IUBB vs Wright State - Thursday, 11.16.23 @ 7:00 on BTN

[IU_FanClub 1,856]

1 hour ago, lillurk said:

Missed some of the game but a couple additional thoughts:

Mgbako hasn’t caught on to the switching rules. Chris is right, he doesn’t get in a stance, but he’s also literally confused. WSU’s last two threes happened when MM followed a cutter he’d ALREADY SWITCHED OFF and was someone else’s man. Then his man was wide open.

I also think we need to get used to Woody not caring much about beating the spread/kenpom. Could the team have been better the last three games? Yep. Does a veteran team that’s played together take care of business in a way that beats those projections? Yep. But Woody didn’t play the type of rotation he’s going to play Sunday.

I would be surprised, and angry, if the all bench lineup made an appearance in meaningful minutes on Sunday. You are right though I don't think Woody cares even a little bit about anything other than winning the game.

[Hoosier987 2,604]

18 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

- that first sub platoon didn’t play that terrible (outside of Walker and Sparks) but just killed the momentum. Really hoping that was last time for that. That change alone probably pushes this out of reach and they would have gave up vs getting energy into half. 

Couldn’t have said it better. We were in rhythm and ready to put the game out of reach. Unfortunately, we’ve seen this play out too often in Woodson’s tenure and I’m certain it’s cost us before. 

[IU_FanClub 1,856]

When I went to the UIndy exhibition game, my main takeaway was that I thought Walker was going to be a big help for us. No idea what happened to him since then lol but he has been awful.

[IU_FanClub 1,856]

Sounds like Castle is out for Uconn on Sunday

[TheWatShot 15,421]

29 minutes ago, IU_FanClub said:

When I went to the UIndy exhibition game, my main takeaway was that I thought Walker was going to be a big help for us. No idea what happened to him since then lol but he has been awful.

There's always a guy who looks great in the exhibition games and gets everyone excited who then disappears when the real games begin. This year it's probably him. 

[TheWatShot 15,421]

34 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

And to further extend on this…we’ve dropped 15 spots in Kenpom since start of season and have nosedived more than 20+ spots on Barrtorvik. Although we avoided disaster by not losing, winning 3 buy games, all by single digits at home, will not look favorable in the computer metrics. Like it or not, the tournament committee uses these metrics.

Yep, we really needed at least one blowout in these first three games and we didn't get it. I have a feeling we aren't going to like where we stand when tournament projections start coming out. 

[Tom White 1,435]

1 hour ago, lillurk said:

MM followed a cutter he’d ALREADY SWITCHED OFF and was someone else’s man.

Do you think this comes down to a lack of trust (because these guys are new as 'mates) or a lack of understanding the scheme?

[lillurk 4,920]

2 minutes ago, Tom White said:

Do you think this comes down to a lack of trust (because these guys are new as 'mates) or a lack of understanding the scheme?

Yeah, specifically I think some of the issues Trey and X are exhibiting are based in a lack of trust. They both have limitations but we have long track records displaying their capability.

[monskisprodigy 2,279]

1 hour ago, RaceToTheTop said:

Sparks and Banks have been very bad from the line -- haven't even looked like their strokes are good.  Sparks was a decent free throw shooter up until last year -- hit 71% of his free throws on over 200 attempts as a freshman.  Last year he fell all the way to 52%.  In high school he shot 71% from the line in 84 games, so obviously something has changed in the last 1+ seasons.

He looked very uncomfortable at the line last night. Looked like he was pushing the ball vs. shooting it. The first miss his demeanor was down immediately and he was upset. Gunn calmed him down with a pep talk, and he sunk one after which was good to see. 

One thing I do know, we will be very happy we have Sparks against teams with bruiser bigs. I am hopeful Ware can hold his own, but tossing a big body in there to be physical and give Ware some breathers is going to be crucial against the Edey's, etc., IMO.

The pieces are there, this team just needs time.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 9,216]

10 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

He looked very uncomfortable at the line last night. Looked like he was pushing the ball vs. shooting it. The first miss his demeanor was down immediately and he was upset. Gunn calmed him down with a pep talk, and he sunk one after which was good to see. 

