IUBB vs LA Tech Game Thread 11/25 8:30 pm BTN

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

21 hours ago, Old Friend said:

Doesn't matter to me one bit what should have happened.  I saw his 4 turnovers and heat check shots.  Can't have them.  

Aren't you constantly railing on about circumstances... and looking at the bigger picture... this seems contradictory tonight because it doesn't fit your narrative about Green.... 

And I thought you were actually coming around on him.... but nope, just waiting for a chance to pounce...

[Old Friend 8,598]

30 minutes ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

Aren't you constantly railing on about circumstances... and looking at the bigger picture... this seems contradictory tonight because it doesn't fit your narrative about Green.... 

And I thought you were actually coming around on him.... but nope, just waiting for a chance to pounce...

All I said was I was concerned because of what I saw.  Easy, tiger.  Let's not get out the accusatory brush and make assumptions.   His bigger picture has a history and you know that as well as I do.   I have been complimentary of him, but a hot first half turned into a lazy, heat check second half.  You saw that....right?   And you can think logically and see a red flag, right? 

Not saying it's a permanent condition; and once again....every sportswriter in town voiced the same concerns because THEY saw the same things.  It's not as if I'm the lonely opposition.  Because of his history, he gets a little closer scrutiny.  Just the way things are; and his better play doesn't erase his history, making him immune to criticism. 

You wouldn't by chance .....be waiting for a chance to pounce....on ME, would you?    Pot...meet Kettle.

[Old Friend 8,598]

1 hour ago, brumdog45 said:

In the end, "bad DeVonte" was 6 of 11 from the floor and 3 of 5 three.  I'd say that his couple of extra turnovers were balanced out by scoring 15 points on 11 shots.

This is where we disagree.  Nothing "balances" turnovers and bad shots.  Turnovers are - despite what Tom Crean said - NOT "part of the game."  Especially lazy ones.   He gave away at least 6 possessions.  In a close game against a good team, he can't do it.  Simple as that.  Neither can anyone else.  It's not limited to him; but he's been the one with the consistent problem over the last 3 years, so he's the most scrutinized for it.

[RaceToTheTop 29,290]

39 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

This is where we disagree.  Nothing "balances" turnovers and bad shots.  Turnovers are - despite what Tom Crean said - NOT "part of the game."  Especially lazy ones.   He gave away at least 6 possessions.  In a close game against a good team, he can't do it.  Simple as that.  Neither can anyone else.  It's not limited to him; but he's been the one with the consistent problem over the last 3 years, so he's the most scrutinized for it.

In a close game against good times, made shots and turnovers both matter.  And while 'lazy' turnovers are more frustrating than 'lack of talent' turnovers, they look the same on the stat sheet and the scoreboard.

[MoyeNeeded 3,073]

It just gets old listening to the 'good Devonte vs 'bad Devonte. It should just be Devonte. We know what we are going to get with him. The last 5 or 6 games last season until the 2nd half of this game was some of the best he has played for us. One bad half, in which just about everyone looked like crap, we've got 'bad Devonte! With RP out, he handled the ball alot more than we have suspected that he would. Even with Al on the floor, Green initiated a large portion of the offense in the second half. I would suspect that is not CAMs vision of what he plans for Green but what was needed for that game. Everyone on here envisioned him as our leading scorer and #1 option this season. Damnit, shooters are going to shoot! With exception of the to's his stat line was well within what we would hope.

[Old Friend 8,598]

6 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

In a close game against good times, made shots and turnovers both matter.  And while 'lazy' turnovers are more frustrating than 'lack of talent' turnovers, they look the same on the stat sheet and the scoreboard.

So heat check shots early in the shot clock when you have a lead are the same as missed shots?  Making a hero-type low percentage pass is the same as dribbling it off your foot?  Don't agree.  Errors of omission vs. errors of commission.  One man's opinion; and because of his history, the antennae are up just a little more for him.   That's life and what he created.  

