(2020) SG Trey Galloway To IU

[CSP]

23 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

Not sure how Gunn could be a "new shiny thing." He's the last guy in the incoming class that anyone mentions.

Because he is a FR that we know nothing about and is 175lbs who only shot 37% from 3 in HS, and before that, it wasn't even that high. He isn't a sharpshooter, at all. = new shiny thing. He isn't a viable option. 

I don't mean to be disrespectful saying this... but CJ Gunn isn't unseating Trey Galloway for any mins, and personally, I think the coaching staff would laugh at that assertion or possibility. Bates game has much more needed development than TG does, to be more impactful this season. 

[Honkyman]

15 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I think the coaching staff would laugh at that assertion or possibility.

You have no idea what the coaching staff is thinking. In any event, Tamar Bates is the more talented player and is much more likely to have more playing time by the end of the year than Tre Galloway.

[CSP]

7 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

You have no idea what the coaching staff is thinking. In any event, Tamar Bates is the more talented player and is much more likely to have more playing time by the end of the year than Tre Galloway.

It just isn't hard to see Trey's value, and that is why I said "personally this is what I think". To assert TG's mins are going to drop... I think would be laughed at. It makes no sense. 

And yes, I agree, TB is likely to play more mins, that isn't overly relevant though. This isn't an either/or thing, but the point stands... there are more elements to TB's game that he has to work on, than TG does, to have a big impact on our team in 22-23. TB was a lost puppy dog defensively and was incredibly inefficient offensively last season. 

TB has a pretty sizable jump to make in multiple areas, Trey needs to improve one area a marginal amount. This isn't a comparison, both are going to play 18mpg+... past that, not sure, that will be decided in the coming months. 

Personally, I do think TB makes that jump and TG is one HELLUVA backup, as he was last year. 

 

[hoosierbgh]

The effort put into denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value to the team is simply amazing. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

It just isn't hard to see Trey's value, and that is why I said "personally this is what I think". To assert TG's mins are going to drop... I think would be laughed at. It makes no sense. 

And yes, I agree, TB is likely to play more mins, that isn't overly relevant though. This isn't an either/or thing, but the point stands... there are more elements to TB's game that he has to work on, than TG does, to have a big impact on our team in 22-23. TB was a lost puppy dog defensively and was incredibly inefficient offensively last season. 

TB has a pretty sizable jump to make in multiple areas, Trey needs to improve one area a marginal amount. This isn't a comparison, both are going to play 18mpg+... past that, not sure, that will be decided in the coming months. 

Personally, I do think TB makes that jump and TG is one HELLUVA backup, as he was last year. 

 

Great points! I'm not sure why people think Galloway and Bates are an either/or thing. 

We lost Stewart, Phinisee and Lander from the backcourt/wing minutes. I'd expect Kopp's 25mpg to go down and how much that goes down should go to Bates. Boom, Bates just got his minutes increases, assuming he can make big leaps in defense, effort, decision making, shooting, ball handling, etc. 

JHS's minutes come from Stewart's 24.4 mpg. 

So right there we just increased Bates' minutes and got JHS his minutes and we haven't touched Galloway's or the left over minutes from Phinisee and Lander leaving. 

It's pretty glaringly easy to see how at worst Galloway's minutes will stay the same, especially given that he probably has the most unique skill set of that group. 

[str8baller]

46 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

You have no idea what the coaching staff is thinking.

No, but we can make some inferences based on their actions last season. It seemed to me that Galloway was one of their more trusted players on defense and handling the ball. I’d be surprised if Woody is planning on having Galloway take a backseat this upcoming year. They are probably hoping he expands his offensive game like everyone else. 

[BGleas]

12 minutes ago, hoosierbgh said:

The effort put into denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value to the team is simply amazing. 

Yup! I get that we're all desperate for shooting after the last 5-6 years, but Galloway is a guy with a unique skill set and that skill set only gets increasingly valuable with more talent/shooting around him. 

I'm not saying Galloway is an NBA player, and these guys play different positions but stylistically think of him as a Draymond Green or Rajon Rondo type. You don't bench those guys because you need shooting, you surround them with better shooters and their value and impact soars. 

Before someone tries to claim I'm saying Galloway is an NBA All-Star, clearly without a doubt that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying Galloway has a unique skill set that few others on the team bring and it only gets better with increased talent and shooting around him. 

[Stuhoo]

To quote the defensive mastermind Tom Crean, Galloway's defensive "deflections" are uniquely outstanding and a big reason why IU's team defense has been so good. Him and X also pressure the ball very well - they make it really challenging for opposing guards to effectively pass the ball.

[Stuhoo]

22 minutes ago, hoosierbgh said:

The effort put into denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value to the team is simply amazing. 

