Game Thread: Howard, Sunday 8pm BTN

[JHoosier914 1,187]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

No bashing, it’s  a good discussion. 

Im curious who you would rather develop? By develop, I’m assuming you mean the underclassmen guards? So it’s between Green, CuJo and Al. There’s certainly room for two of those three to play big minutes, along with RoJo and Newkirk. Out of the guards I think CuJo is clearly the odd man out, I also really like Al, but don’t think he’s a point guard at all. 

We can certainly agree to disagree, but if I’m Archie of the current guards I’m probably investing the most time in Green. IMO he’s got the highest ceiling. 

With that said, this team desperately needs an upgrade at guard. Our guards are not good as a group. 

I guess I'm not thinking in the traditional 'point guard' sense as you.  RoJo ran the point last year and I honestly like him better at that spot than a consistent 2 guard.  OF COURSE he is our #1 two-guard, but in a pinch, I'd rather have a bigger lineup with DD/Smith/Freddy or DD/Smith/Moore than just putting our a 3 guard set for the heck of it.  In this case, I'd like Al (as he is clearly a 4 year guy, barring devastating injury or transfer) and RoJo.  make way for the TRUE point guards of the future in Phinisee and (possibly) Garland.

[JHoosier914 1,187]

Just now, JHoosier914 said:

I guess I'm not thinking in the traditional 'point guard' sense as you.  RoJo ran the point last year and I honestly like him better at that spot than a consistent 2 guard.  OF COURSE he is our #1 two-guard, but in a pinch, I'd rather have a bigger lineup with DD/Smith/Freddy or DD/Smith/Moore than just putting our a 3 guard set for the heck of it.  In this case, I'd like Al (as he is clearly a 4 year guy, barring devastating injury or transfer) and RoJo.  make way for the TRUE point guards of the future in Phinisee and (possibly) Garland.

but yes....this team is NOT good at the guard spot under Archie's new system. 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

22 minutes ago, JHoosier914 said:

The ONLY negative side I see to Green besides his temper is that he seems to want to be "the man."  I'm not sure he will ever be that at Indiana..  Could honestly see him transferring to be the man at a smaller school, though, as much as I hate to say it.

 

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think that’s a good thing, at least with the current roster. I don’t see anyone else trying to take control and lead. 

At this level of ball we need a team full of players that want to be "the man."  It's an attitude that takes a good program to a great program.  That doesn't mean that those players get into the game and try to show they're "the man."  It means that they go at each other in practice, in the classroom, chasing coeds, walking to the door... they compete.  We lack that with this current roster.

Most of these players have never been called out like they were after the ISU game.  Different people respond in different ways; some let it go in one ear and out the other (they'll transfer), some get pissed and fight but without course (they'll eventually get it but it might take time), and some get pissed and fall into line to truly learn (they'll lead the team). 

If you spend enough time with a group of people there will always be a ranking of sorts.  When you have a team that is capable of being good leaders and followers you'll see more success.  I believe what CAM is sorting out is who is willing to learn and fight.

There were interesting lineups tonight with 4 freshmen/sophomores and Johnson.  I saw more determination from Johnson than in the last few games.  I believe CAM used some of these lineups to reward those that wanted it (Smith/Durham) with those who have yet to get it (Johnson/Newkirk/Jones).  It's a learning process for the coach just as much as with the players.  The thing I'm holding onto through this season is we have a coach and staff who walk the walk more than talk the talk.

[BGleas 7,903]

1 minute ago, JHoosier914 said:

I guess I'm not thinking in the traditional 'point guard' sense as you.  RoJo ran the point last year and I honestly like him better at that spot than a consistent 2 guard.  OF COURSE he is our #1 two-guard, but in a pinch, I'd rather have a bigger lineup with DD/Smith/Freddy or DD/Smith/Moore than just putting our a 3 guard set for the heck of it.  In this case, I'd like Al (as he is clearly a 4 year guy, barring devastating injury or transfer) and RoJo.  make way for the TRUE point guards of the future in Phinisee and (possibly) Garland.

