(2019) CG - Anthony Harris to North Carolina

[Chris007]

8 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Holtman has also had the best recruiting class in conference 2 out of 3 years. 

So we are getting smoked on the court and off

It's funny to hear fans want Holtman but if you talk to Holtman he didn't want the job because of those same fans. He didn't want a job where the fans are always looking for the next coach. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

8 hours ago, DChoosier said:

To be fair Holtman also went to the tourney his first two years, as opposed to our zero, and our “green grass side” has gone from saying Archie would get us in the tourney right away  to “Crean guys suck”, “it takes three years to learn the defense”, “Coach K went 0-1,000,000 when he started” etc.  I hope Archie makes things happen but so far I think HR would say Holtman has over achieved while  Archie has underachieved.  

Holtmann has done pretty well so far, but I don't think you can point to his success at Ohio State and assume that would've translated to IU. They were two very different situations. Archie has to make some improvements this year though, for sure. 

[Brass Cannon]

5 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

It's funny to hear fans want Holtman but if you talk to Holtman he didn't want the job because of those same fans. He didn't want a job where the fans are always looking for the next coach. 

I get that. In this case I am simply using Holtman as a counter to whole “It’s unrealistic to expect success in less than 3 or more years”. 

And I’m not looking for our next coach per se. But it’s a business and results need to be there. And to put it bluntly the results haven’t been there. 

[Capt. Crimson]

12 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

It's funny to hear fans want Holtman but if you talk to Holtman he didn't want the job because of those same fans. He didn't want a job where the fans are always looking for the next coach. 

This honestly hurts. Makes me feel like we're stuck in the middle. Recruits don't want that pressure either. 

[Capt. Crimson]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

but I don't think you can point to his success at Ohio State and assume that would've translated to IU. They were two very different situations.

Correct... Thad was in bad health. It's not that the team was garbage.

[Hillsdale87]

This honestly hurts. Makes me feel like we're stuck in the middle. Recruits don't want that pressure either. 

You think it's better at Kentucky or UNC? The pressure on coaches and recruits is the same at every blue blood. We had a top 10 class in 2018 and got a McD AA this year. I don't think kids are shying from the pressure.

Not every person is wired the same. Holtmann is making a ton of money coaching at a good basketball school without immense pressure because football is more important. Donovan did the same thing at Florida. He had chances to leave but didn't. Guys like Calipari, Coach K, etc. Would not be happy being second fiddle on campus. All very good/great coaches, just different styles and goals. Some guys like the pressure and all the focus on them, others don't. Not a problem either way, but it just means the IU job isn't a fit for everybody.


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[Brass Cannon]

It’s not the fans fault we started the season 12-2 and missed the tourney.  

 

[HinnyHoosier]

If people 100% expected Archie Miller to get us back to the tournament in year 1 then I applaud them for having high expectations, but they failed in the reality portion of the exam. Now that the reality of the state of the program has been presented to everyone, many continue to argue it and expect consistent high-level success out of thin air. This is simply not realistic. Miller stepped into a program that was nose-diving. To flip that into the vertical trajectory this fanbase expects (a trajectory we haven't had for damn near 30 years, mind you) in two years is ridiculous. And that's excluding the moral compass argument. Yes, no one in this program is blameless and that includes Archie Miller. But by the fanbase standard, we're setting him and anyone else up for failure. Holtmann was more or less smart to recognize that, even if he does sound like a chickens*** saying it.


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[Capt. Crimson]

2 minutes ago, Free Jurkin! said:

You think it's better at Kentucky or UNC? The pressure on coaches and recruits is the same at every blue blood. We had a top 10 class in 2018 and got a McD AA this year. I don't think kids are shying from the pressure.

Not every person is wired the same. Holtmann is making a ton of money coaching at a good basketball school without immense pressure because football is more important. Donovan did the same thing at Florida. He had chances to leave but didn't. Guys like Calipari, Coach K, etc. Would not be happy being second fiddle on campus. All very good/great coaches, just different styles and goals. Some guys like the pressure and all the focus on them, others don't. Not a problem either way, but it just means the IU job isn't a fit for everybody.


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I agree with you, but winning helps. We've got the insane fans and didn't have a lot to back it up. Doesn't help our cause a lot of the time. 

[Brass Cannon]

Just now, HinnyHoosier said:

If people 100% expected Archie Miller to get us back to the tournament in year 1 then I applaud them for having high expectations, but they failed in the reality portion of the exam. Now that the reality of the state of the program has been presented to everyone, many continue to argue it and expect consistent high-level success out of thin air. This is simply not realistic. Miller stepped into a program that was nose-diving. To flip that into the vertical trajectory this fanbase expects (a trajectory we haven't had for damn near 30 years, mind you) in two years is ridiculous. And that's excluding the moral compass argument. Yes, no one in this program is blameless and that includes Archie Miller. But by the fanbase standard, we're setting him and anyone else up for failure. Holtmann was more or less smart to recognize that, even if he does sound like a chickens*** saying it.


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Last year was year 2. 

Why can other coaches have success in year 1 and 2 and not us. 

Arizona was a mess when Miller took over. OSU had I think 7 scholarship players Holtmann first year. 

[HinnyHoosier]

Last year was year 2. 
Why can other coaches have success in year 1 and 2 and not us. 
Arizona was a mess when Miller took over. OSU had I think 7 scholarship players Holtmann first year. 

I excluded the moral compass argument. Arizona Miller obvious does a little more than tip toe that line.

I still think our program was headed toward hot garbage status more so than OSU at that point.

