Perspective with stats

[southernindianahoosier 422]

I also really want to be positive about this team as well. (I think we are a final 4 team if we don't face UK before then) My post wasn't to bash or say the sky is falling but to acknowledge that although the big wins are great, our definition of "big wins" has changed.

I am just worried that the IUBB fan base is in a Stockdale Paradox.

Stockdale Paradox: “This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

To me it means the IU fanbase will always be optimistic (which it has to be), but we can't afford to not confront the most brutal fact that there are some pieces missing for us to be an elite program.

[Banksyrules 4,368]

How is Crean's ceiling Sweet 16's-Final 4's? He has made one final four, and he needed an absolutely exceptional talent to get there. Other than that he has only made the Sweet Sixteen. We should be aiming for higher than just making the Sweet Sixteen

I'll say this, if he makes the tourney this year , he'll have next year to go further then the sweet sixteen. If I were coach I'd do everything sans selling his soul to get a legit center. I'm ok with this year, we could make the elite right if they continue to develop. The rest of the field is not that great this year. Minus duke and Kentucky.

[JSHoosier 19,708]

How is Crean's ceiling Sweet 16's-Final 4's? He has made one final four, and he needed an absolutely exceptional talent to get there. Other than that he has only made the Sweet Sixteen. We should be aiming for higher than just making the Sweet Sixteen

If you view his one Final 4 as a fluke, I've called it as much, then he's only made it to the Sweet 16 twice in 14 seasons with only two conference titles in the same span.  That's not good.

 

 

As for the offensive stats, I wouldn't really use those as an argument to counter those not happy with the halfcourt offense.  We are great in transition and secondary break, always have been with Crean, and that is skewing those offensive stats.

 

EDIT:  I removed the Final Four year to get 14 seasons, so he'd only have 1 conference title in those 14.

[ou812dude 3,326]

If you view his one Final 4 as a fluke, I've called it as much, then he's only made it to the Sweet 16 twice in 14 seasons with only two conference titles in the same span.  That's not good.

 

 

As for the offensive stats, I wouldn't really use those as an argument to counter those not happy with the halfcourt offense.  We are great in transition and secondary break, always have been with Crean, and that is skewing those offensive stats.

I don't think Crean's offensive stats are the problem...it's his defensive allowance that is the problem

[GloryDays 5,913]

I'll say this, if he makes the tourney this year , he'll have next year to go further then the sweet sixteen. If I were coach I'd do everything sans selling his soul to get a legit center. I'm ok with this year, we could make the elite right if they continue to develop. The rest of the field is not that great this year. Minus duke and Kentucky.

Louisville with a more experienced  shooter like *Shquan Aaron is right there too.Definitely capable of title run.

*spelling?

[rebelhoosier848891 9,588]

Great thread!

 

Facts are stubborn things----the fact is many teams would die to have our offense!

 

We just need to get a young team to continue to improve their defense and rebounding----and the sky's the limit!

 

Go Hoosiers!  Keep Improving!

[coonhounds 8,728]

Thanks for this thread! It is interesting to see these positive stats and do feel like this season can b a success in proving lots of people wrong on how good they felt this team would b. In the end it will all come down to how we do in conference and what kind if any post season we have. I hope we sure up the d and can keep this offense going should translate into alot of wins.

[Alford Bailey 12,302]

I've read these stats before. Its mostly just advertising by the university but still we shouldnt totally down play them. Crean has done some nice things. Bottom line is these highlights HAVE to start translating in consistent success and tourney success.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

If you view his one Final 4 as a fluke, I've called it as much, then he's only made it to the Sweet 16 twice in 14 seasons with only two conference titles in the same span. That's not good.


As for the offensive stats, I wouldn't really use those as an argument to counter those not happy with the halfcourt offense. We are great in transition and secondary break, always have been with Crean, and that is skewing those offensive stats.

EDIT: I removed the Final Four year to get 14 seasons, so he'd only have 1 conference title in those 14.

His history as a coach has always been your main argument for why his ceiling is too low for our program, and it's fair. History is a very good indicator or future performance.

But using his history as the main piece of support for why he can't truly succeed here is a little misguided in my mind. You would need to be able to say that his two stops, Marquette and Indiana, both provide the same opportunities to succeed as a head coach. I think we can all agree that even if Crean experienced zero improvement as a coach over his career, his ability to succeed is higher at Indiana. In his time here, at Indiana, I'd say his history is much more promising. I still think he can do very good things here. He's not Bob Knight or even close the best coach right now, but he has proven he can be successful here. I don't care what he did at Marquette. That only mattered when we were deciding whether to hire him or not.

[Alford Bailey 12,302]

If you view his one Final 4 as a fluke, I've called it as much, then he's only made it to the Sweet 16 twice in 14 seasons with only two conference titles in the same span.  That's not good.

 

 

As for the offensive stats, I wouldn't really use those as an argument to counter those not happy with the halfcourt offense.  We are great in transition and secondary break, always have been with Crean, and that is skewing those offensive stats.

 

EDIT:  I removed the Final Four year to get 14 seasons, so he'd only have 1 conference title in those 14.

True. The high octane offense is fun to watch but to have success in a tourney environment (B1G or the Dance) you have to execute in the half court(and against a zone) and play consistent D.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I've seen these stats a few times now, and it always causes me to question my disappointment as a fan and wonder how the entire fan base is so upset. Last season really caused all the damage. Despite the disappointing end to the 2013 campaign, if we had even had mild success, maybe even just one win in the tournament, I think the fan base would be much more content.