I agree on not liking a 3-guard lineup, that’s partly what got Crean in so much trouble over the years, but with this roster and some of the injuries, that’s where we’re at. RoJo is not a point guard, he’s terrible in that role, not nearly a good enough ball handler and not athletic enough. 

If it was me, I’d be grooming Green to be the point guard. Things just happen when he’s involved. Ever in limited play last year, when things would Grindr to a halt, he’d come in and make things happen, and we have to remember he’s still a really young player. Again, assuming an improvement in experience and maturity (limiting some of the crazy passes and sometimes trying to do too much) I think he’s our best option as a point guard. 

[JHoosier914 1,187]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

 

At this level of ball we need a team full of players that want to be "the man."  It's an attitude that takes a good program to a great program.  That doesn't mean that those players get into the game and try to show they're "the man."  It means that they go at each other in practice, in the classroom, chasing coeds, walking to the door... they compete.  We lack that with this current roster.

Most of these players have never been called out like they were after the ISU game.  Different people respond in different ways; some let it go in one ear and out the other (they'll transfer), some get pissed and fight but without course (they'll eventually get it but it might take time), and some get pissed and fall into line to truly learn (they'll lead the team). 

If you spend enough time with a group of people there will always be a ranking of sorts.  When you have a team that is capable of being good leaders and followers you'll see more success.  I believe what CAM is sorting out is who is willing to learn and fight.

There were interesting lineups tonight with 4 freshmen/sophomores and Johnson.  I saw more determination from Johnson than in the last few games.  I believe CAM used some of these lineups to reward those that wanted it (Smith/Durham) with those who have yet to get it (Johnson/Newkirk/Jones).  It's a learning process for the coach just as much as with the players.  The thing I'm holding onto through this season is we have a coach and staff who walk the walk more than talk the talk.

Wow.  Love this post.  Very wise insight that I hadn't grasped.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I agree on not liking a 3-guard lineup, that’s partly what got Crean in so much trouble over the years, but with this roster and some of the injuries, that’s where we’re at. RoJo is not a point guard, he’s terrible in that role, not nearly a good enough ball handler and not athletic enough. 

If it was me, I’d be grooming Green to be the point guard. Things just happen when he’s involved. Ever in limited play last year, when things would Grindr to a halt, he’d come in and make things happen, and we have to remember he’s still a really young player. Again, assuming an improvement in experience and maturity (limiting some of the crazy passes and sometimes trying to do too much) I think he’s our best option as a point guard. 

I can see Green having a very up and down year with CAM yanking and getting on him when he gets into his flashy play.  It was painfully obvious that Green, Durham, Smith, and Davis found the holes in the zone and attempted to exploit them far better than Johnson and Newkirk.  Green has the potential to run point but needs to be kept on a leash until his play becomes more consistent.  He has "it" more than Newkirk.

[BGleas 7,903]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

I can see Green having a very up and down year with CAM yanking and getting on him when he gets into his flashy play.  It was painfully obvious that Green, Durham, Smith, and Davis found the holes in the zone and attempted to exploit them far better than Johnson and Newkirk.  Green has the potential to run point but needs to be kept on a leash until his play becomes more consistent.  He has "it" more than Newkirk.

Completely agree. He’s going to have a lot of ups and downs this year. Who knows how it will play out. But I could see him being a guy that potentially butts heads with Archie a bit, but if they both stick with it, I could see it being one of those things where it all comes together for him as a senior. He’s got the skill and athleticism, it’s  a matter of his b-ball IQ and attitude.  

[Old Friend 8,389]

I was astonished at how poorly our seniors played relative to how well I thought our younger players played.  Numbers don't necessarily help my point; but I didn't see the kind of leadership or energy needed from Johnson and Newkirk tonight.  Especially early when I thought Johnson looked disinterested.  He was better later, as was Newkirk.  I love the length of Moore and Smith; and Durham looks to be a potentially great player when it's all said and done.

