Woodson's scheme(s)??

[Southside 1,914]

So..... trying to get an understanding of our new O and D schemes.

I've read that Woodson wants to play a 4-out / 1-in O, and somewhat familiar with it. Not seen much on our D scheme. 

Can anyone share what they've heard or read about our D? Also, an elaboration on the O would be appreciated too.

And just in general, what impact can we expect from Fife (to scheme). I know Fife is though of highly for D. 

And bonus, if we're running 4-out/1-in, is TJD going to be the in?

[FrenchConnection 196]

12 minutes ago, Southside said:

So..... trying to get an understanding of our new O and D schemes.

I've read that Woodson wants to play a 4-out / 1-in O, and somewhat familiar with it. Not seen much on our D scheme. 

Can anyone share what they've heard or read about our D? Also, an elaboration on the O would be appreciated too.

And just in general, what impact can we expect from Fife (to scheme). I know Fife is though of highly for D. 

And bonus, if we're running 4-out/1-in, is TJD going to be the in?

I don’t think anyone knows. You can’t look at the current Knicks because that’s Thibs team and his teams always play slowly. When Woody coached the Knicks he had Carmelo. Any team in the NBA with a star like Melo in his prime is going to run an offense just to get him the ball. But from the little that he has said, we’re going to get out and run and guys won’t be passing up shots. I just went and looked at IU’s stats for this past season and not only did we not shoot well, we also didn’t shoot. 260th in the NCAA in FGA. It quite literally can’t be worse.

Edited April 9, 2021 by FrenchConnection

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,312]

Yes TJD will be the primary 1 guy in. 
 

the 41 offense gives you the option to run PNR or PNP from the big which is what Archie liked to do (granted with terrible spacing).  
 

from the 41,  It’s a basic offense. Off that you can screen away and create movement/cutting. Give and goes are easy to run. Back cuts from corner with the action up top.  
 

most teams run stuff on ball for primary ball handler. Also the 1, can post up and get 1 on 1 action if spacing is right. Collapses lead to open 3 point shots. 
 

defense- he’s going to play M2M primarily and wants to switch a lot. Him not having coached college could make him more experimental on D but I think we will see basic NBA principles here.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,312]

1 minute ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Yes TJD will be the primary 1 guy in. 
 

the 41 offense gives you the option to run PNR or PNP from the big which is what Archie liked to do (granted with terrible spacing).  
 

from the 41,  It’s a basic offense. Off that you can screen away and create movement/cutting. Give and goes are easy to run. Back cuts from corner with the action up top.  
 

most teams run stuff on ball for primary ball handler. Also the 1, can post up and get 1 on 1 action if spacing is right. Collapses lead to open 3 point shots. 
 

defense- he’s going to play M2M primarily and wants to switch a lot. Him not having coached college could make him more experimental on D but I think we will see basic NBA principles here.

Also 41 can have 2 post options at times as players flash and stay in post then if not an option fill an outer spot again.  
 

Always helps to have 4 shooters to maximize the offense but that’s true with any offense. 
 

Will be interesting to see how they use race and trayce at the same time.  Neither shoot well outside of 15 feet.   Race is a tough one because he’s an undersized big that doesn’t really have wing skills.   Hope he can develop some of that. 

[Trish 11,551]

4 out, 1 in. 

 

We can predict TJD will be the main guy in, which seems to be the smart move at least. How Woody wants to surround TJD is with creators and shooters. We ran some 4 out, 1 in actions this past year when we went smaller. Problem is, we couldn't shoot and there was a lot of standing around.

The players have to become better shooters and that's really honestly the only factor to consider. If our team can't improve shooting, then we'll see B1G team shrinking the floor like they did last year vs us, even if we were to add cuts (motion). 

No idea on defense, Woody is more of a defensive coach to my understanding. While I'm excited to have Woodson bring back our main core, we still have a significant problem on shooting and scoring. Throw in defense on there. He's going to earn his pay-check this off-season I hope. 

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,312]

2 minutes ago, Trish said:

4 out, 1 in. 

 

We can predict TJD will be the main guy in, which seems to be the smart move at least. How Woody wants to surround TJD is with creators and shooters. We ran some 4 out, 1 in actions this past year when we went smaller. Problem is, we couldn't shoot and there was a lot of standing around.

