Morgan Ellison to miss rest of spring season

[Stuhoo]

11 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

The police more often than not decline to investigate rape. It’s a system designed prove the accused innocent regardless. 

 

 

In my experience? Not really. 

The police (good lord that's a broad generalized descriptor) all but always investigate credible sexual assault/rape allegations. 

Decline to prosecute? There has to be an expectation on the part of the District Attorney/State Attorney's office that a statutory violation can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a unanimous jury. And that produces a bunch of declinations; many of them appropriate declinations.

Doesn't mean the nefarious activity didn't happen; just that the prosecutor didn't think a jury would convict.

[moyemayhem]

1 minute ago, Stuhoo said:

 

In my experience? Not really. 

The police (good lord that's a broad generalized descriptor) all but always investigate credible sexual assault/rape allegations. 

Decline to prosecute? There has to be an expectation on the part of the District Attorney/State Attorney's office that a statutory violation can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a unanimous jury. And that produces a bunch of declinations; many of them appropriate declinations.

Doesn't mean the nefarious activity didn't happen; just that the prosecutor didn't think a jury would convict.

And this is why someone can be expelled from a university, while charges are never pressed.  A prosecutor may not think they can get a conviction, but the school doesn't need that same burden of proof.  If the school believes a student acted inappropriately and could be a danger if they remained on campus, they have every right to remove them.  Some would even say that it is their responsibility to maintain the safety of other students.

That doesn't mean mistakes aren't made, but the stakes also aren't nearly as high as they are in a criminal proceeding.

[Brass Cannon]

16 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

In my experience? Not really. 

The police (good lord that's a broad generalized descriptor) all but always investigate credible sexual assault/rape allegations. 

Decline to prosecute? There has to be an expectation on the part of the District Attorney/State Attorney's office that a statutory violation can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a unanimous jury. And that produces a bunch of declinations; many of them appropriate declinations.

Doesn't mean the nefarious activity didn't happen; just that the prosecutor didn't think a jury would convict.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/27/opinion/rape-victim-advocates.html

while I was wrong about how often it happens. The problem is real. 

[Brass Cannon]

http://m.startribune.com/ignoring-rape-complaints-when-police-fail-to-protect-and-serve/489385841/

[Walking Boot of Doom]

And this is why someone can be expelled from a university, while charges are never pressed.  A prosecutor may not think they can get a conviction, but the school doesn't need that same burden of proof.  If the school believes a student acted inappropriately and could be a danger if they remained on campus, they have every right to remove them.  Some would even say that it is their responsibility to maintain the safety of other students.
That doesn't mean mistakes aren't made, but the stakes also aren't nearly as high as they are in a criminal proceeding.

This


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[Hoosierfan2017]

12 minutes ago, moyemayhem said:

And this is why someone can be expelled from a university, while charges are never pressed.  A prosecutor may not think they can get a conviction, but the school doesn't need that same burden of proof.  If the school believes a student acted inappropriately and could be a danger if they remained on campus, they have every right to remove them.  Some would even say that it is their responsibility to maintain the safety of other students.

That doesn't mean mistakes aren't made, but the stakes also aren't nearly as high as they are in a criminal proceeding.

Would you feel like the stakes were high if it was your own kid being falsely accused?

[Walking Boot of Doom]

This isn't true at all. There are several reasons why a woman would make a false rape accusation. 
Guy hooks up with girl, guy ghosts her, girl feels used and looks for revenge. 
Girl hooks up with guy when she has a boyfriend, boyfriend finds out, girl needs a way out of it. 
Believing women by default is an incredibly dangerous philosophy. I hope you're never falsely accused of a crime. 

I hope I’m not either, but I am aware of the risks of engaging in certain behavior.

Not believing women is even more dangerous. Rape culture exists for a reason.

There are reasons that you could imagine, but they’re all highly unlikely. You’re assuming the victim determined that they wanted to ruin a young man’s life for a petty act. That’s a wild assumption.


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[Hoosierfan2017]

17 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

I hope I’m not either, but I am aware of the risks of engaging in certain behavior.

Not believing women is even more dangerous. Rape culture exists for a reason.

There are reasons that you could imagine, but they’re all highly unlikely. You’re assuming the victim determined that they wanted to ruin a young man’s life for a petty act. That’s a wild assumption.


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It still happens, though. The point isn't that every woman does this, it's that any woman could. Automatically believing the woman by default completely casts away the presumption of innocence. That's not a road I want society to go down. 

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

It still happens, though. The point isn't that every woman does this, it's that any woman could. Automatically believing the woman by default completely casts away the presumption of innocence. That's not a road I want society to go down. 

Well as soon as we as a society actually start demanding these accusations get a fair and impartial investigation. And stop making up excuses like “she was drunk”. Then maybe that belief will go away

[Hoosierfan2017]

12 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Well as soon as we as a society actually start demanding these accusations get a fair and impartial investigation. And stop making up excuses like “she was drunk”. Then maybe that belief will go away

Do you consider it sexual assault when a sober woman has sex with a drunk man? Or when a drunk woman and a drunk man have sex with each other? Did they sexually assault each other? Or how about if the man is blacked out but the woman has only had a few drinks?

