Maryland vs Indiana - Game Thread, Fri., 12/1 @ 7 BTN

[str8baller 5,253]

12 minutes ago, Schreckbagger said:

They play different positions and different roles. 

If that part of the comparison was confusing you, substitute Steve Hart for Jordan Geronimo.  
 

The overall point remains the same, but there’s a little more parallel in positions for those that like that sort of thing. 

[OliviaPope40 6,517]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

Six and one BAYBEEEEE!!

Dick Vitale is that you?

[BGleas 7,903]

Here's my thing on the Cupps, Gunn, Leal stuff. 

Yes, Cupps and Leal are going to give up some points due to lack of size and/or athleticism. They just are. Cupps will add size/bulk as he develops and will be fine, but yes right now his strength is an issue. 

Neither really contribute much offensively, though Cupps does provide a reliable ballhandler that can give Galloway/XJ a break. But, they also don't really take anything off the table offensively. 

With all of that said, I'll take the above and I think most coaches would too, over Gunn right now. Gunn has the length and athleticism, yet constantly gets out of position and beat defensively. 

I'll take the guys that are mostly in good position but get beat because of athleticism over the the guy that has the tools but is causing our defense stress because he's out of position and flying by shooters, going for pump fakes that allow penetration, etc. 

I'll take the guys that might not be adding much offensively vs the guy taking things away offensively. I'll take Cupps 0-for-1 in 20 minutes while providing extra ball handling over Gunn going 1-for-4 in 12 minutes with three bad shots. 

Gunn and Cupps both have upside, but a coach is always going to pick the guy he can trust more. 

[Stuhoo 80,871]

14 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Here's my thing on the Cupps, Gunn, Leal stuff. 

Yes, Cupps and Leal are going to give up some points due to lack of size and/or athleticism. They just are. Cupps will add size/bulk as he develops and will be fine, but yes right now his strength is an issue. 

Neither really contribute much offensively, though Cupps does provide a reliable ballhandler that can give Galloway/XJ a break. But, they also don't really take anything off the table offensively. 

With all of that said, I'll take the above and I think most coaches would too, over Gunn right now. Gunn has the length and athleticism, yet constantly gets out of position and beat defensively. 

I'll take the guys that are mostly in good position but get beat because of athleticism over the the guy that has the tools but is causing our defense stress because he's out of position and flying by shooters, going for pump fakes that allow penetration, etc. 

I'll take the guys that might not be adding much offensively vs the guy taking things away offensively. I'll take Cupps 0-for-1 in 20 minutes while providing extra ball handling over Gunn going 1-for-4 in 12 minutes with three bad shots. 

Gunn and Cupps both have upside, but a coach is always going to pick the guy he can trust more. 

If I’m the staff I’m rolling with Cupps and Leal for the next three games, and then giving Gunn way more run against the cupcakes.

[BGleas 7,903]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

If I’m the staff I’m rolling with Cupps and Leal for the next three games, and then giving Gunn way more run against the cupcakes.

Agree. He needs to watch for awhile and get to a place where the game slows down for him. 

He also needs to find or understand his role offensively. He is not a shooter whatsoever. 

[IU - Kaulie 1,891]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Here's my thing on the Cupps, Gunn, Leal stuff. 

Yes, Cupps and Leal are going to give up some points due to lack of size and/or athleticism. They just are. Cupps will add size/bulk as he develops and will be fine, but yes right now his strength is an issue. 

Neither really contribute much offensively, though Cupps does provide a reliable ballhandler that can give Galloway/XJ a break. But, they also don't really take anything off the table offensively. 

With all of that said, I'll take the above and I think most coaches would too, over Gunn right now. Gunn has the length and athleticism, yet constantly gets out of position and beat defensively. 

I'll take the guys that are mostly in good position but get beat because of athleticism over the the guy that has the tools but is causing our defense stress because he's out of position and flying by shooters, going for pump fakes that allow penetration, etc. 

I'll take the guys that might not be adding much offensively vs the guy taking things away offensively. I'll take Cupps 0-for-1 in 20 minutes while providing extra ball handling over Gunn going 1-for-4 in 12 minutes with three bad shots. 

Gunn and Cupps both have upside, but a coach is always going to pick the guy he can trust more. 

This is so spot on.

I will take it one step further that Leal looked good on offense.  When he was bringing up the ball he was really pushing it.  He also had a couple nifty passes. The 3 he took didn’t go down but it looked really good with him putting it up.  A lot better than anything Gunn is hoisting up.

All of your takes on Gunn are 100% correct right now.  I like him but this is just where we are right now.

On an unrelated note, I wish (beg) CMW would find some more minutes for Kaleb Banks somewhere.

I think he can play a couple different spots.  He looked comfortable even bringing the ball up the court but I wouldn’t want him to do that against pressure but this is a kid that needs to play and I think he really helps us with just his movement and activity level.  There is a reason he is always around the ball making plays.  I see him being able to do a little bit of everything including the ability to hit the 3 and score ‘junk’ points.  He should still be getting more minutes.