The players have to become better shooters and that's really honestly the only factor to consider. If our team can't improve shooting, then we'll see B1G team shrinking the floor like they did last year vs us, even if we were to add cuts (motion). 

No idea on defense, Woody is more of a defensive coach to my understanding. While I'm excited to have Woodson bring back our main core, we still have a significant problem on shooting and scoring. Throw in defense on there. He's going to earn his pay-check this off-season I hope. 

One automatic chance for improvement despite shooting woes would be the encouragement of transition.  Lessen the amount of half court basketball.   It seems CMW wants them to get up and down.  Now the negative to this is increased TOs, like we had with Crean.  But I’ll prefer the faster pace and the players will too. 
 

shooting is always the answer. Our guys need to be better, but i hope transition game will open up some creativity. 

[IUc2016 7,121]

4 minutes ago, Trish said:

4 out, 1 in. 

 

We can predict TJD will be the main guy in, which seems to be the smart move at least. How Woody wants to surround TJD is with creators and shooters. We ran some 4 out, 1 in actions this past year when we went smaller. Problem is, we couldn't shoot and there was a lot of standing around.

The players have to become better shooters and that's really honestly the only factor to consider. If our team can't improve shooting, then we'll see B1G team shrinking the floor like they did last year vs us, even if we were to add cuts (motion). 

No idea on defense, Woody is more of a defensive coach to my understanding. While I'm excited to have Woodson bring back our main core, we still have a significant problem on shooting and scoring. Throw in defense on there. He's going to earn his pay-check this off-season I hope. 

you also need a guard that can penetrate the defense to kick it out. None of IU's guards last year could consistently get into the lane. Hopefully XJ and a more developed Lander can change that. 

but yes, SHOOTING. 

[Southside 1,914]

10 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Also 41 can have 2 post options at times as players flash and stay in post then if not an option fill an outer spot again.  
 

Always helps to have 4 shooters to maximize the offense but that’s true with any offense. 
 

Will be interesting to see how they use race and trayce at the same time.  Neither shoot well outside of 15 feet.   Race is a tough one because he’s an undersized big that doesn’t really have wing skills.   Hope he can develop some of that. 

From what I know, and what I've read on 41, it can have a lot of variation. Assuming TJD plays the "in", I'm starting to think we have Parker and Johnson on the wings, Lander/Phin at 1, and Geronimo/Hunter at 4. TJD playing primarily weakside to keep the lanes open. Just not sure where I'd put Race unless he's subbing in for TJD. 

 

17 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Yes TJD will be the primary 1 guy in. 
 

the 41 offense gives you the option to run PNR or PNP from the big which is what Archie liked to do (granted with terrible spacing).  
 

from the 41,  It’s a basic offense. Off that you can screen away and create movement/cutting. Give and goes are easy to run. Back cuts from corner with the action up top.  
 

most teams run stuff on ball for primary ball handler. Also the 1, can post up and get 1 on 1 action if spacing is right. Collapses lead to open 3 point shots. 
 

defense- he’s going to play M2M primarily and wants to switch a lot. Him not having coached college could make him more experimental on D but I think we will see basic NBA principles here.

I didn't think Archie played a 4-1?? Like you said, no where near the correct spacing.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,312]

Yeah, Archie ran a lot of 41 this year with TJD. But the shooters didn’t space well.  Maybe because they weren’t shooters or confident. 
 

We ran the high PNR action off this set ad nauseum. Hitting shots would have made it look better. 
 

archie also started running the action of reversing the ball and post man switching box and then a quick post feed.  That was our other go-to play that actually worked quite nicely with race and Trayce.  Nothing complicated, just a different look than the standard high ball screen. 

[FrenchConnection 196]

2 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Yeah, Archie ran a lot of 41 this year with TJD. But the shooters didn’t space well.  Maybe because they weren’t shooters or confident. 
 

We ran the high PNR action off this set ad nauseum. Hitting shots would have made it look better. 
 

archie also started running the action of reversing the ball and post man switching box and then a quick post feed.  That was our other go-to play that actually worked quite nicely with race and Trayce.  Nothing complicated, just a different look than the standard high ball screen. 

Archie’s IU teams played scared. 

