IUBB @ Michigan State - 02/12/22 @ 3:30 on Fox-TV

[jk34]

7 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

You realize Al Durham is starting, averaging 14 points per game, playing 35 mpg for a top 10 team in the country right?

he is the missing piece for us. He does a little of everything and isn’t bi-polar and a black hole when it comes to setting a good example both on and off the court

good riddance right?

35 mpg, 33fg'%, 23%3fg, almost 1:1 tor, and 13.5 ppg

"I'm a little concerned of the smarts of our fanbase with posts like this"

[MikeRoberts]

7 hours ago, IU - Kaulie said:

Missing piece?

I would say a strong NO.  We would be worse than we are now.  X is far superior. Durham is a very good kid but as far as basketball goes X is a much better fit for us.

X is a crazy man on the court, flailing around, swinging his arms and legs at players, screaming at refs and also leading others off court to make bad decisions.

durham on the other hand was a good teammate, level headed, and is the most important player for the #8 team in the country. He almost plays every minute of every game. 

 

[MikeRoberts]

47 minutes ago, jk34 said:

35 mpg, 33fg'%, 23%3fg, almost 1:1 tor, and 13.5 ppg

"I'm a little concerned of the smarts of our fanbase with posts like this"

You haven’t watched a Friars game this year have you? He is the leader of that team, plays almost the entire game, they rarely sub him. He is the leader of the first unit and the second unit. There is a reason he plays more than any other guy on that team, a team that is #8 in the country

[HoosierAloha]

9 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

the difference between the 3rd SOS and 60th SOS is not a 20+ percent difference in winning percentage.

Who's better this year, Oregon or Missouri? Missouri 9th in SOS, Oregon 75th.  Oregon 16-8, Missouri 10-14.  Basically the same scenario where you are saying IU wiht the 3rd SOS last year and a 12-15 record wasn't worse than 16-8 with a 60 SOS this year. 

 

9 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

A few more data points to continue on this theme.

Last season our SOS was 3rd and this season it is 60th. Any more evidence that needs to be provided that last season's record was more difficult?

Last season our Simple Rating System was 44th, this season it is 33rd. I guess it depends on the varying definitions of "some" is to different posters.

The eye test will tell most that we're not vastly or world's better. We have improved, think most people acknowledge this, but to what degree is what people will argue.

 

8 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

You can complain until the cows come how, it's a free message board.  I just don't think if we make the tourney you can make a honest argument that the team didn't improve from last year.

In terms of losing a bunch of games in Assembly Hall last year, that cuts both ways.  It should have translated to being able to pick up the lost wins on the road.  Across the nation, road winning percentages were up last year.

 

8 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

Did you even bother to read what I put?  I clearly said IF we make the tourney.  Stop with the 'false narrative' talk.

Same question for you, I even highlighted the points to make it easier for you.

Again, this goes back to my point that some interpret what they want because ACTUALLY reading and understanding is difficult. That's on you.

And yes, at this point (read that again, that means today, current, as it stands, NOTHING about the future) 4 games difference between the two teams isn't inconceivable between last seasons team and this seasons team when you look at the SOS. Your attempt at Pom top 100 games was was so clever to compare them, although the quantity and quality were vastly different. (this means that they weren't anything alike and my hunch is the conference schedules weren't equal either)

With ALL that said, I do believe this team is an improvement over last seasons team. (read that again, too, it seems like you missed it the first 5+ times I stated it)

You are correct though, IU has a better record against the Pom top 350 teams this season.

[HoosierAloha]

Happy for Al Durham and what he has done. I'm sure he's happy for what he has learned going to a different program too. We could absolutely use his free throw shooting this season.

[MikeRoberts]

34 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Happy for Al Durham and what he has done. I'm sure he's happy for what he has learned going to a different program too. We could absolutely use his free throw shooting this season.

That’s part of what some of these people are missing that are poo pooing Durham.

he does a little of everything which we lack on this team and that includes leadership.

people talk about lack of shooting…. That is too specific. We have a lack of SCORING that is the real issue. Al draws fouls by being aggressive and when he gets to the line he knocks them down.

we don’t have that on this team.

[HoosierAloha]

7 hours ago, jk34 said:

Those are yellow flags, at best. Year one of taking over a business, is about evaluating talent, and deciding who contributes(and who doesn't), to your vision moving forward. 

"People buy into the leader before they buy into the vision.”

I see 3-4 players, on the current roster, who might resemble what Woody's vision is for our future.

Are you saying players aren't buying into Woody the leader?

I could see your point. 5 players being suspended for not buying in and respecting their coach, although I'm sure there is more of a backstory there. Players not doing what they're told to do (TJD shooting). If players aren't buying into the leader do we just rotate players and hope for a better outcome next season.

