IUFB HC Candidates

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Thats a little misleading, don't you think? Lynch's last year had a RS senior QB and a junior in Doss. Tre, Shane, and Cody were freshmen Wilson's first year.

 

 

I don't think it's as misleading as saying CKW built this team from scratch. He received a fairly solid, albeit young, team capable of going more than 1-11 based on recruiting done by previous coaches. The core group he inherited, especially including people like Tre, Shane, Cody, and Bolser, would end up carrying the team on their backs until the big QB controversy. Plus, it's not like Tre was the only QB he had. Wright-Baker was average to slightly better than average.

 

There were a lot of reasons we went 1-11 that year, but because CKW had just been hired and hadn't had a chance to build the team from scratch isn't one of them. I don't agree that we can just discard that year like we do with Crean's first three.

[KingPG21 6,582]

Hazell did a pretty good job at Toledo too.

..... Kent State?

[ThompsonHoosier 3,414]

I don't think it's as misleading as saying CKW built this team from scratch. He received a fairly solid, albeit young, team capable of going more than 1-11 based on recruiting done by previous coaches. The core group he inherited, especially including people like Tre, Shane, Cody, and Bolser, would end up carrying the team on their backs until the big QB controversy. Plus, it's not like Tre was the only QB he had. Wright-Baker was average to slightly better than average.

 

There were a lot of reasons we went 1-11 that year, but because CKW had just been hired and hadn't had a chance to build the team from scratch isn't one of them. I don't agree that we can just discard that year like we do with Crean's first three.

Well if we are going to go by that, should Lynch's first season (his best season) count since he took over all the talent that Hoeppner left behind?

[lucel15 3,052]

If you want a coach. Hire me

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Well if we are going to go by that, should Lynch's first season (his best season) count since he took over all the talent that Hoeppner left behind?

Count for... what exactly? How often do we ever count Lynch's seasons for any reason? Does Lynch deserve the credit for coaching that team to that win record? Absolutely. Heck, I think Mike Davis deserves a lot more credit than he gets for 2002. We've seen what bad coaching can do to a good roster.

 

But, it's also a different point than I made. No one ever says Lynch built that team from scratch. Someone said Kevin Wilson built his successes from scratch, it's way up in my original comment. I'm merely pointing out this is untrue, the foundation and support for Kevin Wilson's success including very good offensive recruits, was already there when he started coaching. He built on Coach Lynch's recruiting successes and inherited a team capable of going at least 3-9 or 4-8. People compared his first year to Coach Crean's and I believe this is inappropriate. Coach Crean had to immediately build a team and recruit 5 scholarship players in his first 2 months to even field a complete team for his first year.

 

Had Kevin Wilson had to go out and find half of his team, I would agree he had built his team from scratch. But, he inherited a fair number of high skill players.

[ThompsonHoosier 3,414]

Under Bill Lynch

2007: 7-6 (3-5 in conference)**Players still thought they would play under Hoeppner-SOS 67

2008: 3-9 (1-7 in conference)- SOS 81

2009: 4-8 (1-7 in conference)- SOS 73

2010: 5-7 (1-7 in conference)- SOS 86

4 yrs: 19-30 (6-26 in conference)

Recruiting under Lynch-Rivals Class Rankings

2007: 98th

2008: 78th

2009: 59th

2010: 93rd

Under Kevin Wilson

2011: 1-11 (0-8 in conference)- SOS 88

2012: 4-8 (2-6 in conference)- SOS 71

2013: 5-7 (3-5 in conference)- SOS 44

2014: 4-8 (1-7 in conference)- SOS 65

4 years: 14-34 (6-26 in conference)

Recruiting Under Wilson- Rivals Class Rankings

2011: 60th.

2012: 67th.

2013: 38th.

2014: 38th.

 

I think we can agree that Wilson has brought at least some relevance to the program, so I think we can stop with the argument that he hasn't done better than Lynch. Now is it time to find a new coach? or do we wait a little longer?

