Inclined to Give Archie a Break

[Bailey7878]

Was Crean's program so bad that Archie, widely seen as a great coach by peers, is taking 2/3 years to build into something respectable? Were Crean's players and team perpetually overhyped? 
 
Or is Archie struggling to get more talented players (than what he had at Dayton) to buy in to his program? Is Archie wrong with his defense and offensive philosophies? 
 
How much is cleaning up the toxic spill that was Crean and Crean's culture and how much is Archie just hasn't figured out how to win in the Big10?

The only players who were ever actually coached by crean were green and morgan and i guess mcroberts. Im not counting davis since he rarely plays. Imo we ahould be seeing far more improvement at this point. I mean how awful can you be at threes? 10 for 55 recently. Do they not shoot 200 or 300 shots a day in the summer?

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[Chris007]

2 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

The only players who were ever actually coached by crean were green and morgan and i guess mcroberts. Im not counting davis since he rarely plays. Imo we ahould be seeing far more improvement at this point. I mean how awful can you be at threes? 10 for 55 recently. Do they not shoot 200 or 300 shots a day in the summer?

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I explained this but I will try to do a better job this time. Smith, Durham, Moore, Green, Davis were all recruited to play in a certain style of play and now have been thrown into a totally different style. Now as a coach do you change who you are to benefit this year's team but risk hurting future teams? Or do you try to get these guys to fit your style but risk losing some games that people don't think you should. 

And yes they do shoot at least that many if not more. Seen it with my own eyes. 

[Uspshoosier]

Yes, but not with this consistency or lack of effort.

Nah I’ve seen worse.


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[Bailey7878]

I explained this but I will try to do a better job this time. Smith, Durham, Moore, Green, Davis were all recruited to play in a certain style of play and now have been thrown into a totally different style. Now as a coach do you change who you are to benefit this year's team but risk hurting future teams? Or do you try to get these guys to fit your style but risk losing some games that people don't think you should. 
And yes they do shoot at least that many if not more. Seen it with my own eyes. 

Yes but they have not played in that style nor did crean ever teach them. After 1.5 years of archies system i would expect better results but thats just me

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[Josh]

4 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Nah I’ve seen worse.


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And did they keep their job?

[Chris007]

2 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

Yes but they have not played in that style nor did crean ever teach them. After 1.5 years of archies system i would expect better results but thats just me

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Well, I guess we will just have to keep trying to fit that square peg into the hole this year. I would expect changes after this season. 

[RatpigHoosier]

Yes, I’m sure that the coaching staff dissuades the players from shooting. Makes total sense.
As I stated in another thread, Rob is shooting at 40% from 3 as a freshman. He will continue to get better. Al is developing as a shooter. Does anyone really believe he should have been dubbed “shooter” when he arrived on campus? If they can continue to improve/develop and we can bring in a pure shooter we will be cooking with gasoline.
What is concerning to me is that CAM will bring in a pure shooter and message board experts will crucify the kid for not being a defensive whiz or not being able to drive the lane and dish off to the level they deem acceptable. Frustrating for sure.


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[Uspshoosier]

And did they keep their job?

Yes


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[Feathery]

1 hour ago, Uspshoosier said:

After year 3 in your opinion if he doesn’t make the tourney he should be fired? But if he makes the tourney let’s say squeaks in as an 11 seed and loses first game his job is safe just because he made the tourney?


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Yes, bc it shows an upward trajectory. No coach of IUBB should still have a job if they miss the NCAA tournament 3 years in a row.

In all honesty, after Archie gets his program established, full recruiting cycle, I’d say you can’t miss the NCAA tournament 2 years in a row. 

I do have concerns, but I do think Archie will get it done in the end. I fully expect some roster turnover this offseason. Bring in some transfers, to get some experience to go with the young talent. My gut tells me at least 5 new guys will be on the roster next year. Our recruiting class is sitting at 2 members right now. 

