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[Brass Cannon 24,813]

Just now, Bowhunter said:

I thought head coaches brought their own assistants. Unless he coaches in the NBA and needs some new ones.

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He needs people to do outreach to hire them. And one of them is his current assistant. 

[Whoozhers 3,690]

Well.... Looks like Marshall can be scratched off the list. Looks like his wife is baggage after being escorted from the arena. Lol.... Crazy days and crazy nights.


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[yogisballin 2,341]

Well.... Looks like Marshall can be scratched off the list. Looks like his wife is baggage after being escorted from the arena. Lol.... Crazy days and crazy nights.


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Thank god!


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[Old Friend 8,389]

12 hours ago, mdn82 said:

 I honestly think where we differ is on the landscape of the modern recruit and what is important to them.

 

 

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Where we differ within this scope is which "modern recruits" we need to go after.  (I also disagree with your post that only Wisconsin and UNC hire from within.  Butler does too; and they're getting kids Indiana should be....and winning at a high level year after year.)

If we're talking kids who want to be in the NBA in a year or two, I agree with you.  However, I don't have any interest in Indiana becoming Kentucky; which is why I mentioned culture.  I don't believe Glass wants that, either.  Wisconsin is today what Indiana was 20-25 years ago; and I don't think they go after what you refer to as "the modern recruit" much.  They do it how they do it; and all they do is win.  

[Old Friend 8,389]

19 hours ago, jmsgws said:

Old Friend:  I agree with pretty much everything you have said here, except the part about Wisconsin hiring from within.   They have done this somewhat with football, but Gard's hiring is really the only time with BB.  In fact, if Ryan had stayed until the end of the season last year, Gard would probably not be the coach now.  It was very close to the same way we got Mike Davis :)  
 

I think he would have, but the larger point is the system they've stuck with and the way they've built their program over 17 years.  They recruit locally, they play a style that is consistent and difficult to beat; they win and they win big consistently; and I believe no matter who we hire, Indiana will ALWAYS be able to get better talent than Wisconsin simply because of the players within 200 miles of Bloomington.   I think that formula is a successful one; and I have no idea why Indiana would have to hire a search firm to figure out it's just not that hard.  They can hire Billy Donovan....and he'd be great.  Despite what others say or interpret what I said, I think he'd be terrific.  I'm not sure he's the right cultural fit, and all I mean by that is I don't think Indiana wants to play kids who will be here for a year or two and split for the NBA.  I heard that and saw that as a consistent theme (one IU agreed with) when Sampson left.  

Is he a great coach?  Yes.  He most certainly is.   I personally feel there are more necessary criteria; but there's no arguing his success.   I can't really argue the Davis/Gard comparison, but Gard sure learned on Wisconisn's bench.  Davis sat next to Knight for two years and showed he didn't learn a damned thing.  Wisconsin's system is successful.   So's Butler's  They play a style of basketball Indiana played for decades.  I miss it.  There...I said it.  I miss it.   Watching Crean's BS off the dribble got old for me when Verdell Jones was our turnover specialist.   Davis was clueless.  I'm tired of it.  I have seen what works...then and now. I enjoy watching Wisconsin play.  They simply do not make mistakes that beat them very often, and I watched Crean go 2-18 against them.  But somehow, my desire for a system that works and worked at Indiana is an unpopular point of view.  I'm fine with Billy Donovan.  I just don't understand why some are so opposed to an Indiana guy or someone with ties to the area.  It doesn't have to be Alford or anyone else.   But...if Donovan, I'll certainly support him.  Better than Crean by a million miles.

[mdn82 25,510]

Where we differ within this scope is which "modern recruits" we need to go after.  (I also disagree with your post that only Wisconsin and UNC hire from within.  Butler does too; and they're getting kids Indiana should be....and winning at a high level year after year.)
If we're talking kids who want to be in the NBA in a year or two, I agree with you.  However, I don't have any interest in Indiana becoming Kentucky; which is why I mentioned culture.  I don't believe Glass wants that, either.  Wisconsin is today what Indiana was 20-25 years ago; and I don't think they go after what you refer to as "the modern recruit" much.  They do it how they do it; and all they do is win.  

Will Wisconsin win a title staying away from top talent though? Data suggests they won't. Even when Knight won with "Wisconsin" style kids they were 5* kids. Wisconsin doesn't play with much more than 3 and 4* kids. The average 5* kids are different than they were 25 years ago. The romantic perception of the past sounds great. I wish it were still that way. But social media and AAU don't allow that from my view. What Wisconsin has done has been phenomenal but I don't view their program as what our model should be. If you can get a top 5-10 coach I feel we should emulate Duke's recruiting. One to two top kids, with 4 year kids sprinkled in. On a typical year that has proven to be the type of team winning a title. As for wanting to be Kentucky I don't think anyone wants that.


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[sirhoosierlot 2,764]

40 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

 I'm not sure he's the right cultural fit, and all I mean by that is I don't think Indiana wants to play kids who will be here for a year or two and split for the NBA.  

That's never been the case with any of Donovan's teams though. I've went back and looked at their rosters and the only guy that's left that early to go to the NBA is Bradley Beal. Just because he's coached a lot of NBA players doesn't mean they're all one and dones. 

