Standards at Indiana

[Old Friend 8,389]

The "fire Crean" threads and posts have been around a while, so I thought I'd start a new thread to discuss a broader topic :  the standards and expectations at Indiana.

 

1)  Yesterday, Troy Williams' mother tweeted this :  https://twitter.com/westonlawless/status/669235834659434496.  Please pardon the profanity. (If anyone knows how to blacken the f bomb, please do...I couldn't figure that out as it's not a PDF)

 

That is not okay.  It is not who Indiana is, and not what Indiana stands for.  That screams entitlement, it screams selfishness, and it screams of a family who has absolutely no idea where they are or how to accept a challenge by a coach.   Troy Williams is a marvelously talented player; but this kind of parental um.....involvement cannot be tolerated at this level, and Indiana doesn't need this kind of distraction or divisive behavior by anyone involved.  I know she apologized, but that changes nothing.   Either we're a team or we're a bunch of families and kids with agendas.  If we're the latter, we will never, ever win anything at Indiana.  That's not our DNA and not our culture.  I am disgusted with this woman, and she needs to do a heck of a lot more than apologize.    I blame the woman, and I blame Crean for allowing the culture at Indiana to become what it obviously has (more in a moment)

 

2)  Tom Crean has been the coach at Indiana for 7 Big Ten seasons.  Even if you take away the first 2 seasons, which I think is completely reasonable and he deserves a pass there...he STILL has a losing conference record of 44-46.   That stunned me when I looked it up.   Indiana has finished higher than 5th exactly once under Crean.  That's bad.  And it doesn't matter how it's spun.

 

This also is not okay.   At least I don't think so.  Big Ten championships have been the standard for IU since I remember beginning to watch them back in the mid 1970's.  I do not understand why the administration and subsequently the coaches and players have allowed things to deteriorate to this level.  A losing conference record over 5 seasons (discounting the first 2) is enough to get a coach fired at Illinois.  Why is it not enough to at least cause significant alarms at Indiana?  Where do we want to be as a program?  Do we want to win....or....not?

 

3)  Crean himself has said "our internal leadership has been less than poor."  Okay...he's right.  But what about external leadership?  What about building and mentoring leaders?  What about recruiting leaders?   Seems to me Crean focuses on talented players who have been coddled their entire lives (see : Williams, Ferrell, etc) and doesn't place much effort or focus on recruiting kids who get it.  Who understand from day 1 where they are and what's expected at Indiana.  Or, maybe HE doesn't understand.   

 

Indiana had triple the recruiting budget of any other Big Ten team over the last year.  And 10x higher than Wisconsin.  For what?  For who?  Juwon Morgan?  OG Anunoby?  Tim Priller?   Was Thomas Bryant worth almost $700,000 when everyone else spends about $200,000 or less?   With Emmitt Holt, Devin Davis, Thomas Bryant, Jeremy Hollowell, Hanner Parea, Yogi Ferrell, Stanford Robinson, and Troy Williams all being in trouble with the law within the last 20 months, this program has lost its foundation.  It's a mess.  That's reality.

 

We are a very talented team this season.  What is the status of our program?   Where do we want to go?  Who do we want to be?  Is Indiana still willing to be elite, or has our administration simply settled for mediocrity and gone the route of :  "Are we now just another school?"  Have the trustees and Michael McRobbie (who should be nowhere near sports) simply decided they don't care about excellence on the athletic field?  Do they simply not understand that our men's basketball program is largely the world's window into our University?  Or is it the fault of coaches?   Mike Davis clearly didn't understand where he was, and changed recruiting focus to the south, fracturing many local relationships in the process.  Crean has focused on the east coast.  To what end?  

 

What can we do about it?  The state of our nation is not positive.  We'll win games, but I think we all know we won't win titles.  Not when we have one of our better players whose mother does what she did yesterday.  Those things are poison.  They're cancerous.  We have no leadership; we turn the ball over at an alarming rate, 40+% of our shots come from the 3 point line, we can't guard, and we don't make free throws.  That simply does not say "long term success" to me, nor do the numbers, history, or recruiting patterns.     

 

I just wonder how alone I am in my concern.  Maybe I'm a lone wolf...and I'm okay with that.  Maybe I have lots of allies.  And I'm okay with that, too.  But regardless of what happens this season, I am concerned with the overall state direction of the men's basketball program.   I don't mean to be negative....but rather paint an accurate picture of where things have been and where I think they are based on data and history.

 

Fire away.