[JHoosier914 1,187]

7 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I can see Green having a very up and down year with CAM yanking and getting on him when he gets into his flashy play.  It was painfully obvious that Green, Durham, Smith, and Davis found the holes in the zone and attempted to exploit them far better than Johnson and Newkirk.  Green has the potential to run point but needs to be kept on a leash until his play becomes more consistent.  He has "it" more than Newkirk.

 

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Completely agree. He’s going to have a lot of ups and downs this year. Who knows how it will play out. But I could see him being a guy that potentially butts heads with Archie a bit, but if they both stick with it, I could see it being one of those things where it all comes together for him as a senior. He’s got the skill and athleticism, it’s  a matter of his b-ball IQ and attitude.  

Both of these are very true!  This is 100% why I love this board.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Completely agree. He’s going to have a lot of ups and downs this year. Who knows how it will play out. But I could see him being a guy that potentially butts heads with Archie a bit, but if they both stick with it, I could see it being one of those things where it all comes together for him as a senior. He’s got the skill and athleticism, it’s  a matter of his b-ball IQ and attitude.  

As much as it'll effect wins and losses, I'm okay with Green "learning" in this way from CAM.  There will come a time where Green realizes what hes' being taught and the light will come on.  If it takes this year of butting heads with CAM to get it it'll be worth it.  He'll be the first player in line over next summer telling Phinisee, Anderson, and Hunter (possibly Garland and Romeo) to come and take his starting spot or minutes.  It'll make for an environment where they're competing to determine the pecking order and not just going through the motions.

[Brass Cannon 24,816]

I do like our young guys getting more minutes.  A very good thing because we will need at least 4 of the underclass men to be real cogs in the system next year even if we get Garland and Romeo. 

[Magnanimous 4,603]

A few thoughts....

1) It's comforting to know this program will never not know how to break a 2-3 zone. This system looks very promising, and should elevate this program back towards the top when the right players come here. You can tell Miller knows what he is doing.

2) There will be a number of hurdles throughout the season, but the one that will hurt the most is the lack of a go-to guy to take over when the game is tight. He's just not on this roster right now.

3) Other than Davis and Moore, this team has no size. It'll be interesting to watch this offense function once Coach Miller gets his big boy wings in Bloomington.

4) Having said all that, it's not like the guys on this team have forgotten how to play basketball, and I think once they get a feel for this system some of what's lacking from our upperclassmen may start to come back to them. I think this team is going to trend up for most of the year, but where that destination is only time will tell.

[HoosierDYT 1,748]

After watching this game and the coaching specifically I wanted to share a few thoughts / observations:

 

1) Anyone still blaming CAM solely for the poor performances doesn’t know basketball. The seniors in particular play with zero confidence and the offensive system actually set up great looks - we just couldn’t convert at times.

 

2) To echo what people have been saying on here, I LOVED what smith and Durham did tonight. Would love to see them take more minutes from upperclassmen as the year goes on

 

3) This is probably my biggest point and plays a big part of our troubles imo. Archie’s pack line D works really well if all five players know it inside and out. However, if one player doesn’t, the system is entirely ineffective. If you watch DD, he hedges on screens, but takes forever to get back to his man. This results in open threes, as well as offensive rebounds for the opposing teams. Personally, I feel as the year goes on this issue will get better and better...but it’ll be a slow process

 

4) As of now, my ideal starting 5 would be: Green, Durham, Smith, Morgan, Davis. Durham and Green have the most “dog” in them from what I can tell

 

 

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[Whoozhers 3,690]

Free Throws aren’t FREE.
If the object was to graze the front edge of the rim in the same exact spot, time and time again on free throws.... De’Ron wins hands down.
Here’s to hoping that is the last we see of such poor free throw shooting from this team.


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[HinnyHoosier 4,987]

At this point in the young season, Davis is as close as the go-to guy as we've got. He's shown the best combination of efficiency, decision making, and finishing ability thus far. The offense has much better odds of getting a high percentage shot when he gets the ball in a position to work in the post, whether it comes from the paint or perimeter. Decent court vision and good passing for a big man. The challenge will be recognizing those moments and the decision making of our back court players.

Side note - it's already comforting to see them break down a zone. Things will continue to improve.