[Chris007]

1 minute ago, RatpigHoosier said:

Yes, I’m sure that the coaching staff dissuades the players from shooting. Makes total sense.
As I stated in another thread, Rob is shooting at 40% from 3 as a freshman. He will continue to get better. Al is developing as a shooter. Does anyone really believe he should have been dubbed “shooter” when he arrived on campus? If they can continue to improve/develop and we can bring in a pure shooter we will be cooking with gasoline.
What is concerning to me is that CAM will bring in a pure shooter and message board experts will crucify the kid for not being a defensive whiz or not being able to drive the lane and dish off to the level they deem acceptable. Frustrating for sure.


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I think this years team would be so much better if we had a McDermott or someone like that who can knock down shots. 

[Brass Cannon]

12 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I explained this but I will try to do a better job this time. Smith, Durham, Moore, Green, Davis were all recruited to play in a certain style of play and now have been thrown into a totally different style. Now as a coach do you change who you are to benefit this year's team but risk hurting future teams? Or do you try to get these guys to fit your style but risk losing some games that people don't think you should. 

And yes they do shoot at least that many if not more. Seen it with my own eyes. 

First time I have seen Crean accused of having a plan in recruiting 

[Chris007]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

First time I have seen Crean accused of having a plan in recruiting 

I think he looked for a certain type of player. 

[Josh]

5 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Yes


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Just for clarity, who are you comparing Archie to here?

[Brass Cannon]

4 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I think he looked for a certain type of player. 

Willing to play for him?

[Feathery]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

Just for clarity, who are you comparing Archie to here?

I think he is comparing him to some coach named Josh.

[Josh]

3 minutes ago, Feathery said:

I think he is comparing him to some coach named Josh.

Lol.  I'd never keep a job as a D1 coach.  Hopefully he's aiming higher than that.

[Uspshoosier]

Just for clarity, who are you comparing Archie to here?

Well Izzo lost to Santa Clara, Detroit, central Michigan and finished 7th in the B1G in his first year. I’m sure Sparty fans saw lack of effort in year 1 losing to 2 mid major in-state teams
Izzo lost an exhibition game to Marathon(I’m sure this place would of been fine with an exhibition loss in year 2) and Detroit again. 2 years in a row losing to a mid major in-state Had a stretch in the B1G where is lost 7 of 8.



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[Walking Boot of Doom]

This except I would gladly replace him with Al 

If I had to pick, I would go with Al as well, but we already struggle with rebounding and size.


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[IUrocker]

I can’t imagine how frustrated Archie is with this team. I just can’t put the blame on him until his roster is completely full of players that he recruited himself that want to come and play for him and the system he’s trying to build. Crean’s recruits came to IU to play a different style of basketball and are being told to play a way that doesn’t fit how they hoped and thought their college basketball careers would be like. Not only are they most likely not the types of players Archie would go out and get himself, but they probably aren’t enjoying themselves at all and don’t want to HAVE to play the way Archie wants or how hard he wants. All they thought they signed up for was to come in, chuck up a bunch of shots, and get a deflection here or there......I don’t think it’s Archies fault that his rugged tough-minded personality isn’t rubbing off on Crean’s kids (Juwan is of course an exception)...These kids are who they are and aren’t gonna care what type of personality Archie has. If they don’t want to have to all of a sudden be that way when they never were in the first place then they won’t do it...it’s just not the type of people they are. There’s nothing wrong with the type of people they are at all, don’t get me wrong, it’s just that they don’t fit how Archie is and what he wants to be able to accomplish. It’s going to be up to Archie to recruit those rugged tough-minded kids that fit his mold and want to jump at the opportunity to play for him and his system....and I believe he will do just that. 

[Walking Boot of Doom]

Izzo improved each season, had Michigan State in the Sweet Sixteen in year three and then went to three straight Final Fours and won a national title. I see no such trajectory with Archie.

Promise no one at MSU saw that trajectory with Izzo at the time either.

People keep bringing up Wright, Bennett, and K. They are the exceptions to the rule. Crean struggled his first few seasons and we all know how that ended.

Well, after the abysmal start, we won 2 B1G Titles outright and went to three Sweet Sixteens. Then it bottomed out completely. If Crean can get this program that far, Archie can absolutely do the same and better.



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