[Stuhoo]

No one should be “automatically believing” an accuser or the accused.

i think the extremes of this discussion need to remember that there is no way to engineer a perfect system - only to try to improve and monitor the system as society and as the law constantly evolves.

Our forefathers did not pledge to “...form a perfect union...”; instead, they pledged to “form a more perfect union...”, one that moves that way as the country changes.

 

[Brass Cannon]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Do you consider it sexual assault when a sober woman has sex with a drunk man? Or when a drunk woman and a drunk man have sex with each other? Did they sexually assault each other? Or how about if the man is blacked out but the woman has only had a few drinks?

How drunk was the man was he still physically capable of resisting?  And did he feel violated afterwards? 

Two drunk people IDK would be hard to argue mutual rape. 

If a man is blacked out and a woman does something to him. Then yes that’s rape. 

She was drunk is not an excuse what’s so hard to understand about that?

[Hoosierfan2017]

7 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

How drunk was the man was he still physically capable of resisting?  And did he feel violated afterwards? 

Two drunk people IDK would be hard to argue mutual rape. 

If a man is blacked out and a woman does something to him. Then yes that’s rape. 

She was drunk is not an excuse what’s so hard to understand about that?

I don't think anyone is saying that a girl being drunk is an excuse. But, often times with college hookups both parties have been drinking. If both are similarly intoxicated, how do you handle that? 

[mdn82]

It still happens, though. The point isn't that every woman does this, it's that any woman could. Automatically believing the woman by default completely casts away the presumption of innocence. That's not a road I want society to go down. 

To be fair every person who is arrested typically has an uphill battle regardless of the accusers gender. That’s just the way the judicial process is set up. From the accuser to the police officer making the report. It’s not just in rape cases this occurs.


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[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I don't think anyone is saying that a girl being drunk is an excuse. But, often times with college hookups both parties have been drinking. If both are similarly intoxicated, how do you handle that? 

Depends on the circumstance. If one is unconscious without a doubt rape. Or if she clearly fights it

[HoosierX]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

It still happens, though. The point isn't that every woman does this, it's that any woman could. Automatically believing the woman by default completely casts away the presumption of innocence. That's not a road I want society to go down. 

But she wasn't automatically believed, a school panel reviewed the case.

It seems as if your point is that the few cases of false accusations should lead to schools having the same burden of proof as court systems.  IMHO that is bogus as getting kicked out of school is nothing compared to 15 years in jail.

I'll see your "what if it was your son being falsely accused" and raise with what if it was your daughter being raped?

Good riddance Morgan Ellison.

[Hoosierfan2017]

8 minutes ago, HoosierX said:

But she wasn't automatically believed, a school panel reviewed the case.

It seems as if your point is that the few cases of false accusations should lead to schools having the same burden of proof as court systems.  IMHO that is bogus as getting kicked out of school is nothing compared to 15 years in jail.

I'll see your "what if it was your son being falsely accused" and raise with what if it was your daughter being raped?

Good riddance Morgan Ellison.

If it was my daughter I would want her to go to the police so the guy could be put behind bars. My point all along has been that schools shouldn't be handling sexual assault allegations.  

[Stuhoo]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

If it was my daughter I would want her to go to the police so the guy could be put behind bars. My point all along has been that schools shouldn't be handling sexual assault allegations.  

 

Completely fair. 

I feel as though (as commonly happens) to a certain extent in this thread the divergent opinions are arguing different points. 

I'm guessing all can agree that going to the police would be the first step of almost all. But, I can tell you with certainty that there is often a significant, unavoidable time period between an allegation to the police and a possible arrest. For instance, this can happen while records are being requested, lawyers get court delays, and witnesses who may be critical are located and interviewed,; sometimes those witnesses (even those who have no legal exposure) will only speak with the police with their attorney present, and that attorney is in the midst of a four week unrelated jury trial.

In the mean time, the school can take action to ameliorate the situation. A school does not have a long list of remedies, but if they get a credible allegation and do nothing while the police investigate, they've got a big problem if the accused strikes again.

 

 

[Brass Cannon]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

If it was my daughter I would want her to go to the police so the guy could be put behind bars. My point all along has been that schools shouldn't be handling sexual assault allegations.  

Some women don’t want to:

Be outed publically

Fear reprisals

Face their abuser

Which are all perfectly fair sentiments. Especially considering even a guilty verdict doesn’t mean much when it comes to sentencing. For perspective IU just punished a guy harsher than the state of Alaska. Guy went free despite being found guilty. 

[cthomas]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

If it was my daughter I would want her to go to the police so the guy could be put behind bars. My point all along has been that schools shouldn't be handling sexual assault allegations.  

If a crime has been committed, and it seems in this case one was, is there not an obligation to go to the police? Failure to do so allows a predator to be free to do the same thing to others. I believe in due process and finding justice to the best of the systems ability.