[ThompsonHoosier 3,414]

Count for... what exactly? How often do we ever count Lynch's seasons for any reason? Does Lynch deserve the credit for coaching that team to that win record? Absolutely. Heck, I think Mike Davis deserves a lot more credit than he gets for 2002. We've seen what bad coaching can do to a good roster.

 

But, it's also a different point than I made. No one ever says Lynch built that team from scratch. Someone said Kevin Wilson built his successes from scratch, it's way up in my original comment. I'm merely pointing out this is untrue, the foundation and support for Kevin Wilson's success including very good offensive recruits, was already there when he started coaching. He built on Coach Lynch's recruiting successes and inherited a team capable of going at least 3-9 or 4-8. People compared his first year to Coach Crean's and I believe this is inappropriate. Coach Crean had to immediately build a team and recruit 5 scholarship players in his first 2 months to even field a complete team for his first year.

 

Had Kevin Wilson had to go out and find half of his team, I would agree he had built his team from scratch. But, he inherited a fair number of high skill players.

 Lynch's recruiting successes? what successes? besides 4 or 5 players that actually developed under Wilson, there wasn't much success in Lynch's recruiting.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

 Lynch's recruiting successes? what successes? besides 4 or 5 players that actually developed under Wilson, there wasn't much success in Lynch's recruiting.

You wouldn't consider Roberson, Latimer, Wynn, or Bolser recruiting successes? I think it's disingenuous to ignore the Lynch recruits who ended up drafted or to say it was all because Wilson developed them. That's like saying Mike Davis is responsible for Jared Jefferies.

 

And, who cares about Lynch beyond the team he left behind? The original point I responded to said Coach Kevin Wilson should get leeway for his first couple of years because he built the team from scratch. All I did was cite the pieces of the team already pre-built for Coach Wilson. It is verifiably untrue to say Kevin Wilson started with nothing and had to build this team from scratch.

 

What I originally responded to was "Most competent coaches get it done within a few years provided they have the pieces in place. Wilson built this team from scratch, so he was given the benefit of the doubt for an extended period". Please don't read some argument that Lynch was a better coach into this.

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

You wouldn't consider Roberson, Latimer, Wynn, or Bolser recruiting successes? I think it's disingenuous to ignore the Lynch recruits who ended up drafted or to say it was all because Wilson developed them. That's like saying Mike Davis is responsible for Jared Jefferies.

 

And, who cares about Lynch beyond the team he left behind? The original point I responded to said Coach Kevin Wilson should get leeway for his first couple of years because he built the team from scratch. All I did was cite the pieces of the team already pre-built for Coach Wilson. It is verifiably untrue to say Kevin Wilson started with nothing and had to build this team from scratch.

 

What I originally responded to was "Most competent coaches get it done within a few years provided they have the pieces in place. Wilson built this team from scratch, so he was given the benefit of the doubt for an extended period". Please don't read some argument that Lynch was a better coach into this.

Not even gong to touch the Wright-Baker one, I don't think he ever played college football after that year. Wynn was a CKW recruit. Latimer and Bolser were successes no doubt. But when you take the complete team as Lynch left it, quite a few were gone after CKW's first year, and many of them that were left, found themselves well behind freshmen that they had several seasons on. Lynch had some successes at recruiting, every other coach here has too. But there was not much here as a team when CKW showed up, lots of bodies, some talent here or there.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Not even gong to touch the Wright-Baker one, I don't think he ever played college football after that year. Wynn was a CKW recruit. Latimer and Bolser were successes no doubt. But when you take the complete team as Lynch left it, quite a few were gone after CKW's first year, and many of them that were left, found themselves well behind freshmen that they had several seasons on. Lynch had some successes at recruiting, every other coach here has too. But there was not much here as a team when CKW showed up, lots of bodies, some talent here or there.

How many years does he need to play decent football? He had a better QB behind him. It happens. It continues to not undermine my entire point. Wilson did not build this team from scratch. His record is his record.