[Alford Bailey 12,302]

Great thread!

 

Facts are stubborn things----the fact is many teams would die to have our offense!

 

We just need to get a young team to continue to improve their defense and rebounding----and the sky's the limit!

 

Go Hoosiers!  Keep Improving!

Improvement. This is what I am looking for. Improvement over the course of the season. This team playing its BEST basketball at the end of the season. IMO we've seen this once (2011-12) under Crean and is a big reason why I'm a critic. Sustained improvement by this team will be huge.

[JSHoosier 19,708]

His history as a coach has always been your main argument for why his ceiling is too low for our program, and it's fair. History is a very good indicator or future performance.

But using his history as the main piece of support for why he can't truly succeed here is a little misguided in my mind. You would need to be able to say that his two stops, Marquette and Indiana, both provide the same opportunities to succeed as a head coach. I think we can all agree that even if Crean experienced zero improvement as a coach over his career, his ability to succeed is higher at Indiana. In his time here, at Indiana, I'd say his history is much more promising. I still think he can do very good things here. He's not Bob Knight or even close the best coach right now, but he has proven he can be successful here. I don't care what he did at Marquette. That only mattered when we were deciding whether to hire him or not.

I think it still matters, because at some point a coach's resume reflects his ability and what he's shown in his 15 years isn't and shouldn't be good enough at one of the top programs in history.  In the same time frame he's accomplished far less than any coach at a program of similar history, any coach not named Steve Alford at least.

 

Even if you just look at his time here his teams have regularly faded down the stretch and he certainly didn't build off those two years to sustain success.  That's reflective of his Marquette tenure and alarming.

 

EDIT:  The additional resources at Indiana mean he should be able to achieve more, it doesn't mean he can or will.  What I've seen makes me feel it's not likely to get much better, and what we've seen so far shouldn't be good enough.

[schoosier 3,451]

I thought this was a nice, thoughtful post of things that Indiana has done well. Of course, the mention of lack of post season success by how coaches are truly judged at Indiana is the intangible that truly defines Crean. Just getting to a number one ranking doesn't mean anything without the championship, and that's what I'm looking for in a coach in year seven. The constant reupping his roster has generally worked against him and generally lack of his recruiting choices has exasberated this. Tomorrow will be a really good test to see how this year is going to work out, and I will be cheering for us as always. I still don't believe Crean can lead us to another banner. I believe his past history dictates that his successes will be limited to a very average years considering what we truy value as Hoosiers.

[Creanfan 291]

I'm sorry, but I read your post and thought.... Geez, IUBB must be THAT bad as whole if we are ecstatic that we've beaten good teams.

I see this as: "Tom Crean is fulfilling the MINIMUM requirements to coach at IU. I don't care who we beat and what their ranking is. I care about the tournament and Banner 6. If we beat 100,000 top ten teams it will all be for nothing if he doesn't win the big dance."

It's like UK or Louisville fans have told us we're a joke, and we've responded with... "We've won against some good teams during the regular season.... Then they flash their rings and we cry."

I don't need championships, I don't need rings.  Are they nice?  Sure but they are icing on the cake.  It's the love of the game and the team.  I don't watch just the champions, I watch competitors.

[southernindianahoosier 422]

I don't need championships, I don't need rings. Are they nice? Sure but they are icing on the cake. It's the love of the game and the team. I don't watch just the champions, I watch competitors.

Creanfan,

Each IUBB fan is different. I was expressing my opinion. It is harsh one because I'm the Only non-UofL grad in the family.

I want to see IU be at the same caliber of Patino's UofL. I wouldn't be so demanding of a ship if we were in the same conversation as Patino's UofL every year. I'd be much more patient!

[bleedhoosier 3,627]

All great points being made here. I'm hopeful for what's ahead in conference given the play we have seen recently. This team is slowly re energizing the fanbase. So much air was taken out over the failed drug tests and the accident. That hurt the feelings about the program in a bad bad way.

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

Creanfan,

Each IUBB fan is different. I was expressing my opinion. It is harsh one because I'm the Only non-UofL grad in the family.

I want to see IU be at the same caliber of Patino's UofL. I wouldn't be so demanding of a ship if we were in the same conversation as Patino's UofL every year. I'd be much more patient!

U of L has only exceeded Indiana's Championship drought by 1 season. If it's only banners you seek, Louisville isn't the model you're after.

[MikeRoberts 6,877]

I've seen these stats a few times now, and it always causes me to question my disappointment as a fan and wonder how the entire fan base is so upset. Last season really caused all the damage. Despite the disappointing end to the 2013 campaign, if we had even had mild success, maybe even just one win in the tournament, I think the fan base would be much more content.

I think you're right but unfortunately it happened. Crean lost some of the faithful in 2013 as we puttered to a disappointing finish, then followed that up with a horrible season where we didn't make the NIT and then followed it up with a buttload of players getting into trouble. It was a long stretch of crap and Crean lost a lot of support. Had we made the tourney/round of 32 last year it would have broken up the crap and stopped the snowball from growing into the abominable snowman that it has.

I think there has been 3 big things that has put Crean in this position and there can't be a 4th, that would be too insurmountable. So far so good this season. We aren't killing it but no reason to hate either. If we make the round of 32 and we return everybody of importance and we stay out of trouble and we land a big, people will get back on board

[bleedhoosier 3,627]

Here is what I see happening.. after March, the carousel opens for business and some fairly big name center reopens his recruitment and slides on over to IU and that will make for a wild run next year. Or April turns into a beast somehow like Louisville keeps finding. That's all we need