One thing I do know, we will be very happy we have Sparks against teams with bruiser bigs. I am hopeful Ware can hold his own, but tossing a big body in there to be physical and give Ware some breathers is going to be crucial against the Edey's, etc., IMO.

The pieces are there, this team just needs time.

Well we have a 7-2, 280lb monster on Sunday and Edey twice.

[monskisprodigy 2,279]

1 hour ago, Banksyrules said:

Stupid Question. Why don't we just play man to man? 

Had this same conversation with a friend...I had suggested a zone and his rebuttal was that if they can't handle a switch heavy defense, what makes you think they can rotate appropriately for an effective zone. 

What is the downside to telling these kids you are going to play basic man to man? Get in a stance, Stick to your guy, fight through screens, play defense and if he scores it's on you - not your teammate who you are expecting to bail you out. Ware and Reneau are more than athletic enough to hedge a ball screen and recover. Fight through it, get a hand up, contest and freaking compete.

If they aren't getting it, why continue to complicate it? Go back to the basics, and see who wants to compete on the defensive end. 

I say all that as a guy who hasn't played competitive basketball since highschool, and I know the game has changed, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this difficult. 

[monskisprodigy 2,279]

2 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Well we have a 7-2, 280lb monster on Sunday and Edey twice.

Thanks for reminding me...nightmares incoming until then haha. 

[Stuhoo 88,227]

8 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

Had this same conversation with a friend...I had suggested a zone and his rebuttal was that if they can't handle a switch heavy defense, what makes you think they can rotate appropriately for an effective zone. 

What is the downside to telling these kids you are going to play basic man to man? Get in a stance, Stick to your guy, fight through screens, play defense and if he scores it's on you - not your teammate who you are expecting to bail you out. Ware and Reneau are more than athletic enough to hedge a ball screen and recover. Fight through it, get a hand up, contest and freaking compete.

If they aren't getting it, why continue to complicate it? Go back to the basics, and see who wants to compete on the defensive end. 

I say all that as a guy who hasn't played competitive basketball since highschool, and I know the game has changed, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this difficult. 

They are try to do exactly what you described. There’s a reason Cupps is on the floor at crunch time; he effectively fights through screens by going over them and causes less need for switching and rotation. Cupps is constantly up in an offensive player’s grill,  making him harder to effectively screen. Hence, less need for switching and rotating.

But the offense is actively trying to create switches and rotations, and sometimes they’re successful too.

So, good rotations and switches are part of excellent defense because they are inevitable at times. 

[monskisprodigy 2,279]

6 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

They are try to do exactly what you described. There’s a reason Cupps is on the floor at crunch time; he effectively fights through screens by going over them and causes less need for switching and rotation. Cupps is constantly up in an offensive player’s grill,  making him harder to effectively screen. Hence, less need for switching and rotating.

But the offense is actively trying to create switches and rotations, and sometimes they’re successful too.

So, good rotations and switches are part of excellent defense because they are inevitable at times. 

I guess I am seeing something different, but will watch more intently on Sunday.

I agree switching and rotation is inevitable, but I see a lot of passive switching when its not needed, i.e., soft screens, hand offs, soft cuts, etc. and over helping everywhere. I think its creating confusion on rotations and if they should be switching or not in certain circumstances (which we have seen with Mgbako several times) and IMO, by nature it allows you to relax/be less aggressive, with the expectation that your teammate is switching on vs. you being forced to stick to his butt like glue.

Are we a switch everything defensive model under Woody?

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 11,263]

13 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

I guess I am seeing something different, but will watch more intently on Sunday.

I agree switching and rotation is inevitable, but I see a lot of passive switching when its not needed, i.e., soft screens, hand offs, soft cuts, etc. and over helping everywhere. I think its creating confusion on rotations and if they should be switching or not in certain circumstances (which we have seen with Mgbako several times) and IMO, by nature it allows you to relax/be less aggressive, with the expectation that your teammate is switching on vs. you being forced to stick to his butt like glue.

Are we a switch everything defensive model under Woody?

We should be, 1-4, ish. 

And undoubtedly there has been confusion on switching/defense in general. Find those on film, show them, and then re-teach in practice. 