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

How many years does he need to play decent football? He had a better QB behind him. It happens. It continues to not undermine my entire point. Wilson did not build this team from scratch. His record is his record.

Unfortunately, as long as it takes, even if we change coaches. I'm not sure Tre as a true freshman was actually any better. 

 

Going to address a few points from this entire thread, and even points I may have read elsewhere, so this isn't all about your point. 

 

First, is recruiting. You can make the argument that recruiting has plateaued, but its hard to say that its slipping. Class size is extremely important in looking at team rankings from the recruiting services. Not sure why, but the 48th place class in 2013 as listed by 247 included 31 players, Rivals lists 26 recruits that year, and ranked the class 38th. This years class was ranked 49th (Rivals) or 51st (247) with 22 or 23 players respectively. The difference in class size alone is going to make a difference of a few spots. Either way, it would not have equaled the two earlier classes without the addition of several higher rated players. So you can make the argument that we slipped a bit last year, but its hard to justify calling it a trend. As far as this year goes, who cares at this point. As someone who follows IU football recruiting heavily, I can tell you that under CKW and staff, they are far more inclined to take commitments later, rather than earlier, and have no problem pursuing the recruits they want right up till they sign on the dotted line. Based on what I've picked up this year, IU is actively recruiting and getting plenty of interest from some very good recruits. How this class turns out is very much up in the air. However, if your only metric is team rankings for the class, it is most likely going to slip also, as its very likely at this point that this recruiting class is going to be several schollies less than any of the previous few years, and unless we have more attrition than expected, probably smaller than any I can find records on.

 

Second, I'm not sure that the idea of finding a defensive minded coach is any cure for the Hoosiers, it would definitely be a way of addressing our weakest point, but also would not take advantage of where are strengths are. You could argue that point back and forth forever, its pretty subjective. I'm just pointing it out.

 

Third, looking at the defense overall, I'm disappointed, but not surprised. There only a few bright points I see at this point. Our D-line is decent against the run, our defense has done their part in TO margin, although limited TO's from the offense should get the most credit, (Tied for 10th in FBS), and our red zone defense is respectable. The red zone defense is a bit misleading because so much of the scoring against IU is done from outside the red zone. The part that doesn't surprise me is the secondary. They were always a unknown heading into the season, and now that we "know" them, its hard to have even mediocre expectations. They show a lot of potential, but in any decent defensive team, that potential would be developed on the practice field for a season or two with limited playing time. Some great instincts, good potential, but its telling that it takes a trip to the locker room to get them focused to play for another 10-15 minutes. The best thing about freshmen is that it only lasts that one year. 

 

Fourth, I'd point out that Coach Knorr has done pretty well as a DC in prior positions. And its not like he was at football powerhouses where he had a lot of great pieces to work with. I suspect, if he gets the opportunity, he'll do pretty good here also. I don't know how many times I've heard football coaches say, "Its not the x's and O's, its the Jimmies and Joes." I actually see potential for a decent D here, question is, will it get time to develop under this staff, or given time, will they develop it? Defensively, I really wish we had had a decent DC instead of Doug sooner, I think we would have developed quicker.

 

I could go one making arguments all day long, but those are just a few that have stood out to me. Several more I can't remember at the moment. My conclusions are probably more interesting anyway. Here they are.

 

At this point IU is 4-3. Injuries to Howard and Suds aside, we really needed a win in one of those 3 losses. Making a bowl game is a lot tougher at this point than it looked after a 4-0 start. It requires 2 wins either on the road and/or against tough ranked teams. (BTW, kudos to Harbaugh for UM's run at this point, as I was a real doubter that he would make that much of a difference that quick.) This team is capable of winning any of its last 5 games. Its also capable of losing all 5. 