[BGleas 7,903]

1 minute ago, Ngw7183 said:

As a coach, I am still surprised you can’t see how limited he is athletically as well. Yes, strength is an issue but he is not quick at all. You can train some speed but quickness is kind of what it is. 

also, look at his assist and turnover rate, he may be another ball handler but he is a poor one at the moment. So he doesn’t score, doesn’t assist and turns it over. This is why Woody is pulling him more and more. He will for sure improve but it is really bad right now. Seems as though half the fans see that and half don’t. 

This isn’t to say CJ over him but CJ sure has way more upside and he is no Jordan Geronimo since we are throwing that comparison at him. CJ can catch a ball and not trip walking. He also had a solid HS career. He will get it.

Real issue is we need X back really bad. Him not being in that 2nd half was reason for all the turnovers. We need someone to just handle the pressure and calm things. That pressure will be higher going forward. Really hope we can squeak through the next 2 games without him but will be really tough to do. 

There are reasons Cupps is getting more time than Gunn consistently.

It's not necessarily because of what Cupps is doing, I'll grant you that, but right now Gunn is a hot mess on both ends. 

Any coach would take the guy he can trust over the guy he can't. Right now, Gunn can't be trusted consistently out there on either end. 

Honestly, it's a bigger indictment against Gunn that he can't overtake Cupps right now, because its not like Cupps is doing that much out there. 

[BGleas 7,903]

There have also been players much less athletic than Cupps that have been really good high major players. 

His issue right now is strength. He needs to continue to develop in terms of body maturity and add strength and he'll be fine. 

But, we do need to see Cupps add something offensively. We need to see him bring something to the table. Create, hit some shots, etc.  It's not enough to just get the ball up the court and add nothing else. 

[Golfman25 5,430]

6 hours ago, Ngw7183 said:

Not that anything we say here matters or what fans think matters but….

for those saying CJ shouldn’t see the floor and Leal/Cupps need his minutes, CJ (based on stats that I know some don’t like) actually had a better game than both. The more Leal and Cupps play, the worse their efficiency stats get. 

CJ can also defend  (3 steals even with a couple missed switches) when Cupps and Leal can’t stay in front of guys. With X out, I would probably take more Leal with Trey running offense rather than more Cupps.  Once again shows how important X is and how we have zero guard depth.

I get CJ is frustrating but the ability is there. Other guys don’t have the ability he does. Not saying shooter either but ability to be a great defender and efficient scorer by driving. Very similar to Trey honestly. He needs to make it easier on himself as someone else said. He makes the easy play, hard. Liked trying to tomahawk a dunk rather than just lay it up or dunk it with 2 hands. But the other 2 can’t score at all. I think Woodson sees it too and why they are so hard on him. They know he could be so much more. The others give what they have but they can only do so much. 

How do CJ’s stats change if you count his crappy shots as turnovers?

[Golfman25 5,430]

3 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

I’ll be in the other room sobbing. 

No that’s Jared Hulls from Kokomo.  Give him that last scholarship.  

[IU - Kaulie 1,891]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

There have also been players much less athletic than Cupps that have been really good high major players. 

His issue right now is strength. He needs to continue to develop in terms of body maturity and add strength and he'll be fine. 

But, we do need to see Cupps add something offensively. We need to see him bring something to the table. Create, hit some shots, etc.  It's not enough to just get the ball up the court and add nothing else. 

I think Cupps will get there.  I think next year he will be a different player.  He just has to play right now because we have such limited options.

Gunn could still get there too and reach his potential but it’s a big question right now if he realizes that potential.  I hope he figures it out.

[JSHoosier 20,229]

3 hours ago, Hovadipo said:

I’ll be in the other room sobbing. 

I remember him hitting a left handed 3 against, I think, MSU. He shot better with his off hand than some of our players do with their dominant hand.

[BGleas 7,903]

Just now, IU - Kaulie said:

I think Cupps will get there.  I think next year he will be a different player.  He just has to play right now because we have such limited options.

Gunn could still get there too and reach his potential but it’s a big question right now if he realizes that potential.  I hope he figures it out.

Yeah, Cupps work to hard and is too smart to not figure it out, the question is just to what level. 

I've just never seen the Gunn thing. He has some tools. Really good length and athleticism for his position, etc., but he's not a particularly smart player and is a really bad shooter who shoots alot. 

Maybe his shot develops, but for a shooter he has an incredible amount of improving to do. 

[Hornsby 1,925]

Yeah, Cupps work to hard and is too smart to not figure it out, the question is just to what level. 
I've just never seen the Gunn thing. He has some tools. Really good length and athleticism for his position, etc., but he's not a particularly smart player and is a really bad shooter who shoots alot. 
Maybe his shot develops, but for a shooter he has an incredible amount of improving to do. 

Gunn was supposed to have improved alot this summer was the rumor. That did not happen. I don't see him ever being a rotation player at this level his shooting is awful.

Sent from my SM-A146U using Tapatalk

[Schreckbagger 620]

How do CJ’s stats change if you count his crappy shots as turnovers?