[Bobman1 2,913]

Indiana will likely be a team that struggles to score the ball offensively at times this season. For me and the rest of the crowd that favors Devonte in the starting lineup, he provides solid defense while also adding a spark on the offensive end that no one really else provides. He’s arguably our best shooter, a great passer (at times), and adds an energetic juice to the offense that will be much needed. That’s the argument for throwing him in the starting 5.


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[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

12 hours ago, Old Friend said:

All I said was I was concerned because of what I saw.  Easy, tiger.  Let's not get out the accusatory brush and make assumptions.   His bigger picture has a history and you know that as well as I do.   I have been complimentary of him, but a hot first half turned into a lazy, heat check second half.  You saw that....right?   And you can think logically and see a red flag, right? 

Not saying it's a permanent condition; and once again....every sportswriter in town voiced the same concerns because THEY saw the same things.  It's not as if I'm the lonely opposition.  Because of his history, he gets a little closer scrutiny.  Just the way things are; and his better play doesn't erase his history, making him immune to criticism. 

That wasn't at all the point of my post... but it is exactly how you always post with the everybody is wrong if they don't agree with me style... you can't use 1 argument in 1 topic and then hypocritically use the opposite argument type in another.

As for what I saw... I saw Devonte play a good game, I saw him play very good defense, I saw him hit shots, I saw him provide a spark. And I will take a Heat Check shot at any time because he is our shooter and that is what shooters do (Shoot).

I will take the turnovers as well because he can make the passes nobody else can make, they are electric and on top of an assist for 2/3 points it also has repercussions for the game flow moving forward.

So you agree with every sportswriter? Maybe because they agree with you, because many (notice I didn't say "all" or "every") posters on this board disagree with the concern. No players game is immune to criticism, but that doesn't mean you have to be looking for a reason to criticize.

5 hours ago, Old Friend said:

So heat check shots early in the shot clock when you have a lead are the same as missed shots?  Making a hero-type low percentage pass is the same as dribbling it off your foot?  Don't agree.  Errors of omission vs. errors of commission.  One man's opinion; and because of his history, the antennae are up just a little more for him.   That's life and what he created.  

Who says all Heat Check shots are misses? But even if they were then yes they are the same.... unless time is winding down and we are trying to milk a lead to the finish line a missed shot is a missed shot... 

Making a turnover on an attempt for a "hero-type" pass vs dribbling off your foot both do the same thing, give the ball to the opponent... and in this guys opinion I would much rather the pass attempt than an unforced dribble off your foot, step out of bounds type turnover. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart 88,262]

I didn't listen to it live so I have no idea exactly how it was said but this is a post-game quote about Rob from Archie:  “I told him after the game, grab five Advil, get a piece of tape and tape them all over your body because maybe that’s the only thing we can do is tape it to him and he can absorb it, I don’t know,”

Archie feeling the same frustration with Rob's health that we are?

 

[JSHoosier 21,936]

People won't like it, but IMHO Green isn't a good enough shooter to take any shot he wants; he needs to be selective.  Problem there is the majority of his tune here says his decision making is questionable at best.

Most of his career he's been a turnover waiting to happen and prone to terrible decisions, a short stretch doesn't erase that.

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

44 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

People won't like it, but IMHO Green isn't a good enough shooter to take any shot he wants; he needs to be selective.  Problem there is the majority of his tune here says his decision making is questionable at best.

Most of his career he's been a turnover waiting to happen and prone to terrible decisions, a short stretch doesn't erase that.

Genuinely curious here.... what is a good enough shooter?

Is it stat based? Eye-Test Based? Something else?

Stat based - Devonte is a career 39% 3pt shooter (111-284). Steph Curry was a 41% 3pt shooter in college  (43.5% in the NBA).

Eye-Test - I sure as heck agree, I don't want Devonte taking the same shots I would be ok with Steph taking.

 

I know Curry is just 1 example, but I was trying to compare to possibly one of the best 3 point shooters ever who I don't think most would say isn't good enough to take any shot he wants....