[HoosierAloha]

10 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

More data points, I have no idea the wildly different adjusted numbers between sports reference and Ken Pom. It would be interested to dig into.

Top one is obviously 2021-2022 and bottom 2020-2021

Defense improved by quite a bit and offense dropped drastically.

Someone mentioned something about losing a ton of games in the Hall last season. More data points, IU was probably hurt more by empty gyms than others, although that could probably be argued.

 

9 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

You can complain until the cows come how, it's a free message board.  I just don't think if we make the tourney you can make a honest argument that the team didn't improve from last year.

In terms of losing a bunch of games in Assembly Hall last year, that cuts both ways.  It should have translated to being able to pick up the lost wins on the road.  Across the nation, road winning percentages were up last year.

Typically, does IU have a better home environment than others?

IF IU can win their last 3 on the road games, they'll tie last seasons team in wins away from home.

[jk34]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

Are you saying players aren't buying into Woody the leader?

I could see your point. 5 players being suspended for not buying in and respecting their coach, although I'm sure there is more of a backstory there. Players not doing what they're told to do (TJD shooting). If players aren't buying into the leader do we just rotate players and hope for a better outcome next season.

Read the reactions of recruits and their parents. I believe people are buying into our leader and vision, for our future. 

Taking over a business the first year, is about evaluating the talent(or lack thereof), and making the proper personnel decisions for the future.

[HoosierAloha]

22 minutes ago, jk34 said:

Read the reactions of recruits and their parents. I believe people are buying into our leader and vision, for our future. 

Taking over a business the first year, is about evaluating the talent(or lack thereof), and making the proper personnel decisions for the future.

That's great it MAY happen in the future.

Who brought these players in? Who recruited these players to stay?

In year 1, you set the expectations and foundation. We're now talking about scraping players to bring in others to hope those players will be the foundation. We've seen this song and dance before. As with the shooting, turnovers, and many other issues, it is that way until it is not. We haven't shown much ability to make the change.

[Hovadipo]

Complaining about Woody re-recruiting Archie's guys is hilarious. What was he supposed to do? Dump them all and start from scratch? This place would be a BLAST if we went full Minnesota with a bunch more transfer portal guys, some D2 and JUCO dudes and Tamar Bates. Maybe he could've thrown everyone in the trash and convinced TJD to come back with that roster.

"Oh, but he should've reloaded with BETTER transfer portal guys!"

Yes, the magical transfer portal, through which there has been...???...successful complete roster rebuilds ever. Hoiberg is absolutely killing it at Nebraska with that gameplan and he even added a 5-star to the mix!

 

I choose patience and understanding.

[IUc2016]

1 minute ago, Hovadipo said:

Complaining about Woody re-recruiting Archie's guys is hilarious. What was he supposed to do? Dump them all and start from scratch? This place would be a BLAST if we went full Minnesota with a bunch more transfer portal guys, some D2 and JUCO dudes and Tamar Bates. Maybe he could've thrown everyone in the trash and convinced TJD to come back with that roster.

"Oh, but he should've reloaded with BETTER transfer portal guys!"

Yes, the magical transfer portal, through which there has been...???...successful complete roster rebuilds ever. Hoiberg is absolutely killing it at Nebraska with that gameplan and he even added a 5-star to the mix!

Sometimes I just can't with this fanbase. Of course the roster needs to get better, but thinking he should have kicked average big ten talent to the curb to make way for below average big ten talent is, well, below average logic.

[jk34]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

That's great it MAY happen in the future.

Who brought these players in? Who recruited these players to stay?

In year 1, you set the expectations and foundation. We're now talking about scraping players to bring in others to hope those players will be the foundation. We've seen this song and dance before. As with the shooting, turnovers, and many other issues, it is that way until it is not. We haven't shown much ability to make the change.

Thank you for proving my point.

Some of us older fans, who've witnessed 3 NC, are just as frustrated as anyone. But comparing the past(good or bad) is short sighted. If Woody is not successful in the next few years,we'll go back to the drawing board. 

When CBK suspended players, did it mean players weren't buying into their leader? 

We all want the same thing for this program,  but "fans" (not you)coming on here and saying this coach is not the answer 3/4 of the way through his first season, is a little unrealistic. 

Players and parents (current and future) might be lurking on BTB.

[RaceToTheTop]

43 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

 

Typically, does IU have a better home environment than others?

IF IU can win their last 3 on the road games, they'll tie last seasons team in wins away from home.

Got it.  Wins and losses only count if they fit your narrative.