FWIW, I don't see very much denying, ignoring, or belittling Gallo's value. 

It's more like a few don't think he's as good as others such as Tamar will be, and the Galloway fan club (I am a charter member) are rushing to Trey's on-line defense!  Honkyman and 2017 know their stuff -- they just prefer lots more Bates and maybe more Gunn, with less Gallo.

In all fairness, I generally believe that Galloway's jump shot will never be all that good, and that Bates and probably Gunn have a higher ceiling on offense. But Galloway can be effective on offense as a guy that doesn't need to have the ball in his hands all that much, and he is a major plus on the defensive end which makes it all worthwhile.

[hoosierbgh]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

FWIW, I don't see very much denying, ignoring, or belittling Gallo's value. 

It's more like a few don't think he's as good as others such as Tamar will be, and the Galloway fan club (I am a charter member) are rushing to Trey's on-line defense!                 :)

I don't think it is all intentional but it is there just the same. A lot of it certainly comes from the being overly fixated on shooting to the exclusion of everything else. 

It has been suggested, apparently seriously, that Gunn would be taking minutes from Galloway after all. Gunn certainly has the tools and potential to be a strong contributor down the road but Galloway will most likely be eating his lunch and charging him for the privilege for the foreseeable future.  

[CSP]

3 minutes ago, hoosierbgh said:

I don't think it is all intentional but it is there just the same. A lot of it certainly comes from the being overly fixated on shooting to the exclusion of everything else. 

It has been suggested, apparently seriously, that Gunn would be taking minutes from Galloway after all. Gunn certainly has the tools and potential to be a strong contributor down the road but Galloway will most likely be eating his lunch and charging him for the privilege for the foreseeable future.  

Yeah, I don't think Mr. Gunn will have too much fun in practice this year, same with Mr. Banks. I think they will be immensely better for it, though. 

[WayneFleekHoosier]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

FWIW, I don't see very much denying, ignoring, or belittling Gallo's value. 

It's more like a few don't think he's as good as others such as Tamar will be, and the Galloway fan club (I am a charter member) are rushing to Trey's on-line defense!  Honkyman and 2017 know their stuff -- they just prefer lots more Bates and maybe more Gunn, with less Gallo.

In all fairness, I generally believe that Galloway's jump shot will never be all that good, and that Bates and probably Gunn have a higher ceiling on offense. But Galloway can be effective on offense as a guy that doesn't need to have the ball in his hands all that much, and he is a major plus on the defensive end which makes it all worthwhile.

nailed it.

[Honkyman]

2 hours ago, hoosierbgh said:

The effort put into denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value to the team is simply amazing. 

Nobody is "denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value" that I have seen. Speaking for myself, I written many times I love the guy's heart, energy, and leadership. He was an important contributor last year. But inevitably playing time changes from year-to-year. Corrections are made to make the team better and give it a better chance of winning the close games. It is a fact that IU needs better outside shooting than it showed last season. The lack of consistent 3-point shooting was the team's greatest weakness last year. Whomever can provide consistent 3-point shooting stands a better chance of playing than those who cannot. Otherwise, IU risks having the same kind of season as last year (barely making the tournament).  That isn't belittling anyone. If Galloway shows himself to be the guy who can hit the outside shot in critical moments, then he could be playing in critical moments. If not and there are others who can hit those shots, those players will likely be on the floor more often in those critical moments.

[HoosierHoopster]

58 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

Nobody is "denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value" that I have seen. Speaking for myself, I written many times I love the guy's heart, energy, and leadership. He was an important contributor last year. But inevitably playing time changes from year-to-year. Corrections are made to make the team better and give it a better chance of winning the close games. It is a fact that IU needs better outside shooting than it showed last season. The lack of consistent 3-point shooting was the team's greatest weakness last year. Whomever can provide consistent 3-point shooting stands a better chance of playing than those who cannot. Otherwise, IU risks having the same kind of season as last year (barely making the tournament).  That isn't belittling anyone. If Galloway shows himself to be the guy who can hit the outside shot in critical moments, then he could be playing in critical moments. If not and there are others who can hit those shots, those players will likely be on the floor more often in those critical moments.

I certainly do not think you have belittled or denied Galloway's value, and agree with Stu it's more that you and 2017 just don't think he'll be as good -- without a jumper -- as others such as Bates will be. 

But I do think you're discounting the contributions he has shown he brings on both ends (especially defensively) while overvaluing the need for him to shoot from deep. He'd be better all-around for sure if he could hit well from deep. But his contribution to  wins, when healthy, is beyond clear, and has already been covered in this thread. He plays similar to another point, when he's on the floor the ball moves better, we score more effectively, and the overall D is clearly better. A few stats to add to the mix --

Assists per 100 Poss: he was 3rd on team at 5.1 (excluding Lander and Leal who barely played) the other 2 are X and Rob - so he assisted behind the two points.