To go more similar what about Ryan McMahon for UofL? Would you say he was a good enough shooter to take any shot he wants?

He is career 134-340 (39%). But watching him play when he pulls up I believe it is going in every time.... and rarely do I think, wow that was a bad shot.

 

[Brass Cannon 25,176]

I genuinely think Green needs a guy like Phinisee running the offense. To help him be in the position to take the best shots. 

[Old Friend 8,598]

4 hours ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

That wasn't at all the point of my post... but it is exactly how you always post with the everybody is wrong if they don't agree with me style... you can't use 1 argument in 1 topic and then hypocritically use the opposite argument type in another.

As for what I saw... I saw Devonte play a good game, I saw him play very good defense, I saw him hit shots, I saw him provide a spark. And I will take a Heat Check shot at any time because he is our shooter and that is what shooters do (Shoot).

I will take the turnovers as well because he can make the passes nobody else can make, they are electric and on top of an assist for 2/3 points it also has repercussions for the game flow moving forward.

So you agree with every sportswriter? Maybe because they agree with you, because many (notice I didn't say "all" or "every") posters on this board disagree with the concern. No players game is immune to criticism, but that doesn't mean you have to be looking for a reason to criticize.

Who says all Heat Check shots are misses? But even if they were then yes they are the same.... unless time is winding down and we are trying to milk a lead to the finish line a missed shot is a missed shot... 

Making a turnover on an attempt for a "hero-type" pass vs dribbling off your foot both do the same thing, give the ball to the opponent... and in this guys opinion I would much rather the pass attempt than an unforced dribble off your foot, step out of bounds type turnover. 

You and I watch basketball differently, then.  You're either a team player or you're all about "me."  And you either like fundamental basketball or "electric" basketball.  Electric doesn't generally work in college (more an NBA thing where ALL players are elite), "me" plays aren't generally winning plays (even though they can be fun to watch if they work), and "me" plays are generally selfish, even if....yes, some heat check shots DO go in.  That does happen.  But...doesn't make them good shots in a team game.   He plays for Indiana, not "Green." 

I think Green's better playing off the ball.  When he runs the show, he tends to make "me" plays more often than when he plays off the ball. Maybe it's systemic?

Late last season, Green eliminated the "me" plays and showed a few the other night.  If you're okay with that, you and I disagree.  I think "me" plays hurt teams and I've seen it for over 20+ years.  An experience thing,  Doesn't mean I'm pouncing, looking for reasons to criticize, or have some agenda.  Means I see it different;y than you do.  

In fact, you know the truth?  I am looking for reasons to compliment the kid. I saw old habits the other night and commented that it concerned me.  The HORROR!!!   That means I "pounced?"   Please.

You used the word "always" in your first sentence, but whatever.  Seems to me someone else is eager to pounce.  And that person DOES seem to have an agenda.  

Believe what you want about me.  On you.  Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for doing what you do for the board.

[VO5 8,340]

2 hours ago, JSHoosier said:

People won't like it, but IMHO Green isn't a good enough shooter to take any shot he wants; he needs to be selective.  Problem there is the majority of his tune here says his decision making is questionable at best.

Most of his career he's been a turnover waiting to happen and prone to terrible decisions, a short stretch doesn't erase that.

Green shot 41% from 3 last year and 3-5 in our last game. How good of a shooter does he need to be? This makes no sense to me unless you’re completely focusing on the “heat check” shots he takes. He’s our best scorer and playmaker, I can live with the bad plays. Clearly people have some sort of vendetta against him because they’re watching different games than I am. It’s weird

[WayneFleekHoosier 50,222]

I didn't listen to it live so I have no idea exactly how it was said but this is a post-game quote about Rob from Archie:  “I told him after the game, grab five Advil, get a piece of tape and tape them all over your body because maybe that’s the only thing we can do is tape it to him and he can absorb it, I don’t know,”
Archie feeling the same frustration with Rob's health that we are?
 