[Hovadipo 56,160]

Couldn't agree more regarding #1. That was absolutely ridiculous. (Which is to be expected from her, unfortunately) I actually felt pretty bad for Troy because in my experiences around him, he isn't like that at all.

[Rookie33 932]

Couldn't agree more regarding #1. That was absolutely ridiculous. (Which is to be expected from her, unfortunately) I actually felt pretty bad for Troy because in my experiences around him, he isn't like that at all.

I agree - you need to consider the source here.  TW's mom isn't the most stable person (as she's shown on this very site).  That said, I thought Walton said it perfectly about Troy, "He can do anything he wants in this game..."  He has all the athletic tools to succeed in the NBA.  If only he had half of Victor's heart , he'd be a top 5 pick...

[Old Friend 8,389]

Couldn't agree more regarding #1. That was absolutely ridiculous. (Which is to be expected from her, unfortunately) I actually felt pretty bad for Troy because in my experiences around him, he isn't like that at all.

I will admit ignorance relative to her.  This is the first I've ever had any visibility to her, and apologize if it's old news.

[Hovadipo 56,160]

I will admit ignorance relative to her. This is the first I've ever had any visibility to her, and apologize if it's old news.

She was a member here at one point, and it got out of control a few times. And another time on Instagram I believe she went off on some people. It takes a certain type of player parent to put up with Indiana fans, I'm sure, but sometimes it's better step away from the keyboard.

[Crimson and Cream 5,810]

Beautifully said Old Friend, wish I could like this more than once. A culture change is necessary for sure imo.

[OliviaPope40 6,517]

Basketball players are like a box of chocolates you never know what you're going to get. Some boxes are so good you never want to stop eating the box and some you just simply want to throw away because they're not like the other boxes.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Couldn't agree more regarding #1. That was absolutely ridiculous. (Which is to be expected from her, unfortunately) I actually felt pretty bad for Troy because in my experiences around him, he isn't like that at all.

It was ridiculous but it's a mom tweeting on her Twitter. I mean, what does anyone want? Should we be screening every player to make sure their families are in line with our values? Parent police?

I mean, who cares? A parent believes their kid should play more and disagrees with a coach? Stop the presses! There must be a game going on at any level of any sport anywhere in the country.

It's just crazy we are even bothering to talk about this. It's the most non-issue non-issue ever. Would anyone care if Kobe's mom got pissed about something?

[HoosierTrav 7,886]

The "fire Crean" threads and posts have been around a while, so I thought I'd start a new thread to discuss a broader topic :  the standards and expectations at Indiana.

 

1)  Yesterday, Troy Williams' mother tweeted this :  https://twitter.com/westonlawless/status/669235834659434496.  Please pardon the profanity. (If anyone knows how to blacken the f bomb, please do...I couldn't figure that out as it's not a PDF)

 

That is not okay.  It is not who Indiana is, and not what Indiana stands for.  That screams entitlement, it screams selfishness, and it screams of a family who has absolutely no idea where they are or how to accept a challenge by a coach.   Troy Williams is a marvelously talented player; but this kind of parental um.....involvement cannot be tolerated at this level, and Indiana doesn't need this kind of distraction or divisive behavior by anyone involved.  I know she apologized, but that changes nothing.   Either we're a team or we're a bunch of families and kids with agendas.  If we're the latter, we will never, ever win anything at Indiana.  That's not our DNA and not our culture.  I am disgusted with this woman, and she needs to do a heck of a lot more than apologize.    I blame the woman, and I blame Crean for allowing the culture at Indiana to become what it obviously has (more in a moment)

 

2)  Tom Crean has been the coach at Indiana for 7 Big Ten seasons.  Even if you take away the first 2 seasons, which I think is completely reasonable and he deserves a pass there...he STILL has a losing conference record of 44-46.   That stunned me when I looked it up.   Indiana has finished higher than 5th exactly once under Crean.  That's bad.  And it doesn't matter how it's spun.

 

This also is not okay.   At least I don't think so.  Big Ten championships have been the standard for IU since I remember beginning to watch them back in the mid 1970's.  I do not understand why the administration and subsequently the coaches and players have allowed things to deteriorate to this level.  A losing conference record over 5 seasons (discounting the first 2) is enough to get a coach fired at Illinois.  Why is it not enough to at least cause significant alarms at Indiana?  Where do we want to be as a program?  Do we want to win....or....not?