[Trish 11,551]

7 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

One automatic chance for improvement despite shooting woes would be the encouragement of transition.  Lessen the amount of half court basketball.   It seems CMW wants them to get up and down.  Now the negative to this is increased TOs, like we had with Crean.  But I’ll prefer the faster pace and the players will too. 
 

shooting is always the answer. Our guys need to be better, but i hope transition game will open up some creativity. 

Yes I agree with the transition, we need to see more of that. I'd like to see Kristian and Johnson break out. Which falls back to shooting though, sprint to the corners or space the floor and hope we can make 3's suddenly. 

8 minutes ago, Southside said:

From what I know, and what I've read on 41, it can have a lot of variation. Assuming TJD plays the "in", I'm starting to think we have Parker and Johnson on the wings, Lander/Phin at 1, and Geronimo/Hunter at 4. TJD playing primarily weakside to keep the lanes open. Just not sure where I'd put Race unless he's subbing in for TJD. 

 

I didn't think Archie played a 4-1?? Like you said, no where near the correct spacing.

We played very little 4 out this past season. Most of it resulted after our initial action. Whether it was our PnR offense or the roll and replace actions, some of it resulted in 4-out type looks. It also didn't help that teams were shrinking the floor on us each night, which basically automatically resulted in 4-Out. This was seen in our small line-ups. 

There's so many variations of each offense in basketball, we'll find out eventually what the offense looks like in November. Archie switched up the offense this past season despite little roster construction changes. We could see Woodson change his mind based off player progression this summer. It starts and ends with our ability to shoot the 3 though. 

[Southside 1,914]

1 minute ago, Trish said:

Yes I agree with the transition, we need to see more of that. I'd like to see Kristian and Johnson break out. Which falls back to shooting though, sprint to the corners or space the floor and hope we can make 3's suddenly. 

We played very little 4 out this past season. Most of it resulted after our initial action. Whether it was our PnR offense or the roll and replace actions, some of it resulted in 4-out type looks. It also didn't help that teams were shrinking the floor on us each night, which basically automatically resulted in 4-Out. This was seen in our small line-ups. 

There's so many variations of each offense in basketball, we'll find out eventually what the offense looks like in November. Archie switched up the offense this past season despite little roster construction changes. We could see Woodson change his mind based off player progression this summer. It starts and ends with our ability to shoot the 3 though. 

With Parker and Johnson coming in, one would hope that we improve shooting in general, but also will have a lot of penetration opportunities if they are playing the wings. If Race is playing the 4, that would worry me a bit cause it seems like the opposing D could sag and clog the lanes though. 

[Trish 11,551]

39 minutes ago, Southside said:

With Parker and Johnson coming in, one would hope that we improve shooting in general, but also will have a lot of penetration opportunities if they are playing the wings. If Race is playing the 4, that would worry me a bit cause it seems like the opposing D could sag and clog the lanes though. 

I think Race has the potential to be a catch and shoot four. He hit a couple this season right? He honestly could have an NBA career if he add a 3 point shot. He reminds me of a Morgan in a way.  

[HoosierHoopster 6,963]

Side note, our guys can shoot better than the stats reflect, we shot from outside on a low volume basis in relation to other B1G teams (think we were around the bottom in number of outside shots) because CAM devalued the outside game and the idea our guys were 'scared' imo really is a reflection of not having the green light to shoot, under CAM.

In a 4-1 spread with dribble penetration and kick outs for spacing with a green (at least greener) light to shoot and an offense that actually looks to use the outside game,  think we'll see better percentages from several and we DO have guys who can shoot. Hunter and Leal absolutely can shoot and I'd bet on much higher percentages from both. Stewart can shoot. I'd bet on Geronimo expanding his outside game. Race has shown the ability to step out and knock it down, his outside game has at least some promise. Rob can shoot, with him imo how well is purely mental. He came into last year as one of our top 3 outside shooters per CAM. He ended up at 26%, he's way better than that percentage reflects. 

[8bucks 6,434]

Sorry if posted but this is a very good read on defense, what Woody plans to do with Race, TJD and Lander. 
 

https://www.heraldbulletin.com/sports/iu-notebook-woodson-says-hoosiers-not-done-exploring-portal/article_65ae5814-997b-11eb-9699-9fe115dcb60f.html

[Southside 1,914]

13 hours ago, Trish said:

I think Race has the potential to be a catch and shoot four. He hit a couple this season right? He honestly could have an NBA career if he add a 3 point shot. He reminds me of a Morgan in a way.  