 

Lose all 5, and I'd say Glass consider keeping CKW for one more year, but its a hard sell no matter if you want to or not, and I really can't see it happening. Its still a hard sell if we only win 1 more and play competitive in the other 4. If we actually get 2 more wins, its got to be a automatic that he's back. What we need however, is to see enough to justify an extension. Sending this staff on the recruiting trail in the last two years of CKW's contract is a extremely tough row to hoe. He will be negatively recruited (and already is) because no recruit can realistically look at this staff being their coaches for 4 years, and that's often a huge selling point, particularly at a school with no record of football success.

 

You can look at all that as a defense of the staff, you can find negatives to justify canning CKW. Bottom line is this. There are 5 more games, and if they do what they need to out on the field the can kill all the speculation of a coaching change, or harden it into solid rock. At this point, just win.

[lucel15 3,052]

Al golden?

[akhosrof 1,168]

Unfortunately, as long as it takes, even if we change coaches. I'm not sure Tre as a true freshman was actually any better.

Going to address a few points from this entire thread, and even points I may have read elsewhere, so this isn't all about your point.

First, is recruiting. You can make the argument that recruiting has plateaued, but its hard to say that its slipping. Class size is extremely important in looking at team rankings from the recruiting services. Not sure why, but the 48th place class in 2013 as listed by 247 included 31 players, Rivals lists 26 recruits that year, and ranked the class 38th. This years class was ranked 49th (Rivals) or 51st (247) with 22 or 23 players respectively. The difference in class size alone is going to make a difference of a few spots. Either way, it would not have equaled the two earlier classes without the addition of several higher rated players. So you can make the argument that we slipped a bit last year, but its hard to justify calling it a trend. As far as this year goes, who cares at this point. As someone who follows IU football recruiting heavily, I can tell you that under CKW and staff, they are far more inclined to take commitments later, rather than earlier, and have no problem pursuing the recruits they want right up till they sign on the dotted line. Based on what I've picked up this year, IU is actively recruiting and getting plenty of interest from some very good recruits. How this class turns out is very much up in the air. However, if your only metric is team rankings for the class, it is most likely going to slip also, as its very likely at this point that this recruiting class is going to be several schollies less than any of the previous few years, and unless we have more attrition than expected, probably smaller than any I can find records on.

Second, I'm not sure that the idea of finding a defensive minded coach is any cure for the Hoosiers, it would definitely be a way of addressing our weakest point, but also would not take advantage of where are strengths are. You could argue that point back and forth forever, its pretty subjective. I'm just pointing it out.

Third, looking at the defense overall, I'm disappointed, but not surprised. There only a few bright points I see at this point. Our D-line is decent against the run, our defense has done their part in TO margin, although limited TO's from the offense should get the most credit, (Tied for 10th in FBS), and our red zone defense is respectable. The red zone defense is a bit misleading because so much of the scoring against IU is done from outside the red zone. The part that doesn't surprise me is the secondary. They were always a unknown heading into the season, and now that we "know" them, its hard to have even mediocre expectations. They show a lot of potential, but in any decent defensive team, that potential would be developed on the practice field for a season or two with limited playing time. Some great instincts, good potential, but its telling that it takes a trip to the locker room to get them focused to play for another 10-15 minutes. The best thing about freshmen is that it only lasts that one year.

Fourth, I'd point out that Coach Knorr has done pretty well as a DC in prior positions. And its not like he was at football powerhouses where he had a lot of great pieces to work with. I suspect, if he gets the opportunity, he'll do pretty good here also. I don't know how many times I've heard football coaches say, "Its not the x's and O's, its the Jimmies and Joes." I actually see potential for a decent D here, question is, will it get time to develop under this staff, or given time, will they develop it? Defensively, I really wish we had had a decent DC instead of Doug sooner, I think we would have developed quicker.

I could go one making arguments all day long, but those are just a few that have stood out to me. Several more I can't remember at the moment. My conclusions are probably more interesting anyway. Here they are.

At this point IU is 4-3. Injuries to Howard and Suds aside, we really needed a win in one of those 3 losses. Making a bowl game is a lot tougher at this point than it looked after a 4-0 start. It requires 2 wins either on the road and/or against tough ranked teams. (BTW, kudos to Harbaugh for UM's run at this point, as I was a real doubter that he would make that much of a difference that quick.) This team is capable of winning any of its last 5 games. Its also capable of losing all 5.