 

3)  Crean himself has said "our internal leadership has been less than poor."  Okay...he's right.  But what about external leadership?  What about building and mentoring leaders?  What about recruiting leaders?   Seems to me Crean focuses on talented players who have been coddled their entire lives (see : Williams, Ferrell, etc) and doesn't place much effort or focus on recruiting kids who get it.  Who understand from day 1 where they are and what's expected at Indiana.  Or, maybe HE doesn't understand.   

 

Indiana had triple the recruiting budget of any other Big Ten team over the last year.  And 10x higher than Wisconsin.  For what?  For who?  Juwon Morgan?  OG Anunoby?  Tim Priller?   Was Thomas Bryant worth almost $700,000 when everyone else spends about $200,000 or less?   With Emmitt Holt, Devin Davis, Thomas Bryant, Jeremy Hollowell, Hanner Parea, Yogi Ferrell, Stanford Robinson, and Troy Williams all being in trouble with the law within the last 20 months, this program has lost its foundation.  It's a mess.  That's reality.

 

We are a very talented team this season.  What is the status of our program?   Where do we want to go?  Who do we want to be?  Is Indiana still willing to be elite, or has our administration simply settled for mediocrity and gone the route of :  "Are we now just another school?"  Have the trustees and Michael McRobbie (who should be nowhere near sports) simply decided they don't care about excellence on the athletic field?  Do they simply not understand that our men's basketball program is largely the world's window into our University?  Or is it the fault of coaches?   Mike Davis clearly didn't understand where he was, and changed recruiting focus to the south, fracturing many local relationships in the process.  Crean has focused on the east coast.  To what end?  

 

What can we do about it?  The state of our nation is not positive.  We'll win games, but I think we all know we won't win titles.  Not when we have one of our better players whose mother does what she did yesterday.  Those things are poison.  They're cancerous.  We have no leadership; we turn the ball over at an alarming rate, 40+% of our shots come from the 3 point line, we can't guard, and we don't make free throws.  That simply does not say "long term success" to me, nor do the numbers, history, or recruiting patterns.     

 

I just wonder how alone I am in my concern.  Maybe I'm a lone wolf...and I'm okay with that.  Maybe I have lots of allies.  And I'm okay with that, too.  But regardless of what happens this season, I am concerned with the overall state direction of the men's basketball program.   I don't mean to be negative....but rather paint an accurate picture of where things have been and where I think they are based on data and history.

 

Fire away.

 

I'm shooting from the hip, in my estimate, but I'd say you are actually in the majority at this point.

[Old Friend 8,389]

It was ridiculous but it's a mom tweeting on her Twitter. I mean, what does anyone want? Should we be screening every player to make sure their families are in line with our values? Parent police?

I mean, who cares? A parent believes their kid should play more and disagrees with a coach? Stop the presses! There must be a game going on at any level of any sport anywhere in the country.

It's just crazy we are even bothering to talk about this. It's the most non-issue non-issue ever. Would anyone care if Kobe's mom got pissed about something?

I've coached a long time.  Crazy parents are very easy to identify, and they're poison.  Most non-issue?   Disagree.  That kind of thing is absolutely divisive, and it shows an agenda that does not match that of any successful program.  You just can't do that....especially after one game.   You turn your child over to a coach, and if you have a problem...you talk to the coach.  24+ hours after the problem.  That's how you do things.  You do not publicly air your grievances and you do not do what she did.  It is far from a non-issue.

[Stuhoo 80,781]

Patty Williams is batshirt crazy.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,370]

I coach multiple sports too.  We institute the 24+ hour policy as well.  It really helps to make logical discussions versus the angry rants.  I am a huge advocate of the 24 hour policy!

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

I've coached a long time. Crazy parents are very easy to identify, and they're poison. Most non-issue? Disagree. That kind of thing is absolutely divisive, and it shows an agenda that does not match that of any successful program. You just can't do that....especially after one game. You turn your child over to a coach, and if you have a problem...you talk to the coach. 24+ hours after the problem. That's how you do things. You do not publicly air your grievances and you do not do what she did. It is far from a non-issue.

It's a total non-issue for anyone who understands social media.

She's a parent. You can't tell her what she can't do on her Facebook. Her agenda does not control the program. What solution do you propose? Punish Troy until he gets his mom in line? Interview people's parents before offering?

It's not coming from anyone related to the program. Whether Doc Libby is great or not (she is) does not affect the program.