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[Trish 11,570]

Our zone offense last night looked promising. At one point, we had a four out 1 in against the zone which really got the defense to move. We were attacking the gaps which is key, just couldn't convert on all our drives or kick outs. 

Defense looked okay. There were a couple times I saw our players chasing their man while being glued to their hip. This doesn't happen in a pack-line defense. Some of our closeouts were a little lazy as well, so that's something that needs addressed. Closeouts are a huge pillar in the pack-line. Rebounding will be an issue due to our size. We increase our change of getting rebounds in the pack-line, but our lack of height will offset that imo. 

Our vets were a no-show tonight. Johnson and Newkirk look clueless for whatever reason. Hope Morgan is okay, probably out Wednesday. Missing Collin is a huge blow. 

Overall, we have to remember, this is a brand new system on both sides of the basketball. Archie is implementing his new style with players he didn't recruit. It won't look the cutest this season, that should be obvious from any basketball junkie. Right now, this team is just a bunch of role players. 

[triple 412]

Sorry if it has been covered here but man it really irks me to see late arriving fans and empty seats.  I know the folks on this board are die hard fans...no fingers pointed here.  But I wonder what it will take to get our B-town base to better support the program.  I've heard the excuses but when I flip on our rivals' games and see packed houses from the tip to buzzer, those excuses fall flat.  If I lived there, I'd be there.  Come' on Hoosier fans, represent!!!!  

Yes I know this is like beating a dead horse.  Only it isn't.  Our campus culture was once rabid about hoops and there is no reason it couldn't be so again.  

[Hovadipo 56,265]

Sorry if it has been covered here but man it really irks me to see late arriving fans and empty seats.  I know the folks on this board are die hard fans...no fingers pointed here.  But I wonder what it will take to get our B-town base to better support the program.  I've heard the excuses but when I flip on our rivals' games and see packed houses from the tip to buzzer, those excuses fall flat.  If I lived there, I'd be there.  Come' on Hoosier fans, represent!!!!  
Yes I know this is like beating a dead horse.  Only it isn't.  Our campus culture was once rabid about hoops and there is no reason it couldn't be so again.  

You can blame INDOT or whoever is currently in charge of the 37/69 construction for the late arriving fans and Indy fans not wanting to fill the place against a school like Howard.

It’s a legit excuse in my opinion.


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[Trish 11,570]

16 minutes ago, triple said:

Sorry if it has been covered here but man it really irks me to see late arriving fans and empty seats.  I know the folks on this board are die hard fans...no fingers pointed here.  But I wonder what it will take to get our B-town base to better support the program.  I've heard the excuses but when I flip on our rivals' games and see packed houses from the tip to buzzer, those excuses fall flat.  If I lived there, I'd be there.  Come' on Hoosier fans, represent!!!!  

Yes I know this is like beating a dead horse.  Only it isn't.  Our campus culture was once rabid about hoops and there is no reason it couldn't be so again.  

I'll chime in on this. 

One thing for certain, the traffic on 37 is a huge factor. I assume fans don't want to add on the extra 20-30 minutes going through Brown County / Spencer.  I'm not quite sure of the parking, so that may be another reason why fans are arriving late. 

Students are selling their tickets like hotcakes. I was honestly shocked when I saw this a month ago, students selling all their tickets for dirt cheap. Days or hours before the game, I'll see dozens and dozens of students trying to get rid of their ticket. I think the interest is down with the students because we're not a contending team currently. The freshman and true die hard student basketball fans will show up, but that's about it. And of course, the majority of the seating is student based which explains the empty seats. 

I live in Bloomington and came here for Indiana basketball (and school of course) but finding non student tickets + parking passes for a decent cost is tough. With the way we've performed the first two games, I imagine the cost will decrease for both student and non student tickets. 

[LockdownD 2,238]

But I wonder what it will take to get our B-town base to better support the program.

Winning 

Hoosier fans want/ expect to see successful teams. We know what that looks and feels like and we don't want to settle for less.

i will say that it takes me longer to get through security than in the past. I'm a season ticket holder and I've got to allow more time to get into AH. It's just how it has to be.