College Bball Thread

[Stuhoo]

9 hours ago, Fkfootball1 said:

we passed on Mack and Holtman for this guy. And they are killing us.
 

 

7 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Chris Mack went 20-14 last season. Holtmann went 20-15 and 8-12 in the conference last year. Archie went 19-16 and 8-12 in the conference last year.

 

The "Mack and Holtman are killing us" line looks completely ridiculous when it is put into context of ...

reality.

 

[Brass Cannon]

15 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

 

The "Mack and Holtman are killing us" line looks completely ridiculous when it is put into context of ...

reality.

 

Mack maybe. He did after all make the tourney in year 1. 

Holtmann is 4-0 against Archie and is outrecruiting him in both overall talent and balance. Not to mention not missing the tourney 

[Str8Hoosiers]

It is amazing how quickly somebody can go from "let’s not just look at records." to using records to prove their own narrative.

[MikeRoberts]

Mack maybe. He did after all make the tourney in year 1. 
Holtmann is 4-0 against Archie and is outrecruiting him in both overall talent and balance. Not to mention not missing the tourney 

This is the best summary. Mack and Holtmann collectively made the tourney 3-0. Collectively 4-1 against Archie. Collectively recruiting VERY well and filling important needs.

For those giving him a hard time, do you believe Archie is doing better or just challenging him for the sake of challenging him?


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[Hoosierfan2017]

8 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

They made the tourney so let’s not just look at records. At the end of day Holtmann and Mack are getting the job done

Are they though? Mack lost in the first round and Holtmann lost in the second round. Making the tournament is certainly better than not, but we were what, one win away from making the tournament? We're only talking about the difference of 1 win, 2 wins at the most. They both had more success than Archie last year, but not to the point where we should be kicking ourselves for hiring Archie instead of one of them. 

As for recruiting, Archie had a top 10 class last year. It hasn't panned out the way we've wanted, but that happens sometimes. For all we know, the same thing will happen with Holtmann/Mack's classes. This year, Archie has a solid class coming in. We've got Mr. Basketball/McDonald's All American TJD, former top 100 recruit Joey Brunk, and Armaan Franklin. By all accounts all three are hard working multi-year players who like each other. With the rumored team chemistry problems from last year, this is huge. The class doesn't look sexy on paper, but I expect people to be pleasantly surprised.

Last year was a disaster, no argument from me there. Despite that, the two guys people are wishing we went after didn't do much better. So, I understand some of the concern, but I don't understand those who are mad we didn't hire Holtmann or Mack.

[MikeRoberts]

Are they though? Mack lost in the first round and Holtmann lost in the second round. Making the tournament is certainly better than not, but we were what, one win away from making the tournament? We're only talking about the difference of 1 win, 2 wins at the most. They both had more success than Archie last year, but not to the point where we should be kicking ourselves for hiring Archie instead of one of them. 
As for recruiting, Archie had a top 10 class last year. It hasn't panned out the way we've wanted, but that happens sometimes. For all we know, the same thing will happen with Holtmann/Mack's classes. This year, Archie has a solid class coming in. We've got Mr. Basketball/McDonald's All American TJD, former top 100 recruit Joey Brunk, and Armaan Franklin. By all accounts all three are hard working multi-year players who like each other. With the rumored team chemistry problems from last year, this is huge. The class doesn't look sexy on paper, but I expect people to be pleasantly surprised.
Last year was a disaster, no argument from me there. Despite that, the two guys people are wishing we went after didn't do much better. So, I understand some of the concern, but I don't understand those who are mad we didn't hire Holtmann or Mack.

See above. You said last year was a disaster. Enough said.

I’m cheering for Archie but I am not going to argue with anyone that says they wish we would have gotten one of the other two guys. Nobody in Columbus or Louisville are saying last year was a disaster but we are in Bloomington. And, when it really mattered and OSU and IU both needed wins it make the tourney, OSU wiped the floor with us to give Holtmann his 4th straight victory over Archie to get his team in to the tournament


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[MoyeNeeded]

5 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

 

 

The "Mack and Holtman are killing us" line looks completely ridiculous when it is put into context of ...

reality.

 

Some early top 25 polls have Louisville as a top 5 team with one having them at number 2. They wasn't as loaded last season as some think but made it into the tournament. I would say that Mack is getting it done there.

[Hillsdale87]

2 hours ago, MoyeNeeded said:

Some early top 25 polls have Louisville as a top 5 team with one having them at number 2. They wasn't as loaded last season as some think but made it into the tournament. I would say that Mack is getting it done there.

Mack is getting it done, no doubt. But he took over a program that was in a great spot. Pitino was fired for violations, not performance like Crean was. The team that Padgett coached was a preseason top 15 team before Pitino got fired. There was a lot of talent there. He had a good season, although they fell apart after that Duke loss. And he's got an awesome class coming in. But the Louisville situation is not comparable to IU


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[bigrod]

11 minutes ago, Free Jurkin! said:

Mack is getting it done, no doubt. But he took over a program that was in a great spot. Pitino was fired for violations, not performance like CREAN was. The team that Padgett coached was a preseason top 15 team before Pitino got fired. There was a lot of talent there. He had a good season, although they fell apart after that Duke loss. And he's got an awesome class coming in. But the Louisville situation is not comparable to IU


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Fixed it for you...