I think that might be expecting too much. 20% 3pt, and 60% FT. 

I'd love to see him develop though if he can.

[Southside 1,914]

2 hours ago, 8bucks said:

Sorry if posted but this is a very good read on defense, what Woody plans to do with Race, TJD and Lander. 
 

https://www.heraldbulletin.com/sports/iu-notebook-woodson-says-hoosiers-not-done-exploring-portal/article_65ae5814-997b-11eb-9699-9fe115dcb60f.html

thank you. good read.

Here are some quotes.

Woodson on Race and TJD

Quote

“I’ve got to expand his game, just like I’ve got to expand the big fella (Trayce Jackson) Davis’ game,” Woodson said. “Both of those guys, they’ve got to be able to shoot out on the floor and feel good about shooting. I’m not saying Davis taking 3s, but I’ve got to get Race in position where he feels comfortable about shooting 3s, and it’s going to take some time to do that. This summer, once he gets back this week, we’re going to start working on some of those areas of his game because I think he can expand his game in those areas.”

 

 

On D

Quote

 

Woodson said his defensive philosophy will include some man, some zone. He said he came up as a hard-nosed man-to-man defense coach before, while coaching the Atlanta Hawks, a 2010 NBA Playoff Series with the Milwaukee Bucks changed his mind.

“Scott Skiles was coaching the Milwaukee Bucks, and I get down 3-2 with a close-out game in Milwaukee and I decided, ‘What the hell, let’s play a 2-3 zone,’” Woodson said. “I had never played a zone in the pros, and it caught Scott Skiles off guard. We ended up winning Game 6 and was able to come home and win Game 7 and get out of the series.”

Woodson said both assistants currently on his staff, Dane Fife and Kenya Hunter, have experience coaching zone defenses.

“I won’t be closed minded playing zone,” Woodson said. “You almost play it anyway, with the way the rules are set up in college, in your man-to-man defense. We’ll switch some in our man-to-man defense, but I’m a big proponent of guys who compete on the defensive end. If you don’t compete, you won’t play. That’s just my nature. That’s the way I’ve been because I know defense wins basketball games.”

 

On Lander

Quote

 

“He’s young and talented, I think,” Woodson said. “The thing that he possesses is he has enough speed to change the game up and down the floor, and his vision is pretty good as a young player. I’ve got to get his shot more comfortable for him where he feels good about shooting it and making it, and he’s got to get a little bit stronger physically.”

Woodson said he’s also impressed with Lander’s ability to change direction at high speed with the ball.

“He’s got to be willing to work because he’s got to be pushed in that area and taught how to play harder and learn the college game,” Woodson said. “I mean, he’s a young freshman, so he’s still got a long way to go, but I’m glad he committed to come back, and it gives me an opportunity to work with a young talent.”

 

 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,672]

22 hours ago, Southside said:

So..... trying to get an understanding of our new O and D schemes.

I've read that Woodson wants to play a 4-out / 1-in O, and somewhat familiar with it. Not seen much on our D scheme. 

Can anyone share what they've heard or read about our D? Also, an elaboration on the O would be appreciated too.

And just in general, what impact can we expect from Fife (to scheme). I know Fife is though of highly for D. 

And bonus, if we're running 4-out/1-in, is TJD going to be the in?

It's just defense... That's the scheme. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,963]

8 hours ago, Southside said:

thank you. good read.

Here are some quotes.

Woodson on Race and TJD

 

 

On D

On Lander

 

Refreshing. 
A coach looking to expand scoring with our best  player and front court, invested in growing their offensive games with shooting. A coach recognizing Lander’s speed and vision and talking about exactly what he needs to do to take the next step while publicly giving him confidence by talking about his talent. A coach talking about being flexible on D — not being closed minded! —  with man and zone and having staff experienced in zone to use situationally 

refreshing 

[Southside 1,914]

4 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Refreshing. 
A coach looking to expand scoring with our best  player and front court, invested in growing their offensive games with shooting. A coach recognizing Lander’s speed and vision and talking about exactly what he needs to do to take the next step while publicly giving him confidence by talking about his talent. A coach talking about being flexible on D — not being closed minded! —  with man and zone and having staff experienced in zone to use situationally 

refreshing 

yup.

i really wish he would add a "yes, and we're not going to suck at free throws this season either" at some point.