Really interesting concept.....if we could truly define a crappy shot. Using the same subjective analogy, do we count Gunns team leading 9 steals as negative TO's?

I enjoy watching ALL these kids play and hopefully develop over time, but more importantly.....win games doing so.

JMO

Sent from my SM-S906U using BtownBanners mobile app

[BGleas 7,903]

5 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

They don’t play close to the same role. Come on. CJ is a 2 who is really a wing. Cupps is a PG.  if CJ could play that role at all, he would play more than Cupps even with his issues. We have way more of the 2/3 guys than we do PG.  I bet if X was playing, Cupps min would be way down and CJ the same fwiw. 

you keep saying “trust” but he has a lower turnover rate and higher defensive rating than Cupps. Trust him for what? To not score and turn it over? Get blown by on D? if you say defensive positioning, Cupps was caught out of position lots last night. 

It isn’t trust, he doesn’t have any options. Cupps is more of a ball handler so by default it’s him but each game his play gets worse. Woody is searching. 

Leal has same issues as Cupps but at least some experience. Leal hasn’t played for a reason. Woody 100% doesn’t want to play him but has pulled Cupps a few times now for him and vice versa. 

I will say something I thought I never would, I would take Braden Smith (yes, freshman version) over Cupps. Cupps is Rob Phinisee.  Limited but a guy easy to route for. 

CJ needs work, yes. More upside, yes. Better chance he contributes way more than Cupps or Leal but mid season, yes. Can he be a ball handler with X down, nope. Not his strength. His strength is defending, rebounding and scoring (not shooting) but slashing. He is showing some real explosiveness. 

hopefully survive the next 2 games and X can stay healthy rest of the year. 

We have a total of 4 healthy backcourt guys (Galloway, Cupps, Gunn and Leal) and one of those guys barely has played in his career. Yet, Gunn is still struggling to get playing time. 

I completely understand stats and analytics, but once again they are not the end all be all. They are a part of a larger story. 

It is crystal clear that Mike Woodon trusts Gabe Cupps incredibly more than he does CJ Gunn, at least right now. It's obvious. 

Cupps isn't even doing anything out there and Gunn still can't get more minutes. That says a whole lot about how Gunn is playing. 

Cupps is a much smarter player. Is rarely out of position, etc. Gunn is out of position all of the time, goes for unnecessary shot fakes around the perimeter causing the entire defense to scramble, and takes terrible shots. 

Mike Woodson has shown us with his playing time who he trusts more right now.

There is way more to evaluating these things than stats. Being in the right place at the time, understanding the schemes, understanding what's a good shot and what isn't, etc

 

[go iu bb 6,050]

2 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

You are right, we should probably bench him like so many wanted MM and Walker to be benched.

Right, because the situation with Gunn is totally the same as those two. Calling to for a sophomore who hasn't played well his whole career is totally the same as calling for a 5* freshman in his first few games or a 5th year player who has been dependable in the past to sit.

[Uspshoosier 45,686]

21 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Really good high major careers as a PG in the last 10/15 years? Trying to think of a PG who I would say was not athletic and had really good high major career

Luckily for college kids they don’t need the nba athleticism and measurables  to be a very good college basketball player.   Also lucky for them that they get 4 years to grow into being impactful players     Tyler Kolek was an unranked kid from Rhode Island that went to George Mason.  No high major wanted him because of his lack of athleticism and measureables.    Transfers to Marquette and with hard work and coaching turned into the Big East player of the year as a junior and now as a senior is viewed as  one the best point guards today.   Ryan A not going to try and spell for Nova became one heck of a college point guard.   Kihei Clark was a 3 star kid committed to UC Davis his senior year because no high major wanted him because he was too small to play high major ball.   Everyone wanted his teammate Akinjo.   He outshined his teammate at peach jam and decomits after Virginia offers him.    Kid saved Virginia as a freshman and turned out to have a very successful career.   There are honesty too many stories like these to count for college basketball.    This isn’t the NBA and for that I’m thankful because none of those kids had a chance to play at the level but none of that matters because they were studs in college when “experts” projected they wouldn’t be high major 

[Golfman25 5,430]

29 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

I don’t know, how do Cupps and Leals change since they can’t hit a shot to save their life either. It is also a liability when the other team knows you won’t shoot, you won’t drive and are just an extra body on offense. Even a missed shot and threat of a strong drive keeps D honest with CJ. Not so much with Cupps. 

Turnover rate however is turnover rate. 

You are right, we should probably bench him like so many wanted MM and Walker to be benched.

Look, you can either use critical thinking to truly evaluate stats, or you can just blah, blah, blah on.  Going down the court, putting up a quick off balance shot, that has zero chance of going in and is rebounded by the opponent is the equivalent of a turnover.  That is something CJ is guilty of and needs to be considered if you’re going to make an objective evaluation.  Stats aren’t perfect.  

[Uspshoosier 45,686]

2 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

But neither is playing well. It really is that simple.

For some reasons, about half the fans don’t want to believe the stats screaming at them and their trend.

Because they can it’s really that simple