Should really only take 4 Advil and then you should only do that 4 times a day. But I’m with Archie. Haha


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[Old Friend 8,598]

1 hour ago, VO5 said:

Green shot 41% from 3 last year and 3-5 in our last game. How good of a shooter does he need to be? This makes no sense to me unless you’re completely focusing on the “heat check” shots he takes. He’s our best scorer and playmaker, I can live with the bad plays. Clearly people have some sort of vendetta against him because they’re watching different games than I am. It’s weird

It's not a vendetta at all.  You said you can live with the bad plays....   I don't know a successful coach who can live with bad plays.  Why - after being complimentary of him for several months - is pointing out that he had a bad half (as did about everyone who wrote about the game) and looked like the player he used to be for a few minutes a "vendetta?"   Serious question.   You see a different game than Coach Miller, too.  He mentioned the quick shots, bad angles, and sloppy half.  Why do I (or others) have a vendetta for mentioning the same things?

There's a difference between creating "electric" plays or taking them when they're there.  Green played much better late in the year last season because he stopped trying to create plays and let the game come.  Took advantage of opportunities rather than trying to make them.  The other night, for a half, he reverted back to trying to create them.  And pointing that out (which is all I did in my original post) is a "vendetta?"   Seems a little dramatic to me.  Anyone who believes that needs to read the things said about him that were complimentary and frankly be more realistic about what's being written.

The Big Ten is a league that's tough and many games are close.  Living with bad plays will get you beat.   If you take two teams with relatively equal talent; one takes advantage of opportunities, plays with solid fundamentals when they AREN't,  and takes care of the ball; the other tries to create opportunities and lives with bad plays while trying to be "electric," which team is going to win 99 times out of 100?   

Edit :  This is only my perspective, but I also said the whole team played poorly in the 2nd half.  Green and others.   And we let a team hang around.  We let a 23 point lead get down to 11.  I guess I don't understand at all why it's not okay to say that's....not okay.  We all want to win, right?  Then we can't take bad shots (and a quick 3 when you're up 16 when a team's coming back on you is a bad shot); you can't make passes through traffic or with bad angles because you're trying to be "electric."  You want Indiana to beat Ohio State?  Purdue?  We can't have a second half like that.  That's from Coach Miller...not me.

[WayneFleekHoosier 50,222]

Great teams need a “me” player. Someone has to get buckets when all else breaks down. All teams have one.

The question really is, is Devonte good enough to be that guy for us?? Not as a top ten team in the country, but he’s better at than most on our roster. I say, feed TJD early and often and let the offense flow from how teams adjust to that. But when we need 3s and buckets with shot clock waning, Devonte is probably our best bet.

Every good team in my opinion has a guy or usually better teams have 2 or 3 guys that can perform these duties.


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[Old Friend 8,598]

6 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Great teams need a “me” player. Someone has to get buckets when all else breaks down. All teams have one.

The question really is, is Devonte good enough to be that guy for us?? Not as a top ten team in the country, but he’s better at than most on our roster. I say, feed TJD early and often and let the offense flow from how teams adjust to that. But when we need 3s and buckets with shot clock waning, Devonte is probably our best bet.

Every good team in my opinion has a guy or usually better teams have 2 or 3 guys that can perform these duties.


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Agree, however my point is that player has to be selective and smart about when he looks to make plays for himself.  Doing it when it's available and trying to create it at the wrong time are two different things.   I LOVE when he plays aggressively.  I don't love when he (or others) play selfishly or lazily (bad passing angles, that wrap around pass that's been stolen 100 times in his career, etc).  All I'm saying.

[WayneFleekHoosier 50,222]

Agree, however my point is that player has to be selective and smart about when he looks to make plays for himself.  Doing it when it's available and trying to create it at the wrong time are two different things.   I LOVE when he plays aggressively.  I don't love when he (or others) play selfishly or lazily (bad passing angles, that wrap around pass that's been stolen 100 times in his career, etc).  All I'm saying.

Agree with this, too.


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[Josh 13,027]

Self awareness is a virtue.  My goodness some of these posts...