Steals per 100 Poss: he was 1st (excluding Duncomb). His D including lane reads is strong.

FG% 4th (excluding Childress and Duncomb). Behind only TJD, Race and JG.

Points per 100 Poss: 6th (excluding Duncomb, Lander, Childress)

Win shares: 7th

On the other hand, the stats also show areas he needs to improve on, beyond 3-point shooting, including

Boards per 100 - last on team. That's kind of surprising to me but it's accurate.

TO's per 100 - 3.8, 3rd highest on team (excluding the usuals). Like JG, he has to improve his handle.

FT 65% - that's a real need

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/indiana/2022.html

 

 

 

[PB1230]

19 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

Nobody is "denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value" that I have seen. Speaking for myself, I written many times I love the guy's heart, energy, and leadership. He was an important contributor last year. But inevitably playing time changes from year-to-year. Corrections are made to make the team better and give it a better chance of winning the close games. It is a fact that IU needs better outside shooting than it showed last season. The lack of consistent 3-point shooting was the team's greatest weakness last year. Whomever can provide consistent 3-point shooting stands a better chance of playing than those who cannot. Otherwise, IU risks having the same kind of season as last year (barely making the tournament).  That isn't belittling anyone. If Galloway shows himself to be the guy who can hit the outside shot in critical moments, then he could be playing in critical moments. If not and there are others who can hit those shots, those players will likely be on the floor more often in those critical moments.

But there's more to being on the floor in critical moments than just hitting threes. Galloway (when healthy) was playing ahead of IU's best 3 point shooter Stewart and 3rd best in Kopp in close games down the stretch. And for a guy likes Bates, he would have needed to be shooting 40%+ from 3 to offset is defense to be taking minutes from Galloway down the stretch. (Not arguing what Bates' defense and all around game will continue to look like that, just demonstrating that it will take a lot more than shooting to start limit Galloway's minutes)

And Galloway's presence was critical. IU had 13 close games (within 5 points at the end of regulation). With Galloway out, IU was 2-6 in  close games (counting him out for St Johns because he was injured early and didn't play many minutes). The 2 wins were against St Johns and Minny, poor teams that IU should have beaten by larger margins - Galloway's presence likely prevents those games from being close. IU was 3-2 in close games with Galloway.

And I'd argue that 3's are somewhat overrated. IU had a 33.3% 3 point percentage, better than 3 sweet 16 teams, and were within a percentage point of 4 more.

[DWB]

2 hours ago, Honkyman said:

 The lack of consistent 3-point shooting was the team's greatest weakness last year. Whomever can provide consistent 3-point shooting stands a better chance of playing than those who cannot. 

Agree to sentence #1, and disagree with sentence #2. 

Based on what I've read so far on this thread, the ability to hit the 3 pt shot is a pre-requisite for playing time from most of the posts. If you have 2-3 guys that can shoot the 3, I would gladly play a player that is a stellar defender AND has the ability to create and get the ball to the right shooters at the right time. He doesn't have to shoot the 3. TG was probably the 4th option to shoot last year. I don't think we need 5 guys on the floor to be able to shoot the 3 ball. 2-3 consistent shooters and 1 viable threat to shoot the 3 is plenty IMO, especially if you have any inside game at all.

If Jordy is allowed to work with the guys on the floor in practice I think you'll see some real improvement.

But for now, the coaching staff trusts TG to play his way, and to his strengths. I don't see his minutes diminishing, but his role may change somewhat with addition of other "shooters" on the team.

[hoosierbgh]

13 hours ago, Honkyman said:

Nobody is "denying, ignoring and belittling Galloway's value" that I have seen. Speaking for myself, I written many times I love the guy's heart, energy, and leadership. He was an important contributor last year. But inevitably playing time changes from year-to-year. Corrections are made to make the team better and give it a better chance of winning the close games. It is a fact that IU needs better outside shooting than it showed last season. The lack of consistent 3-point shooting was the team's greatest weakness last year. Whomever can provide consistent 3-point shooting stands a better chance of playing than those who cannot. Otherwise, IU risks having the same kind of season as last year (barely making the tournament).  That isn't belittling anyone. If Galloway shows himself to be the guy who can hit the outside shot in critical moments, then he could be playing in critical moments. If not and there are others who can hit those shots, those players will likely be on the floor more often in those critical moments.

Yes, some are. I'm not just talking in this thread or even on this site. I've seen apparently serious comments about running Galloway off for players in the transfer portal. I've seen people dredge up stats in to attempt to demonstrate Galloway is not all that valuable. 

