and AZ, TJD and Race obviously bring a great deal to the team, they're two of our best players, but athletic, aggressive D against strong and/or athletic front court players isn't their game, we miss that when JG and Malik aren't out there, and we, in my opinion, need more versatility, not just rolling out the same guys in the same minutes no matter what.

Enjoy your post-loss critiques, later.

Why do you get so bent out of shape over people’s Geronimo comments, lol. It’s not personal, it’s just basketball. 

From the first paragraph of my initial post to you: “He hasn’t had a single good game against a legitimate team this year.” Yeah, he had some good games against good teams last year. Never said he didn’t. But it’s a new season, we have more frontcourt depth, and he hasn’t shown anything this season to show that he deserves more minutes. 

It’s not just the lack of scoring. Scoring isn’t really his strength. It’s the lack of other statistics too. Yeah, we get beat up by teams like Rutgers. In 12 minutes against Rutgers he grabbed 0 rebounds. You can’t have a frontcourt player grabbing 0 rebounds. Same thing against Nebraska. Only 1 rebound against Arizona. He’s not scoring, he’s not rebounding. You brought up his two 5 block games. Do you know how many blocks he’s had against Xavier, UNC, Rutgers, Nebraska, and Arizona? 0.

Why does he deserve more minutes? When you’re the 9th guy in the rotation you better make the most out of your minutes. He hasn’t been, so he doesn’t play more. You can disagree with me regarding how much emphasis to put on his cupcake performances, but it’s clear that Woodson agrees. Woodson saw his performances in those games, from a much closer viewpoint than either of us, and he doesn’t think the performances warrant more playing time. 

[JSHoosier 20,799]

Geronimo has 3 rebounds in the last 4 games, total.  That's not good.  He's shooting about 17% from 3 (and has gotten worse each year in slightly increasing attempts), that's awful.  Woodson has been around the game a long time, he obviously doesn't think Geronimo has earned more time either in game performance or practice.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,580]

10 hours ago, rcs29 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (not being a smart @$$) seriously correct me, but aren't you one of the people that kept insisting K. Lander get more PT last year? Seems like a similar type of argument here except you're on the other side this time. And K. Lander didn't do worth a diddly poo against B1G or cupcakes.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 

They were both blunders on Archies part. 

[JSHoosier 20,799]

Geronimo's FT percentage is 75%, highest of his career, and he's STILL only a 53% shooter from the line.  In roughly the same minutes, actually about a little higher this year, he's averaging fewer rebounds than he did last year.

[HoosierX 1,675]

18 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Why do you get so bent out of shape over people’s Geronimo comments, lol. It’s not personal, it’s just basketball. 

From the first paragraph of my initial post to you: “He hasn’t had a single good game against a legitimate team this year.” Yeah, he had some good games against good teams last year. Never said he didn’t. But it’s a new season, we have more frontcourt depth, and he hasn’t shown anything this season to show that he deserves more minutes. 

It’s not just the lack of scoring. Scoring isn’t really his strength. It’s the lack of other statistics too. Yeah, we get beat up by teams like Rutgers. In 12 minutes against Rutgers he grabbed 0 rebounds. You can’t have a frontcourt player grabbing 0 rebounds. Same thing against Nebraska. Only 1 rebound against Arizona. He’s not scoring, he’s not rebounding. You brought up his two 5 block games. Do you know how many blocks he’s had against Xavier, UNC, Rutgers, Nebraska, and Arizona? 0.

Why does he deserve more minutes? When you’re the 9th guy in the rotation you better make the most out of your minutes. He hasn’t been, so he doesn’t play more. You can disagree with me regarding how much emphasis to put on his cupcake performances, but it’s clear that Woodson agrees. Woodson saw his performances in those games, from a much closer viewpoint than either of us, and he doesn’t think the performances warrant more playing time. 

Agreed. I don’t know how anyone can watch Geronimo this year and think this is a guy that deserves more minutes. He may be a good 1 on 1 defender in the post, but he’s often out of position on defense and he’s slow laterally. He’s also failed to convert on easy shots near the basket numerous times this year and has almost no versatility on the offensive side of the ball. He’s jacking up 3s when open and shooting a torrid 17% from the arc with many of his misses being not even close. I was hoping for a big jump this year from him, but I just don’t see it.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,580]

18 minutes ago, HoosierX said:

Agreed. I don’t know anyone watch Geronimo this year and this is a guy that deserves more minutes. He may be a good 1 on 1 defender in the post, but he’s often out of position on defense and he’s slow laterally. He’s also failed to convert on easy shots near the basket numerous times this year and has almost no versatility on the offensive side of the ball. He’s jacking up 3s when open and shooting a torrid 17% from the arc with many of his misses being not even close. I was hoping for a big jump this year from him, but I just don’t see it.