But since you brought it up: Pom has tracked the difference in points relative to competition of teams playing at home compared to the road.  All Big Ten teams since it has been tracked have been between +3.3 to +4.0 points at home.  IU is at +3.5.  Places that are toughest to win at in the Big Ten are due to teams being good to begin with.  In Big Ten play, Archie Miller's teams were 16-14 AT HOME. 

Big Ten teams that Miller lost home games to during his tenure:

Nebraska

Michigan (x2)

Iowa

Ohio State

Purdue (x3)

Maryland

Wisconsin

Northwestern

Rutgers

Illinois

Michigan State

That's 11 of the 13 teams.  The only teams he didn't lose to at Assembly were Minnesota and Penn State.  He was 2-0 against each of them with a largest margin of victory of 8 points.

[IUFAN1976]

11 hours ago, Southside said:

Gonna take a few years for CMW to get his players, create the culture, and really be able to run his system. 

I think many expect too much in year one, especially with 3 new starters that never played at IU before..... I'm just happy with the win over PU at this point. 

Given our starters aren't going to take us far, I just hope we can get some of the younger guys more PT to prep for next year. 

You are going to ruffle a lot of feathers with that comment, but I do agree!

[Uspshoosier]

19 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

Complaining about Woody re-recruiting Archie's guys is hilarious. What was he supposed to do? Dump them all and start from scratch? This place would be a BLAST if we went full Minnesota with a bunch more transfer portal guys, some D2 and JUCO dudes and Tamar Bates. Maybe he could've thrown everyone in the trash and convinced TJD to come back with that roster.

"Oh, but he should've reloaded with BETTER transfer portal guys!"

Yes, the magical transfer portal, through which there has been...???...successful complete roster rebuilds ever. Hoiberg is absolutely killing it at Nebraska with that gameplan and he even added a 5-star to the mix!

 

I choose patience and understanding.

I know it’s very extreme but part of me wished he took this approach and just let everyone from the previous staff move on and start from scratch.    Only reason I say that is IU’s culture hasn’t been the greatest over the years and I was ready for a complete blowup.   Having said that I realized this was never going to happen because coaches get paid to win games and Woodys best chance at winning was always keeping as many players from last years team and hoping he could instill a different mind set and get different results and he still might get that.    Whether fans like it or not coaches are going to get time to try and build up there culture.    People in the industry and other coaches have said they won’t judge a coach until at least 3 years.  That works both ways whether the coach does great the first 3 years or does terrible.  Fans don’t have to like it or agree with it but that’s what going to happen in almost every coaches case.    
 

wahsington is probably glad they didn’t give Hopkins a huge extension after the success he had early and I’m sure a lot of other schools  are glad they didn’t fire their coach after a rough start 

[HoosierAloha]

11 minutes ago, jk34 said:

Thank you for proving my point.

Some of us older fans, who've witnessed 3 NC, are just as frustrated as anyone. But comparing the past(good or bad) is short sighted. If Woody is not successful in the next few years,we'll go back to the drawing board. 

When CBK suspended players, did it mean players weren't buying into their leader? 

We all want the same thing for this program,  but "fans" (not you)coming on here and saying this coach is not the answer 3/4 of the way through his first season, is a little unrealistic. 

Players and parents (current and future) might be lurking on BTB.

Let's talk about TJD for a minute. Why did he choose to stay? His dad and him had a discussion and bought in. There was this grand plan for him to develop. He was finally going to get that jumper and use his right hand. We're now 3/4 into the season, where is that jumper and right hand? TJD bought in and .... where is that development, where is the evidence? This is not to say he hasn't changed as a player, he has. He has done some tremendous things this season.

We hear it every off-season, player x is going to develop skill y. Player y is going to be so much better because z. The season rolls around we might see a little improvement. Why is that? Who was the last player or handful of players that drastically improved in the off-season. We've been a culture of hype and talk with little to back it up.

We've had Big 1.o finishes that don't align to the 'talent' that makes up the team. There can be a myriad reasons for that which include players and coaches. We need an identity and culture. Your first year as a coach is the perfect time to establish that. This program needs to shut it with the talk and prove it with action.

I stated early on what I was looking for and have continued, to the dismay of many, what I wanted to see throughout the season. The team has improved in some areas and largely stayed the same or gotten worse in several. The suspensions and last few games are concerning.

That's great, welcome to BTB, happy to have you. Maybe the players and parents (current and future) will pick up a few things and implement it. Here is one from me, I love me some Gallo and Race. Why? They mostly play hard and leave it on the court. Neither would be considered the most talented players on the court. Look at the end of the NW game, Gallo made some dumb mistakes but he gave it what he had. I appreciate that. That should be the baseline for this team. Imagine if every player on the roster put that on the court. That's where we should be starting at in year one. Optional e and e should have been sitting on the bench when we were going through our cupcakes.

