Three Year Rebuild?

[Bailey7878]

Archie needs to land five star talent, if not Romeo then absolutely starting in 2019. TJD will be a big test.

Well the I won't be upset if we don't get Romeo talk has already started. I wonder if we whiff in 2019 if we will hear we didn't need tjd or Brooks. It's amazing how when we miss on a 5 star al of a sudden he wasn't that good , etc talk starts.


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[Uspshoosier]

Well the I won't be upset if we don't get Romeo talk has already started. I wonder if we whiff in 2019 if we will hear we didn't need tjd or Brooks. It's amazing how when we miss on a 5 star al of a sudden he wasn't that good , etc talk starts.


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Well maybe the I won’t be upset if we don’t get Romeo talk has already started because some people have a different opinion then you and actually won’t be upset. Obviously you will be upset but others might have a different view (crazy concept). As far as whiffing on 2019 TJD and Brooks I guess that would depend on who was brought in wouldn’t it? If we landed Trendon and Hurt( no I’m not going to bet a steak dinner) would we of whiffed on the in state guys. A lot of time before 2019 gets here. Personally I don’t get worked up on “whiffing” on any kid I leave that up to others that are worried about the number next to kids name instead of if the kid fits into the program


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[Hardwood83]

11 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

Crean left the program in a mess. He got a couple lucky years because of zeller and syracuse throwing Bryant into his lap. He never rebuilt anything.

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Crean left the program with a flawed roster (after 3 guys declared early), but I don't think it's accurate to call it "a mess". The foundation is great, all the issues were tied to his personality.  

The guy won a lot of big games, brought in a few major talents and developed a few others. Problem was he was maddeningly inconsistent, but it's silly to call him "lucky".     

[bigrod]

8 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

Well the I won't be upset if we don't get Romeo talk has already started. I wonder if we whiff in 2019 if we will hear we didn't need tjd or Brooks. It's amazing how when we miss on a 5 star al of a sudden he wasn't that good , etc talk starts.


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Cal me crazy, but I still think there is a good chance Romeo comes to IU .I'll be disappointed if Romeo decides to go elsewhere, but I also remember all the "experts" saying CAM was coming into it too late to get him. Let's face it though, as much talk as there is about closing the deal, etc., no one can force a kid to come to a school. You can only show them the the reasons why you think it is best for them. Quite frankly, it's possible that our program is a year or two away from being that for Romeo. For that reason, it would be truly baffling to me if he decided to go anchors down.

[Bailey7878]

Crean left the program with a flawed roster (after 3 guys declared early), but I don't think it's accurate to call it "a mess". The foundation is great, all the issues were tied to his personality.  
The guy won a lot of big games, brought in a few major talents and developed a few others. Problem was he was maddeningly inconsistent, but it's silly to call him "lucky".     

He had a flawed roster and couldn't even make the ncaa with these so called nba talent players. He was a terrible coach plain and simple.

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[Bailey7878]

Crean left the program with a flawed roster (after 3 guys declared early), but I don't think it's accurate to call it "a mess". The foundation is great, all the issues were tied to his personality.  
The guy won a lot of big games, brought in a few major talents and developed a few others. Problem was he was maddeningly inconsistent, but it's silly to call him "lucky".     

Without zeller he would not have lasted four years. Victor developed himself.

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[Hardwood83]

Just now, Bailey7878 said:

He had a flawed roster and couldn't even make the ncaa with these so called nba talent players. He was a terrible coach plain and simple.

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Sure, and that got him fired. Doesn't mean the program is a mess. 

[Bailey7878]

Cal me crazy, but I still think there is a good chance Romeo comes to IU .I'll be disappointed if Romeo decides to go elsewhere, but I also remember all the "experts" saying CAM was coming into it too late to get him. Let's face it though, as much talk as there is about closing the deal, etc., no one can force a kid to come to a school. You can only show them the the reasons why you think it is best for them. Quite frankly, it's possible that our program is a year or two away from being that for Romeo. For that reason, it would be truly baffling to me if he decided to go anchors down.

I think we can get him to but people are already setting up their narrative if we don't. A 5 star player who suddenly isn't that great because we lost out on him. They do it every time we lose out.

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[Bailey7878]

Sure, and that got him fired. Doesn't mean the program is a mess. 

Have you watched Johnson and newkirk? They aren't any better than the day they first came . That's on crean.

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[mdn82]

Given the high rate of turnover, yes, it still felt like we were rebuilding.  

Can you honestly not see we weren’t abnormal in that area? There are a ton of transfers every year. Like I said, 95%.


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[mdn82]

Crean left the program in a mess. He got a couple lucky years because of zeller and syracuse throwing Bryant into his lap. He never rebuilt anything.

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He didn’t leave it in a mess. After Sampson left, that was a mess. I don’t even know what that means on “lucky years”. He put in the time to get them both. He trained them. That isn’t luck no matter how inadequate of a coach he is for Indiana University. Move on. His time is over. But the current state isn’t a mess. It’s 3 players that decided their time on campus was over due to having options of Professional basketball. Happens every year. Crean wasn’t ready for it. Part of the reason he is no longer here. Roster Management is probably the biggest reason he is no longer head coach. He didn’t leave us with sanctions. We have kids that can play and some that are struggling with the transition. Happens


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[Bailey7878]

He didn’t leave it in a mess. After Sampson left, that was a mess. I don’t even know what that means on “lucky years”. He put in the time to get them both. He trained them. That isn’t luck no matter how inadequate of a coach he is for Indiana University. Move on. His time is over. But the current state isn’t a mess. It’s 3 players that decided their time on campus was over due to having options of Professional basketball. Happens every year. Crean wasn’t ready for it. Part of the reason he is no longer here. Roster Management is probably the biggest reason he is no longer head coach. He didn’t leave us with sanctions. We have kids that can play and some that are struggling with the transition. Happens


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Every year was a rebuild. Constant player turnover.