[Stuhoo]

1 hour ago, MoyeNeeded said:

Some early top 25 polls have Louisville as a top 5 team with one having them at number 2. They wasn't as loaded last season as some think but made it into the tournament. I would say that Mack is getting it done there.

 

I'm not at all against giving good coaches their due ... Mack and Holtman are excellent hires. 

However, to say that Mack and Holtman outperformed Archie last year is not really true. For the coming year? As Bill Parcells said "You are what your record says you are."  Just like Archie got dinged for a record that was below expectations last year, I'll judge him for the coming year when I see how many games we win!

Finally, to say that Mack and Holtman are killing us...[emphasis added] is the truly ridiculous part.

Mack and Holtman may do very well next year; that is irrespective of us: Why not say Tony Bennett and Bill Belichick are 'killing us'. When another coach does well, it's rarely tied to us. 

Archie Miller and staff need to assemble and coach up a roster that will win games at a high level; it's that simple and has pretty much nothing to do with how well Mack, Belichick, Holtman, Tony Bennett, John Wooden, or the coach of the local pee-wee baseball team is doing.

 

 

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

I'm not at all against giving good coaches their due ... Mack and Holtman are excellent hires. 

However, to say that Mack and Holtman outperformed Archie last year is not really true. For the coming year? As Bill Parcells said "You are what your record says you are."  Just like Archie got dinged for a record that was below expectations last year, I'll judge him for the coming year when I see how many games we win!

Finally, to say that Mack and Holtman are killing us...[emphasis added] is the truly ridiculous part.

Mack and Holtman may do very well next year; that is irrespective of us: Why not say Tony Bennett and Bill Belichick are 'killing us'. When another coach does well, it's rarely tied to us. 

Archie Miller and staff need to assemble and coach up a roster that will win games at a high level; it's that simple and has pretty much nothing to do with how well Mack, Belichick, Holtman, Tony Bennett, John Wooden, or the coach of the local pee-wee baseball team is doing.

 

 

They dont affect Archie but they definitely are strong arguments against the “it requires 3 years” argument. 

[Stuhoo]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

They dont affect Archie but they definitely are strong arguments against the “it requires 3 years” argument. 

 

Well neither of them did all that hot in year two, and I haven't seen their (or Archie's) year three result yet.

 

[Brass Cannon]

Just now, Stuhoo said:

 

Well neither of them did all that hot in year two, and I haven't seen their (or Archie's) year three result yet.

 

Mack hasn’t had a year 2?  And is high in a national poll. 

Holtman beat Archie twice and made the tourney. So a better year 2

[Stuhoo]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

Mack hasn’t had a year 2?  And is high in a national poll. 

Holtman beat Archie twice and made the tourney. So a better year 2

 

Meh; Hotman won one more game and snuck in. That's better, but it was better with 15 losses. 

As for Mack, he rolled the dice that a school with a loaded talent pool would not be crushed by the NCAA - smart move so far. The second year after Pitino was fired he lost 14 with that talent pool. Better than our 16 losses? Sure; a little bit.

As for 'high in a (pre-season) poll' - aren't ya gonna give Archie credit for being higher in pre-season polls that Holtman last year?  ;) 

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

Guys, what difference does all this really make?  Archie's our coach - you like it; you don't like it.  Holtman had a better year 2; so what.  Holtman isn't coaching IU.  Archie had a better year than Bryce Drew; so what.  Believe me, I'm not happy with how last year played out but arguing about who had a better year 2 just seems so meaningless and pointless.  I'm pretty confident I know where btb members stand on the whole Archie issue simply from the passage of time and following btb pretty closely and that's perfectly OK.  I really do try to respect the differing opinions.  But damn, this horse is dead and you still want to keep kicking it.   

[Brass Cannon]

12 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Meh; Hotman won one more game and snuck in. That's better, but it was better with 15 losses. 

As for Mack, he rolled the dice that a school with a loaded talent pool would not be crushed by the NCAA - smart move so far. The second year after Pitino was fired he lost 14 with that talent pool. Better than our 16 losses? Sure; a little bit.

As for 'high in a (pre-season) poll' - aren't ya gonna give Archie credit for being higher in pre-season polls that Holtman last year?  ;) 

Obviously what happens in season matters more but until the preseason rankings are a decent placeholder. 

Holtmann May have only won 1 more game but he won a game in both the NCAA tourney and the big Ten tourney just last year. Something Archie has yet to do. 

At the end of the day OSU and Louisville had seasons very much in line or surpassing expections. Where as Archie failed to live up to expectations I would say in year 2 for sure and I don’t think an NIT would have been unrealistic in year 1

. It’s time for this fan base to stop being okay and manufacturing excuses for not meeting expectations. 