[HoosierAloha]

40 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

Got it.  Wins and losses only count if they fit your narrative.

But since you brought it up: Pom has tracked the difference in points relative to competition of teams playing at home compared to the road.  All Big Ten teams since it has been tracked have been between +3.3 to +4.0 points at home.  IU is at +3.5.  Places that are toughest to win at in the Big Ten are due to teams being good to begin with.  In Big Ten play, Archie Miller's teams were 16-14 AT HOME. 

Big Ten teams that Miller lost home games to during his tenure:

Nebraska

Michigan (x2)

Iowa

Ohio State

Purdue (x3)

Maryland

Wisconsin

Northwestern

Rutgers

Illinois

Michigan State

That's 11 of the 13 teams.  The only teams he didn't lose to at Assembly were Minnesota and Penn State.  He was 2-0 against each of them with a largest margin of victory of 8 points.

Goodness we struggle mightily with some fairly basic concepts.

Flip the teams and where are we? Does Arch and Co. find a few more wins against a much more cupcakey noncon schedule and possibly conference schedule (still haven't dug into this)? Does Woody and Co. stumble a few more times against better competition on the road and away from Assembly Hall (the evidence, if you look at it, points to somewhere you might not like so I don't blame you for ignoring it although all those teams were in Pom top 300 so they're basically the same team).

Fantastic, there is a reason he was fired and that is part of it. Woody has matched him with the loss to Illinois and 1/2 way to the Michigan loss total in his first season.

[Hovadipo]

33 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

I know it’s very extreme but part of me wished he took this approach and just let everyone from the previous staff move on and start from scratch.    Only reason I say that is IU’s culture hasn’t been the greatest over the years and I was ready for a complete blowup.   Having said that I realized this was never going to happen because coaches get paid to win games and Woodys best chance at winning was always keeping as many players from last years team and hoping he could instill a different mind set and get different results and he still might get that.    Whether fans like it or not coaches are going to get time to try and build up there culture.    People in the industry and other coaches have said they won’t judge a coach until at least 3 years.  That works both ways whether the coach does great the first 3 years or does terrible.  Fans don’t have to like it or agree with it but that’s what going to happen in almost every coaches case.    
 

wahsington is probably glad they didn’t give Hopkins a huge extension after the success he had early and I’m sure a lot of other schools  are glad they didn’t fire their coach after a rough start 

I would've been on board with the blow-up because of my ability to pump the shiniest sunshine, my love for chaos, and being a patience haver, but I absolutely would've deleted my BtownBanners account if he did it.

[jk34]

7 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Let's talk about TJD for a minute. Why did he choose to stay? His dad and him had a discussion and bought in. There was this grand plan for him to develop. He was finally going to get that jumper and use his right hand. We're now 3/4 into the season, where is that jumper and right hand? TJD bought in and .... where is that development, where is the evidence? This is not to say he hasn't changed as a player, he has. He has done some tremendous things this season.

We hear it every off-season, player x is going to develop skill y. Player y is going to be so much better because z. The season rolls around we might see a little improvement. Why is that? Who was the last player or handful of players that drastically improved in the off-season. We've been a culture of hype and talk with little to back it up.

We've had Big 1.o finishes that don't align to the 'talent' that makes up the team. There can be a myriad reasons for that which include players and coaches. We need an identity and culture. Your first year as a coach is the perfect time to establish that. This program needs to shut it with the talk and prove it with action.

I stated early on what I was looking for and have continued, to the dismay of many, what I wanted to see throughout the season. The team has improved in some areas and largely stayed the same or gotten worse in several. The suspensions and last few games are concerning.

That's great, welcome to BTB, happy to have you. Maybe the players and parents (current and future) will pick up a few things and implement it. Here is one from me, I love me some Gallo and Race. Why? They mostly play hard and leave it on the court. Neither would be considered the most talented players on the court. Look at the end of the NW game, Gallo made some dumb mistakes but he gave it what he had. I appreciate that. That should be the baseline for this team. Imagine if every player on the roster put that on the court. That's where we should be starting at in year one. Optional e and e should have been sitting on the bench when we were going through our cupcakes.

Love Race,Trey,,and Jordan as well! I'm willing to live with the latter 2's mistakes, for the very reasons you mentioned. I also believe, Race is our most improved and MVP, as well. Wish we could've had Trey, for those few games. 

TJD is one of the guys, I mentioned,  who may have reached his ceiling. A poor man's Wayman Tisdale. Plus, our "shooters" are mediocre, at best. Give me Anthony Leal, over these 2, anyday.