He really struggles to know when to duck in/catch the ball when another player penetrates. He is consistently a step slow defensively, for sure. 

Haven't they mentioned he didn't play basketball until HS or something? I think that really shows up defensively. 

Should have been a goal keeper. 

[HoosierHoopster 7,283]

8 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Why do you get so bent out of shape over people’s Geronimo comments, lol. It’s not personal, it’s just basketball. 

From the first paragraph of my initial post to you: “He hasn’t had a single good game against a legitimate team this year.” Yeah, he had some good games against good teams last year. Never said he didn’t. But it’s a new season, we have more frontcourt depth, and he hasn’t shown anything this season to show that he deserves more minutes. 

It’s not just the lack of scoring. Scoring isn’t really his strength. It’s the lack of other statistics too. Yeah, we get beat up by teams like Rutgers. In 12 minutes against Rutgers he grabbed 0 rebounds. You can’t have a frontcourt player grabbing 0 rebounds. Same thing against Nebraska. Only 1 rebound against Arizona. He’s not scoring, he’s not rebounding. You brought up his two 5 block games. Do you know how many blocks he’s had against Xavier, UNC, Rutgers, Nebraska, and Arizona? 0.

Why does he deserve more minutes? When you’re the 9th guy in the rotation you better make the most out of your minutes. He hasn’t been, so he doesn’t play more. You can disagree with me regarding how much emphasis to put on his cupcake performances, but it’s clear that Woodson agrees. Woodson saw his performances in those games, from a much closer viewpoint than either of us, and he doesn’t think the performances warrant more playing time. 

Where we agree: in the last several games, when his minutes were dropped, he hasn't rebounded well (which is surprising to me, he rebounded very well last season) and his timing has been off, and then Woodson has yanked him, with better front court depth (Malik is outstanding), and as I already said, Woodson's trust level with him appears to be lower than with others, resulting in his reduced minutes the second he makes a mistake.

We we disagree: He was playing well, making "the most of his minutes" in basically all of the games this year up to the UNC game (as he only got 5 minutes against Xavier there's just nothing to be seen from that game other than Woodson yanked him), and his 'stats' clearly reflect that. You talk about "cupcake" games as the games he's played well, but you do that ignoring what he did in the B1G tourney and NCAA tourney coming into this season, to then minimize how he's played over more than half of this season.

Why is it so important to you to cast him as a player who can only play well against "cupcakes?" Why do you ignore how he played in the B1G tourney and NCAA tourney just last year? Are we now just entering conference play, is it still early in the season? Why do you ignore that it's pretty hard to rack up rebounds and blocks in 8, 9 or 11 minutes? If you cross compare how many blocks or boards Malik has on a same minute basis they're awfully close, minutes matter. So we got our tail handed to us by two teams whose bigs know how to run and play aggressive, athletic ball.  And was Woodson right to start, and play Stewart 20-plus mpg last year while he played terribly in almost every game? His decisions on minutes are always right, right? hy try to make this about how Woodson knows best? You argued for more minutes for Lander when Woodson wasn't playing him, you didn't say Woodson knows best then, right? But on Lander -- and for me, on Hunter, Woodson was right then. I've already said I'm big on Woodson, I like and trust him as our coach, I think he clearly has us on a good path, his recruiting is good, and his and staff's game planning is mostly good, but no, I don't think every decision he makes on who to play and when is right, and yeah, I think JG has shown, when actually getting minutes, that he contributes well, and yeah, his stats do reflect that. No, it's not personal, but the way you post is just to argue and minimize, and that gets old to me.

[Uspshoosier 47,283]

[Stuhoo 82,766]

[Hoosierfan2017 22,261]

54 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Where we agree: in the last several games, when his minutes were dropped, he hasn't rebounded well (which is surprising to me, he rebounded very well last season) and his timing has been off, and then Woodson has yanked him, with better front court depth (Malik is outstanding), and as I already said, Woodson's trust level with him appears to be lower than with others, resulting in his reduced minutes the second he makes a mistake.