I know it would have been an issue if Noort's mom published an editorial in the Journal Gazette and I'm sure Coach a Knight would have been happy to choke her back into line. But it's 2015 and every single mom has Facebook. We can not pretend coaches or players should have any control over someone's mother. This is a non-issue. I don't care what Joe Flacco's mom says, why do I care what Troy Williams' mom says? Why would anyone possibly care what a person says about their kid in a heated moment? Does she coach basketball? Does she understand any coaching principles? Does Crean listen to her? Then who cares if a mom thinks her kid deserves PT? If Troy understands then that is the only person Crean can control.

I mean, what could possibly want from her? What does she have to do to earn your forgiveness?

[BburgHoosier 27]

Laughed at the Don Noort reference.

 

Not many IU fans know who he is or the role he played getting IU to RMK's first final four.

[Hovadipo 56,160]

It's a total non-issue for anyone who understands social media.

She's a parent. You can't tell her what she can't do on her Facebook. Her agenda does not control the program. What solution do you propose? Punish Troy until he gets his mom in line? Interview people's parents before offering?

It's not coming from anyone related to the program. Whether Doc Libby is great or not (she is) does not affect the program.

I know it would have been an issue if Noort's mom published an editorial in the Journal Gazette and I'm sure Coach a Knight would have been happy to choke her back into line. But it's 2015 and every single mom has Facebook. We can not pretend coaches or players should have any control over someone's mother. This is a non-issue. I don't care what Joe Flacco's mom says, why do I care what Troy Williams' mom says? Why would anyone possibly care what a person says about their kid in a heated moment? Does she coach basketball? Does she understand any coaching principles? Does Crean listen to her? Then who cares if a mom thinks her kid deserves PT? If Troy understands then that is the only person Crean can control.

I mean, what could possibly want from her? What does she have to do to earn your forgiveness?

There's nothing you can do and there's nothing I would propose doing, but I'll bet that JD Campbell **** his pants when he saw that pop up yesterday. It just reflects *so* badly on the program when a parent (especially one who already has somewhat of a following from going off before) puts something like this out there. I wouldn't say it went "viral" or anything, but it was definitely picked up a little bit and spread around and there is just no positive that comes from it.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

There's nothing you can do and there's nothing I would propose doing, but I'll bet that JD Campbell **** his pants when he saw that pop up yesterday. It just reflects *so* badly on the program when a parent (especially one who already has somewhat of a following from going off before) puts something like this out there. I wouldn't say it went "viral" or anything, but it was definitely picked up a little bit and spread around and there is just no positive that comes from it.

The only people I saw caring at all were the same talking heads who feast on TMZ videos of players because they get paid to fill the airwaves. They are the only people outside of our fan base who thought about it for more than a minute. I have plenty of people I'm in contact with from other fan bases. They didn't know or they didn't care. You have to be very stupid or very old to make a huge deal out of what someone posts to their own Facebook wall.

This level of scrutiny of the family of players is gross. It's everything we should hate about the E! style media. What's next? Bryant's little sister says she thinks Crean is a mean ole poopy head and we paste that on the front page?

[Hovadipo 56,160]

The only people I saw caring at all were the same talking heads who feast on TMZ videos of players because they get paid to fill the airwaves. They are the only people outside of our fan base who thought about it for more than a minute. I have plenty of people I'm in contact with from other fan bases. They didn't know or they didn't care. You have to be very stupid or very old to make a huge deal out of what someone posts to their own Facebook wall.

This level of scrutiny of the family of players is gross. It's everything we should hate about the E! style media. What's next? Bryant's little sister says she thinks Crean is a mean ole poopy head and we paste that on the front page?

Well, I disagree with that opinion. I suppose that makes me stupid.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Well, I disagree with that opinion. I suppose that makes me stupid.

Apparently.

[VO5 8,272]

Well, I disagree with that opinion. I suppose that makes me stupid.

yeah, I'm with you. Looks bad

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

yeah, I'm with you. Looks bad

To whom? Looks bad to whom? Talking heads? Recruit's parents? NBA scouts? Other fan bases? Indiana fans?

Can someone find me a few examples of people who care about this whose opinions we value? And explain why we value their opinion?

My mother-in-law once made us leave a concert because she ate onions at dinner and knew everyone thought she smelled bad. She couldn't think of who thought that or why she would care about it, but worked it up so much in her head she couldn't understand everyone else wasn't consumed with it like she was.

That's exactly what is happening with the Indiana fan base here.

"Looks bad" "reflects poorly" these things all require a third party whose opinion we care about. Who are these third parties and why do we think they are even thinking about it?