Not everyone needs to shoot 3's well. Nor are we trying to build an all star team here. Everyone gets too caught up in 3 point shooting and recruit rankings. There's more to the game than great shooting and Galloway did almost all of those things at a high level. He's also the type of guy that makes guys better, both during games and in practice.  It bears pointing out again, that it was Galloway, when healthy, that finished games over the two primary shooters on the team last year. Hopefully other players develop to the point that we have more and better options this year. Hopefully some of the freshmen are able to contribute as well. If either of those things happen, it'll likely be in part because Galloway is pushing them in practice. One thing is for sure, if someone does end up taking minutes from Trey, they'll have to earn it because he's not going to roll over and let it happen. 

[hoosierbgh]

11 hours ago, DWB said:

Agree to sentence #1, and disagree with sentence #2. 

Based on what I've read so far on this thread, the ability to hit the 3 pt shot is a pre-requisite for playing time from most of the posts. If you have 2-3 guys that can shoot the 3, I would gladly play a player that is a stellar defender AND has the ability to create and get the ball to the right shooters at the right time. He doesn't have to shoot the 3. TG was probably the 4th option to shoot last year. I don't think we need 5 guys on the floor to be able to shoot the 3 ball. 2-3 consistent shooters and 1 viable threat to shoot the 3 is plenty IMO, especially if you have any inside game at all.

If Jordy is allowed to work with the guys on the floor in practice I think you'll see some real improvement.

But for now, the coaching staff trusts TG to play his way, and to his strengths. I don't see his minutes diminishing, but his role may change somewhat with addition of other "shooters" on the team.

This is a key point and one of the major reasons Galloway's minutes are unlikely to go down. He is capable and willing to fulfill any reasonable role the coaching staff chooses for him. Whatever he is asked to do, he'll find away to do it to the best of his ability for the benefit of the team. 

[PB1230]

4 hours ago, hoosierbgh said:

Yes, some are. I'm not just talking in this thread or even on this site. I've seen apparently serious comments about running Galloway off for players in the transfer portal. I've seen people dredge up stats in to attempt to demonstrate Galloway is not all that valuable. 

Not everyone needs to shoot 3's well. Nor are we trying to build an all star team here. Everyone gets too caught up in 3 point shooting and recruit rankings. There's more to the game than great shooting and Galloway did almost all of those things at a high level. He's also the type of guy that makes guys better, both during games and in practice.  It bears pointing out again, that it was Galloway, when healthy, that finished games over the two primary shooters on the team last year. Hopefully other players develop to the point that we have more and better options this year. Hopefully some of the freshmen are able to contribute as well. If either of those things happen, it'll likely be in part because Galloway is pushing them in practice. One thing is for sure, if someone does end up taking minutes from Trey, they'll have to earn it because he's not going to roll over and let it happen. 

Even a team as a whole doesn't necessarily need to shoot 3's well. Wisconsin won a share of the B1G shooting 30.6% from 3. Auburn won the SEC shooting 31.8%. Baylor won a share of the B12 shooting 34.3%. Texas Tech finished 3rd in the B12 shooting 32.1%. Providence finished 2nd in the BE shooting 34%. Arkansas made an elite 8 shooting 30.6%. Miami made an elite 8 shooting 33.9%. Houston won the AAC and made an elite 8 shooting 33.8%.

Yes, 3-point shooting was IU biggest single weakness and is therefore also the area with the greatest potential for growth, but people are latching onto that as the only way to get better. Even without substantially better 3 point shooting, incremental improvements in other areas might very well be enough to get IU over the hump in a lot of games to put IU at the top of the conference and to have a decent tournament run.

[CSP]

47 minutes ago, PB1230 said:

Even a team as a whole doesn't necessarily need to shoot 3's well. Wisconsin won a share of the B1G shooting 30.6% from 3. Auburn won the SEC shooting 31.8%. Baylor won a share of the B12 shooting 34.3%. Texas Tech finished 3rd in the B12 shooting 32.1%. Providence finished 2nd in the BE shooting 34%. Arkansas made an elite 8 shooting 30.6%. Miami made an elite 8 shooting 33.9%. Houston won the AAC and made an elite 8 shooting 33.8%.

Yes, 3-point shooting was IU biggest single weakness and is therefore also the area with the greatest potential for growth, but people are latching onto that as the only way to get better. Even without substantially better 3 point shooting, incremental improvements in other areas might very well be enough to get IU over the hump in a lot of games to put IU at the top of the conference and to have a decent tournament run.

we need more switchability defensively... we need more dudes that can get their own getting to the rack... we can develop shooting, I am not worried about that.