 

Edit: don't know why I went through all their rosters. Would have been easier to just look at the wiki.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_Gators_men's_basketball_players_in_the_NBA

[Alford Bailey 12,386]

21 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Will Wisconsin win a title staying away from top talent though? Data suggests they won't. Even when Knight won with "Wisconsin" style kids they were 5* kids. Wisconsin doesn't play with much more than 3 and 4* kids. The average 5* kids are different than they were 25 years ago. The romantic perception of the past sounds great. I wish it were still that way. But social media and AAU don't allow that from my view. What Wisconsin has done has been phenomenal but I don't view their program as what our model should be. If you can get a top 5-10 coach I feel we should emulate Duke's recruiting. One to two top kids, with 4 year kids sprinkled in. On a typical year that has proven to be the type of team winning a title. As for wanting to be Kentucky I don't think anyone wants that.


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This. We will never hang a 6th banner if we become Wisconsin. Closest Ryan came was with a couple NBA kids.

[Brass Cannon 24,813]

You need NBA kids but not necessarily one and dones.  In fact more often than not teams with one and dones aren't winning it

[Old Friend 8,389]

26 minutes ago, sirhoosierlot said:

That's never been the case with any of Donovan's teams though. I've went back and looked at their rosters and the only guy that's left that early to go to the NBA is Bradley Beal. Just because he's coached a lot of NBA players doesn't mean they're all one and dones. 

 

Edit: don't know why I went through all their rosters. Would have been easier to just look at the wiki.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_Gators_men's_basketball_players_in_the_NBA

Fair enough.

[Old Friend 8,389]

32 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Will Wisconsin win a title staying away from top talent though? Data suggests they won't. Even when Knight won with "Wisconsin" style kids they were 5* kids. Wisconsin doesn't play with much more than 3 and 4* kids. The average 5* kids are different than they were 25 years ago. The romantic perception of the past sounds great. I wish it were still that way. But social media and AAU don't allow that from my view. What Wisconsin has done has been phenomenal but I don't view their program as what our model should be. If you can get a top 5-10 coach I feel we should emulate Duke's recruiting. One to two top kids, with 4 year kids sprinkled in. On a typical year that has proven to be the type of team winning a title. As for wanting to be Kentucky I don't think anyone wants that.


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Like I said, Indiana will always be able to get better talent than Wisconsin simply because there's better talent within 200 miles of the campus.  I don't think we need to replicate Duke.  We differ there.   If Donovan or anyone else can cultivate relationships with coaches around here?   Look out.    It's not just a romantic fantasy.  What if Crean were able to get Kyle Guy, Zak Irvin, Trevon Blueitt, Tyler Wideman, Eron Harris, Joey Brunk, Cooper Neese, Kris Wilkes, Robert Phinissee, Romeo Langford, etc?   I promise he'd still have his job.  

I get that you have to leave the area to find specific kids.  No question.  I also know we're never going to get all of them.  That said, Crean allowed both Butler AND Purdue to take over local relationships, and Indiana is now in a very different place than the other 3.  But....if focus is local and your relationships are largely local...landing you your share of top local (and the RIGHT local...I don't mean Jeremy Hollowell or Hanner Parea...hell, I said when he signed I'd heard from and talked with enough coaches that I knew Hollowell would be a PIA) kids, you'll win, keep your job, and after a few years, you won't have to work very hard to recruit.

[mdn82 25,510]

Like I said, Indiana will always be able to get better talent than Wisconsin simply because there's better talent within 200 miles of the campus.  I don't think we need to replicate Duke.  We differ there.   If Donovan or anyone else can cultivate relationships with coaches around here?   Look out.    It's not just a romantic fantasy.  What if Crean were able to get Kyle Guy, Zak Irvin, Trevon Blueitt, Tyler Wideman, Eron Harris, Joey Brunk, Cooper Neese, Kris Wilkes, Robert Phinissee, Romeo Langford, etc?   I promise he'd still have his job.  
I get that you have to leave the area to find specific kids.  No question.  I also know we're never going to get all of them.  That said, Crean allowed both Butler AND Purdue to take over local relationships, and Indiana is now in a very different place than the other 3.  But....if focus is local and your relationships are largely local...landing you your share of top local (and the RIGHT local...I don't mean Jeremy Hollowell or Hanner Parea...hell, I said when he signed I'd heard from and talked with enough coaches that I knew Hollowell would be a PIA) kids, you'll win, keep your job, and after a few years, you won't have to work very hard to recruit.

That is more than fair enough. I don't see any coach being able to do that the way Knight did it with his best teams. AAU just allows kids to get away from home and interact with other kids that spikes their interest in other locations. I do agree Crean was unable to consistently recruit this state at a level needed to keep his job. The next person needs to move the needle in a way that draws kids back to the state school.


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[323SGrant 1,176]

3 hours ago, mdn82 said:

Will Wisconsin win a title staying away from top talent though? Data suggests they won't. Even when Knight won with "Wisconsin" style kids they were 5* kids. Wisconsin doesn't play with much more than 3 and 4* kids. The average 5* kids are different than they were 25 years ago. The romantic perception of the past sounds great. I wish it were still that way. But social media and AAU don't allow that from my view. What Wisconsin has done has been phenomenal but I don't view their program as what our model should be. If you can get a top 5-10 coach I feel we should emulate Duke's recruiting. One to two top kids, with 4 year kids sprinkled in. On a typical year that has proven to be the type of team winning a title. As for wanting to be Kentucky I don't think anyone wants that.


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Yep. In most cases, you have to have top talent if you want to win the NCAA championship. If you have that and strong coaching every year, you can do some damage in the tournament. Not all the time, see Duke, but more than what we've seen at IU lately.