We we disagree: He was playing well, making "the most of his minutes" in basically all of the games this year up to the UNC game (as he only got 5 minutes against Xavier there's just nothing to be seen from that game other than Woodson yanked him), and his 'stats' clearly reflect that. You talk about "cupcake" games as the games he's played well, but you do that ignoring what he did in the B1G tourney and NCAA tourney coming into this season, to then minimize how he's played over more than half of this season.

Why is it so important to you to cast him as a player who can only play well against "cupcakes?" Why do you ignore how he played in the B1G tourney and NCAA tourney just last year? Are we now just entering conference play, is it still early in the season? Why do you ignore that it's pretty hard to rack up rebounds and blocks in 8, 9 or 11 minutes? If you cross compare how many blocks or boards Malik has on a same minute basis they're awfully close, minutes matter. So we got our tail handed to us by two teams whose bigs know how to run and play aggressive, athletic ball.  And was Woodson right to start, and play Stewart 20-plus mpg last year while he played terribly in almost every game? His decisions on minutes are always right, right? hy try to make this about how Woodson knows best? You argued for more minutes for Lander when Woodson wasn't playing him, you didn't say Woodson knows best then, right? But on Lander -- and for me, on Hunter, Woodson was right then. I've already said I'm big on Woodson, I like and trust him as our coach, I think he clearly has us on a good path, his recruiting is good, and his and staff's game planning is mostly good, but no, I don't think every decision he makes on who to play and when is right, and yeah, I think JG has shown, when actually getting minutes, that he contributes well, and yeah, his stats do reflect that. No, it's not personal, but the way you post is just to argue and minimize, and that gets old to me.

I’m not casting him as a player who can only play well against cupcakes. We saw him have good games against good teams last season. But that was a year ago. I’m talking about this season. Sometimes guys regress year over year (Phinisee, for example). Has Geronimo regressed? Is he just in a rut? I don’t know. Whatever the reason, he’s struggled this year. Yes, it’s hard to produce without minutes, but if you aren’t producing in the minutes you do get it’s hard for the coach to justify giving you even more. 

Woodson doesn’t always get it right. But it’s not like he isn’t playing JG at all. He’s in the rotation.  He’s playing the same amount as he did last year. It’d be one thing if JG came in, lit it up during the stretch, and then sat on the bench the rest of the game. Woodson is playing a shorter rotation than he did last year, which I like. I agree with you that 5 minutes is hard to make an impact in. But, for example, against Rutgers he played 12 minutes. He shot 0-5 from the field and had 0 rebounds, steals, or blocks. You can’t really afford to keep a guy out there when that’s what he’s giving you.

[HoosierHoopster 7,283]

4 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I’m not casting him as a player who can only play well against cupcakes. We saw him have good games against good teams last season. But that was a year ago. I’m talking about this season. Sometimes guys regress year over year (Phinisee, for example). Has Geronimo regressed? Is he just in a rut? I don’t know. Whatever the reason, he’s struggled this year. Yes, it’s hard to produce without minutes, but if you aren’t producing in the minutes you do get it’s hard for the coach to justify giving you even more. 

Woodson doesn’t always get it right. But it’s not like he isn’t playing JG at all. He’s in the rotation.  He’s playing the same amount as he did last year. It’d be one thing if JG came in, lit it up during the stretch, and then sat on the bench the rest of the game. Woodson is playing a shorter rotation than he did last year, which I like. I agree with you that 5 minutes is hard to make an impact in. But, for example, against Rutgers he played 12 minutes. He shot 0-5 from the field and had 0 rebounds, steals, or blocks. You can’t really afford to keep a guy out there when that’s what he’s giving you.

I think we've beaten this horse to death, and we got a little nudge above to move on (lol). JG's minutes were more in the games before the last 5 or so, and he produced in those, like he did end of last year, that's my point. Malik had a really off game or two, in his (reduced) minutes over the past few games, yeah, that happens, and no, it doesn't mean that's the player he is. I have no issues if JG gets good time and doesn't perform over several games, that would be what it would be. But we don't know that, and trying to say we do based on limited minutes over a few games doesn't get you there. I don't know if Woodson is right or wrong right now, I disagree with how JG's minutes have been limited (5??, 8??) in some of these games, but we'll see how that plays out. I'd bet on him getting back into better performances, but we'll see. Now I'm exiting this convo - later.

[LIHoosier 26,825]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:50 PM, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Mike Woodson confirms that assistant coach Brian Walsh is the head scout for the Kansas game this weekend.

Way to give the top game of the year to the new guy and de facto make him the scapegoat.