Lose all 5, and I'd say Glass consider keeping CKW for one more year, but its a hard sell no matter if you want to or not, and I really can't see it happening. Its still a hard sell if we only win 1 more and play competitive in the other 4. If we actually get 2 more wins, its got to be a automatic that he's back. What we need however, is to see enough to justify an extension. Sending this staff on the recruiting trail in the last two years of CKW's contract is a extremely tough row to hoe. He will be negatively recruited (and already is) because no recruit can realistically look at this staff being their coaches for 4 years, and that's often a huge selling point, particularly at a school with no record of football success.

You can look at all that as a defense of the staff, you can find negatives to justify canning CKW. Bottom line is this. There are 5 more games, and if they do what they need to out on the field the can kill all the speculation of a coaching change, or harden it into solid rock. At this point, just win.

This is a great post. Right now IU is last or second to last in the B1G in recruiting. However, with all the coaching changes there is plenty of opportunity out there! Best case scenario in my opinion is win the UMD and Purdue games, go to the bowl game and end up with seven wins. In that case you give CKW the extension and hope to steal some quality de-commitments from the coaching changes around the country.

We also need to score a top JUCO/5th year transfer to push for the QB job. Remember, conference schedule goes to nine games next year, the round to a bowl game gets more difficult.

If we lose the rest of our games, or only end up with five wins, it will be hard to justify bringing CKW back. We can't give him an extension, and it is unfair to expect him to be able to recruit with an uncertain future.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

When was the last time you enjoyed watching Indiana football? At the very least, KW has brought an entertaining product to the field. He's recruiting well enough that I'd hope for be extension regardless of whether we win another game this year. I have zero faith out the program to bring in someone better at this time.

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

When was the last time you enjoyed watching Indiana football? At the very least, KW has brought an entertaining product to the field. He's recruiting well enough that I'd hope for be extension regardless of whether we win another game this year. I have zero faith out the program to bring in someone better at this time.

I mostly agree, but it would be a lot easier to support with a win or two.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I mostly agree, but it would be a lot easier to support with a win or two.

Absolutely agree

[Brass Cannon 24,211]

When was the last time you enjoyed watching Indiana football? At the very least, KW has brought an entertaining product to the field. He's recruiting well enough that I'd hope for be extension regardless of whether we win another game this year. I have zero faith out the program to bring in someone better at this time.

 

You enjoy watching this team?  Why exactly?

 

I don't enjoy watching a team go out there and embarrass themselves.  Eeking out wins against garbage teams.  Then playing good teams tough but then failing to execute in the fourth and getting blown out. 

[JSHoosier 19,777]

You enjoy watching this team?  Why exactly?

 

I don't enjoy watching a team go out there and embarrass themselves.  Eeking out wins against garbage teams.  Then playing good teams tough but then failing to execute in the fourth and getting blown out. 

Fast paced offense "fun to watch" crap.  I couldn't possibly care less about "fun to watch" unless the results are Ws.  He's paid for Ws, if he's not doing that he doesn't deserve an extension.

[mamasa 15,123]

You enjoy watching this team?  Why exactly?

 

I don't enjoy watching a team go out there and embarrass themselves.  Eeking out wins against garbage teams.  Then playing good teams tough but then failing to execute in the fourth and getting blown out. 

i very much enjoy watching this team, and I make no apologies for it.  Don't berate/degrade someone for their opinion.  It's a fun team to watch.  I've talked with other B1G fans (not IU) who have commented that IU is watchable for the first time in years.  Sorry if you don't agree, but don't make others feel inferior for their opinions.

[TheWatShot 13,615]

It blows my mind how anyone can think a coach deserves an extension when he's won 32% of his games in nearly five seasons at a Big Ten school with Big Ten resources. How many successful coaches did that for five years and suddenly became good? At some point you have to call a spade a spade.