43 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

Had this same conversation with a friend...I had suggested a zone and his rebuttal was that if they can't handle a switch heavy defense, what makes you think they can rotate appropriately for an effective zone. 

What is the downside to telling these kids you are going to play basic man to man? Get in a stance, Stick to your guy, fight through screens, play defense and if he scores it's on you - not your teammate who you are expecting to bail you out. Ware and Reneau are more than athletic enough to hedge a ball screen and recover. Fight through it, get a hand up, contest and freaking compete.

If they aren't getting it, why continue to complicate it? Go back to the basics, and see who wants to compete on the defensive end. 

I say all that as a guy who hasn't played competitive basketball since highschool, and I know the game has changed, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this difficult. 

can't get down with that philosophy, defense has to be a team concept. Offensive players are too skilled/talented nowadays to just allow 1 on 1 defense the entire game. The biggest problem, our guys need to execute what the coaches are teaching defensively. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 11,263]

I don't have a problem with some possessions of zone, though, no better than man has been, especially. We are crazy long and TG/Cupps/XJ all seem like they'd be fine playing up top on that zone. 

[Stuhoo 88,227]

21 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

I guess I am seeing something different, but will watch more intently on Sunday.

I agree switching and rotation is inevitable, but I see a lot of passive switching when its not needed, i.e., soft screens, hand offs, soft cuts, etc. and over helping everywhere. I think its creating confusion on rotations and if they should be switching or not in certain circumstances (which we have seen with Mgbako several times) and IMO, by nature it allows you to relax/be less aggressive, with the expectation that your teammate is switching on vs. you being forced to stick to his butt like glue.

Are we a switch everything defensive model under Woody?

Once again, I think you are spot-on.

At times, Woody has put us into 'switch everything' mode - in theory it simplifies the situation and prevents guys getting completely lost, though it creates mismatches and creates less defensive pressure. Woody puts us in switch everything mode only when he reaches ultimate frustration that we cannot figure out how to switch when necessary, not convenient. There have been times this year when a screen is set and both the ball defender and the guy guarding the screener go to the ball, and the screener pops out for an unguarded three.

Most coaches save 'switch everything' for end game situations so that there is zero chance of confusion as to whether to switch; think of an offense down one point inbounding with seven seconds left in the game. In that situation many coaches switch everything so that you don't leave someone completely uncovered or allow a straight line drive. The other time I've seen it done effectively is when everyone in the defensive lineup can guard the other team 1-5.

Before the season I was posting that this team is really going to miss Miller Kopp. This defensive dynamic is exhibit 'A' as to why a fifth year Miller Kopp was a much more effective basketball player than the current early freshman year version of Mack Mgbako. My guess is that when defensive rotations and concepts become more intuitive for Mgbako, the current narrative that Mgbako is laterally slow will magically disappear. He is absolutely at least as quick laterally as Kopp, who did great with rotations and denying straight-line drives.

[Stuhoo 88,227]

10 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I don't have a problem with some possessions of zone, though, no better than man has been, especially. We are crazy long and TG/Cupps/XJ all seem like they'd be fine playing up top on that zone. 

There is no way Woody is going to play much zone; it would pretty much be waving the white flag and admitting that our team can't handle defensive communication, application of pressure, and proper rotation.

[monskisprodigy 2,279]

16 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We should be, 1-4, ish. 

And undoubtedly there has been confusion on switching/defense in general. Find those on film, show them, and then re-teach in practice. 

can't get down with that philosophy, defense has to be a team concept. Offensive players are too skilled/talented nowadays to just allow 1 on 1 defense the entire game. The biggest problem, our guys need to execute what the coaches are teaching defensively. 

Definitely not saying that has to be our forever mentality and totally agree defense is a team game. It's apparent they need time, just unfortunate we don't have a lot of it until we play some big boys. 

[Stuhoo 88,227]

5 minutes ago, monskisprodigy said:

Definitely not saying that has to be our forever mentality and totally agree defense is a team game. It's apparent they need time, just unfortunate we don't have a lot of it until we play some big boys. 

That’s why it has been important to stack three wins even if we’ve looked lousy in doing so.