I'm not saying a tournament appearance this season was unreasonable because it wasn't, and should have happened. But the OVERALL expectations are off point. People were predicting our return to former glory by year three and it just isn't realistic for someone with a litany of things working against them.


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[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, HinnyHoosier said:

 

I excluded the moral compass argument. Arizona Miller obvious does a little more than tip toe that line.

I still think our program was headed toward hot garbage status more so than OSU at that point.

I'm not saying a tournament appearance this season was unreasonable because it wasn't, and should have happened. But the OVERALL expectations are off point. People were predicting our return to former glory by year three and it just isn't realistic for someone with a litany of things working against them.


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Expecting a tourney berth by year 3 is hardly demanding a return to glory.  If recruiting has stalled after year 2 missing bit what do you think is going to happen after year 3

[bigrod]

If there was a polar opposite to Crean's coaching style, Archie's comes pretty close.

As much as we hate it, this is a total culture change. I would rather have him take the time to build the foundation (something I felt Crean never did) and have sustained success.

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, bigrod said:

If there was a polar opposite to Crean's coaching style, Archie's comes pretty close.

As much as we hate it, this is a total culture change. I would rather have him take the time to build the foundation (something I felt Crean never did) and have sustained success.

If your ability to recruit goes because you took to long to have success goes then the sustained success can’t happen. 

Last year was bad and looked bad. Not only did we start 12-2 and miss the tourney but our 1 and domes draft stock plummeted. 

[HinnyHoosier]

Expecting a tourney berth by year 3 is hardly demanding a return to glory.  If recruiting has stalled after year 2 missing bit what do you think is going to happen after year 3

I just said it wasn't unreasonable for year 2, and it should have happened. I also said no one there was blameless. Year 2 was even a setback in many regards and now there is the extra pressure of redemption in year 3. Big plans rarely go perfectly to plan. No lie.

You've seen it just as I have. People expected elite 8 and final four by year three. A "tourney berth" is hardly the return to glory a majority of this base demands. We know what people want, and that's fine. Count me in. But when they want it is a poor expectation.


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[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, HinnyHoosier said:

 

I just said it wasn't unreasonable for year 2, and it should have happened. I also said no one there was blameless. Year 2 was even a setback in many regards and now there is the extra pressure of redemption in year 3. Big plans rarely go perfectly to plan. No lie.

You've seen it just as I have. People expected elite 8 and final four by year three. A "tourney berth" is hardly the return to glory a majority of this base demands. We know what people want, and that's fine. Count me in. But when they want it is a poor expectation.


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I don't recall anybody predicting/hoping for a FF before year 4 and that was contingent on getting Brooks. 

[HinnyHoosier]

I don't recall anybody predicting/hoping for a FF before year 4 and that was contingent on getting Brooks. 

It was there because I was incredulous when I saw it. I couldn't tell you when or who, but woof.

 

I just hope the extracurricular bs has run its course and the coaches can focus on coaching and the players can focus on playing. That's my goal for year 3. Hopefully the rest will take care of itself if that's the case.

 

 

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[JSHoosier]

1 hour ago, HinnyHoosier said:

 

I just said it wasn't unreasonable for year 2, and it should have happened. I also said no one there was blameless. Year 2 was even a setback in many regards and now there is the extra pressure of redemption in year 3. Big plans rarely go perfectly to plan. No lie.

You've seen it just as I have. People expected elite 8 and final four by year three. A "tourney berth" is hardly the return to glory a majority of this base demands. We know what people want, and that's fine. Count me in. But when they want it is a poor expectation.


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Who expected Elite 8 and Final Four by year 3?  Who? 

How about not mailing it in for almost 2 months, including when they had to have the W?  How about not being atrocious at the easiest shot in the game?

Making the tournament should be bare minimum expectations.  The trend of Miller's teams not shooting well and being awful from the foul line is what will hold him back, not fans who have no control over the program; he has to get that fixed, a trend that stretches his entire career is on coaching not players.  How about we expect him to fix that?

[ctown2grhoosier]

2 hours ago, Fkfootball1 said:

Holtman is a better coach than Miller. The guy will be a thorn in our side for years.


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 I agree 100%

[ctown2grhoosier]

3 hours ago, HinnyHoosier said:

If people 100% expected Archie Miller to get us back to the tournament in year 1 then I applaud them for having high expectations, but they failed in the reality portion of the exam. Now that the reality of the state of the program has been presented to everyone, many continue to argue it and expect consistent high-level success out of thin air. This is simply not realistic. Miller stepped into a program that was nose-diving. To flip that into the vertical trajectory this fanbase expects (a trajectory we haven't had for damn near 30 years, mind you) in two years is ridiculous. And that's excluding the moral compass argument. Yes, no one in this program is blameless and that includes Archie Miller. But by the fanbase standard, we're setting him and anyone else up for failure. Holtmann was more or less smart to recognize that, even if he does sound like a chickens*** saying it.


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Nose diving? Crean was one year removed from the sweet 16 and a Big Ten title when he was fired. CAMs 1st year he inherited a roster with Johnson, Morgan, Newkrik, Hartman, Smith, Durham, Green, etc. Most coaches would kill to start off with a roster with those type of players. I'll give him a pass in Year One because it takes time to implement his defensive system, but year 2 was a disaster! Coaches in the Big Ten ate him alive. Archie made a lot of bad decisions and adjustments. He did a really bad job coaching this team. After watching this year I'm done with being patient and having Blind Faith. In my opinion year 3 has to end with us making the tournament.