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[BGleas]

33 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

A lot of time before 2019 gets here. Personally I don’t get worked up on “whiffing” on any kid I leave that up to others that are worried about the number next to kids name instead of if the kid fits into the program


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I understand what you're saying, and it's not necessary to have a roster full of top guys to win, of course. You can also get good players even when you whiff on higher rated guys. But, the problem with "whiffing" on guys is that you're not landing your targets, and that shows a problem with the program, and also creates a scenario where you're more likely to end up with rosters that don't mesh well. 

I think we saw that with Crean the last few years. He clearly brought in some decently rated guys and some diamonds in the rough that exceeded expectations, but it's also clear that he quite often the last few years whiffed on his primary targets and had to go to options B, C, D, etc., which created a roster that didn't always fit together. 

What I'm saying is that I get not being overly concerned with the ranking of the players we're getting, but to me it is a problem if we're consistently missing the guys we target (regardless of their ranking). 

[GloryDays]

I think we can get him to but people are already setting up their narrative if we don't. A 5 star player who suddenly isn't that great because we lost out on him. They do it every time we lose out.

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Langford could walk into Cook hall right now in the middle of workouts and instantly be the best player there.He's that good.
Has to be the best player this state has produced since Eric Gordon.Anyone who starts that narrative is just a homer without any knowledge of the game.
Someones going to get a great player and I still think its us.

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[Uspshoosier]

I understand what you're saying, and it's not necessary to have a roster full of top guys to win, of course. You can also get good players even when you whiff on higher rated guys. But, the problem with "whiffing" on guys is that you're not landing your targets, and that shows a problem with the program, and also creates a scenario where you're more likely to end up with rosters that don't mesh well. 
I think we saw that with Crean the last few years. He clearly brought in some decently rated guys and some diamonds in the rough that exceeded expectations, but it's also clear that he quite often the last few years whiffed on his primary targets and had to go to options B, C, D, etc., which created a roster that didn't always fit together. 
What I'm saying is that I get not being overly concerned with the ranking of the players we're getting, but to me it is a problem if we're consistently missing the guys we target (regardless of their ranking). 

I hear you. Keep in mind CAM’s top targets tracked during the evaluations periods in April and July when he took the job were Romeo, RP, Race, and Jerome Hunter. These were the recruits that if you followed the staffs movements during that time would be considered in my opinion their top targets. He landed 3 of 4 and is in great position for Romeo. You could argue Garland should be on here as well but as much time as CAM and staff put into locking down RP I would argue they viewed him as a top target along with Garland


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[Bailey7878]

Langford could walk into Cook hall right now in the middle of workouts and instantly be the best player there.He's that good.
Has to be the best player this state has produced since Eric Gordon.Anyone who starts that narrative is just a homer without any knowledge of the game.
Someones going to get a great player and I still think its us.

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I agree.

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[mdn82]

Every year was a rebuild. Constant player turnover.

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Every team in the country is rebuilding then almost every year.


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[Str8Hoosiers]

I think somewhere in this discussion there is a breakdown/misunderstanding....

There is a pretty big difference between rebuilding and reloading.

Constant Player Turnover is many many teams (especially the top teams with the Top Talent). But I would say that is more reloading than rebuilding. 

If the entire team left and all that remains is walk-ons etc then you have a rebuild in front of you.

If you get a new coach it is a rebuild in the sense of starting the new regime from scratch (unless you keep the same system in place i.e. Gard/Ryan or even Padgett/Pitino to an extent) even if the remaining players are good.

Reloading can be done every year with at least some success.

Rebuilding takes multiple years depending on how far gone the program is being rebuilt from.

[BGleas]

21 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

I hear you. Keep in mind CAM’s top targets tracked during the evaluations periods in April and July when he took the job were Romeo, RP, Race, and Jerome Hunter. These were the recruits that if you followed the staffs movements during that time would be considered in my opinion their top targets. He landed 3 of 4 and is in great position for Romeo. You could argue Garland should be on here as well but as much time as CAM and staff put into locking down RP I would argue they viewed him as a top target along with Garland


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Absolutely! My post wasn't meant as a criticism of Archie, just a comment in general on whiffing on guys, etc. Given the late start, I think Archie did a pretty remarkable job with the '18 and it becomes almost unbelievable if he lands Langford. 

I think lost in the Garland/Langford hype is how amazing it really is that in less than 4 months on the job Archie targeted and landed RP, Anderson, Hunter and Foorrester. 

[HoosierTrav]

16 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

I agree.

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From what I've seen, I don't think anyone on this entire board disagrees that Romeo would be our best player from day one.... Some of us just disagree that he's actually going to play at Indiana based on the information we have up until now.... We also seem to have differing opinions on whether the sky would be falling if he didn't come here.