[Str8Hoosiers]

8 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Obviously what happens in season matters more but until the preseason rankings are a decent placeholder. 

Holtmann May have only won 1 more game but he won a game in both the NCAA tourney and the big Ten tourney just last year. Something Archie has yet to do. 

At the end of the day OSU and Louisville had seasons very much in line or surpassing expections. Where as Archie failed to live up to expectations I would say in year 2 for sure and I don’t think an NIT would have been unrealistic in year 1

. It’s time for this fan base to stop being okay and manufacturing excuses for not meeting expectations. 

Louisville

Preseason Ranked as high as 16th (https://bigredlouie.com/2018/05/10/nbc-sports-has-louisville-basketball-ranked-16th-in-early-2018-19-top-25/)

But per ESPN Unranked (#39 in the others getting votes)

End of Season UNRanked (#32 in the others getting votes)

Ohio State

Preseason Unranked (no Votes)

End of Season Unranked. (No Votes)

So both teams made the tournament. Neither did well, and could argue neither deserved to be there. Neither Surpassed expectations, I guess you could say they lived up to them.... but by that logic so did IU (expectations were unranked, and end of season was unranked).

 

I truly believe you all can only see this through glasses of exhaustion of fandom for our program... it sucks to lose, it sucks to not be in the tournament, it sucks to miss on a few recruits.. I get it... but to ready write off Archie as worse than Holtmann or Mack is premature... The conversation has been repeated ad-naseum but we were in a much worse position starting off with Archie than either Mack or Holtmann entered into. I don't care if it is year 1, 2, or 3... I am not making excuses for the program being down but I am not putting all that on Archie either.

 

This Year:

Preseason Ranks

Louisville = #5

Ohio State = #24

Indiana = Unranked

So if we end up improving more than them this year does that mean they failed and their coaches are worse than Archie?

[MoyeNeeded]

50 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Well neither of them did all that hot in year two, and I haven't seen their (or Archie's) year three result yet.

 

Mack just starting year two and has one of the top recruiting classes coming in.

[Brass Cannon]

1 minute ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

Louisville

Preseason Ranked as high as 16th (https://bigredlouie.com/2018/05/10/nbc-sports-has-louisville-basketball-ranked-16th-in-early-2018-19-top-25/)

But per ESPN Unranked (#39 in the others getting votes)

End of Season UNRanked (#32 in the others getting votes)

Ohio State

Preseason Unranked (no Votes)

End of Season Unranked. (No Votes)

So both teams made the tournament. Neither did well, and could argue neither deserved to be there. Neither Surpassed expectations, I guess you could say they lived up to them.... but by that logic so did IU (expectations were unranked, and end of season was unranked).

 

I truly believe you all can only see this through glasses of exhaustion of fandom for our program... it sucks to lose, it sucks to not be in the tournament, it sucks to miss on a few recruits.. I get it... but to ready write off Archie as worse than Holtmann or Mack is premature... The conversation has been repeated ad-naseum but we were in a much worse position starting off with Archie than either Mack or Holtmann entered into. I don't care if it is year 1, 2, or 3... I am not making excuses for the program being down but I am not putting all that on Archie either.

 

This Year:

Preseason Ranks

Louisville = #5

Ohio State = #24

Indiana = Unranked

So if we end up improving more than them this year does that mean they failed and their coaches are worse than Archie?

Look we can play the what if game all people want.  “What if Archie wins it all next year derp. “

At the end of the day making the tournament is the baseline for an acceptable bad year by most canvases that pay their coach 3 million a year. “We had a bad year but at least we made the tourney” Archie has yet to do that. And now goes into year 3 with a very unbalanced roster even if Devonte is able to be a consistent contributor and that’s a big if. 

Obviously if year 3 goes better I’ll admit I was wrong. But you know what. I started to have concerns about Crean after year 2 and everybody told me I was wrong and wasn’t a real fan and I got told that pretty consistently for 6 years by at least half the fan base  

Ignoring the bad things in the hopes that the good possibilities happen is just wishful thinking. 

And from personal experience people who refuse to change and don’t hold people accountable don’t succeed regardless of their role. 

[MoyeNeeded]

41 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Guys, what difference does all this really make?  Archie's our coach - you like it; you don't like it.  Holtman had a better year 2; so what.  Holtman isn't coaching IU.  Archie had a better year than Bryce Drew; so what.  Believe me, I'm not happy with how last year played out but arguing about who had a better year 2 just seems so meaningless and pointless.  I'm pretty confident I know where btb members stand on the whole Archie issue simply from the passage of time and following btb pretty closely and that's perfectly OK.  I really do try to respect the differing opinions.  But damn, this horse is dead and you still want to keep kicking it.   

It really doesn't and I'm a huge Archie fan. I just think he needs time. Adjustments to recruiting and coaching philosophy in the B10 alot different than at Dayton. I think he should get a full recruiting cycle.