Louisville self-imposed post-season ban/Rick Pitino interested in UNLV?

[Alford Bailey 12,421]

So what's worse the worse sin at a college institution ? Paying for prostitutes or fixing grades?

[Stuhoo 82,213]

So what's worse the worse sin at a college institution ? Paying for prostitutes or fixing grades?

 

Yes.

[brandct 610]

I honestly don't know how anybody could think Pitino didn't know or that UK isn't dirty beyond belief.

 

If you read I never said that UK was not dirty, but the outward public side makes them look the least dirty over the last few years. That is a huge problem for a fanbase that prides themselves on being better than most especially those Cats down south.

[IUsafety 2,775]

IMO, fixing grades is worse and it's not even close. For an academic establishment to fix grades can discredit everyone who graduates from that school, student and athletes alike. A student goes to school to get educated. They were not being educated, which means their degree is worthless.

Paying for prostitutes may be against the law and a biblical wrong but we are taught from an early age that sex sells. A lot of sex goes on in college, the wrong here is that Louisville may have set it up and paid for it. Naked girls and sex were going to happen any way and every students college degree is not discredited by paying for sex.

That being said, they both deserve to be punished. You do the crime, you do the time.

[southsidehoosier 5,068]

So what's worse the worse sin at a college institution ? Paying for prostitutes or fixing grades?

Getting fake A's or getting fake T & A's

[brandct 610]

IMO, fixing grades is worse and it's not even close. For an academic establishment to fix grades can discredit everyone who graduates from that school, student and athletes alike. A student goes to school to get educated. They were not being educated, which means their degree is worthless.

Paying for prostitutes may be against the law and a biblical wrong but we are taught from an early age that sex sells. A lot of sex goes on in college, the wrong here is that Louisville may have set it up and paid for it. Naked girls and sex were going to happen any way and every students college degree is not discredited by paying for sex.

That being said, they both deserve to be punished. You do the crime, you do the time.

 

There are people suing U of L saying this did discredit their degrees!

[IUsafety 2,775]

There are people suing U of L saying this did discredit their degrees!

I have seen that and I honestly think that those people are butt hurt and looking for an easy payday. I probably wouldn't be a very good judge though.

[Class of '66 Old Fart 86,109]

It's about to be............ A Law Fight!

English barrister wigs at 10 paces.

[Striper 192]

Here is the whole point in photo.

Oh yeah, we can start a Rule Against Perpetuities thread, and maybe a Fertile Octogenarian one as well!?!?!?!?!

[Alford Bailey 12,421]

I liked Pitino's comment about how NCAA should just fine the institution. So the big boosters could just pay these things off? Anyway, come on North Carolina, we're waiting.....

[IUaic 90]

I liked Pitino's comment about how NCAA should just fine the institution. So the big boosters could just pay these things off? Anyway, come on North Carolina, we're waiting.....

 

They need to punish the Head Coaches harder if they really want to deter this type of activity. Pitino is still going to collect his millions this year whether they play in the NCAA tournament or not. He may lose an opportunity for tournament bonuses, but he still has more Karen Sypher activity hush money than he will ever spend.

 

If they had wins vacated, scholarships reduced, or had to recruit with restrictions for a few years, they would probably take these actions by the NCAA a lot more seriously.

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

They need to punish the Head Coaches harder if they really want to deter this type of activity. Pitino is still going to collect his millions this year whether they play in the NCAA tournament or not. He may lose an opportunity for tournament bonuses, but he still has more Karen Sypher activity hush money than he will ever spend.

If they had wins vacated, scholarships reduced, or had to recruit with restrictions for a few years, they would probably take these actions by the NCAA a lot more seriously.

I get what you are saying but what good does vacating wins do? Even if they determined the championship was these players and they vacate the season, everybody still remembers, coach was still paid, you can't change the past... In my opinion you can only punish the future... Scholarship reductions, fines, bans, coach suspensions etc... But gotta start them in the future, not 2/3 through the season

[Brass Cannon 24,977]

Oh you can change the past. You think anybody 20 years from now will remember Syracuse cheated? Nope because the NCAA swept it under the rug

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

Not quite the same in my opinion... Maybe I'm wrong...

Has anybody forgotten the Fab 5? Although they never existed?

[Bowhunter 2,720]

Look at what happened to us for too many phone calls. That's nothing compared to fixing grades or buying prostitutes for students. If any of this stuff happens at IU, we would be banned for a long time and lose a coaching staff.

[IUaic 90]

I get what you are saying but what good does vacating wins do? Even if they determined the championship was these players and they vacate the season, everybody still remembers, coach was still paid, you can't change the past... In my opinion you can only punish the future... Scholarship reductions, fines, bans, coach suspensions etc... But gotta start them in the future, not 2/3 through the season

 

I was thinking of what it did to Paterno's status as winningest coach ever when a huge chunk of his wins were vacated - but were later reinstated.

 

Maybe instead of that, make them ineligible for the Hall of Fame, or remove them from the Hall of Fame if they have already been inducted? So far, the punishment hasn't been harsh enough yet, imo.

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

I was thinking of what it did to Paterno's status as winningest coach ever when a huge chunk of his wins were vacated - but were later reinstated.

Maybe instead of that, make them ineligible for the Hall of Fame, or remove them from the Hall of Fame if they have already been inducted? So far, the punishment hasn't been harsh enough yet, imo.

if proven that the coach knew I agree... Also think current players involved should be held accountable even if they are at a different program... If they accepted the benefits they need to have their eligibility revoked at least for some period of time... Suspend all involved if they're still in the college system anywhere, and then punish the university into the future.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Look at what happened to us for too many phone calls. That's nothing compared to fixing grades or buying prostitutes for students. If any of this stuff happens at IU, we would be banned for a long time and lose a coaching staff.

I know it's a little off-topic, but since this comes up a lot in these discussions (and has before in this thread) I just think it would be beneficial to remind people...

 

The NCAA has not let UNC or Louisville off the hook for anything. There is absolutely no indication UNC or Louisville will not be punished by the NCAA other than the story line of "the NCAA never punishes blue chip programs". The NCAA is not a monolithic entity and these sweeping generalizations are not necessarily wrong, but they also aren't facts.

 

Last I heard/checked, UNC is still in the late discovery phase of their proceeding with hundreds of charges leveled in the Notice of Allegations and hundreds of thousands of documents being sorted through. The NCAA optimistically expected to be able to provide a better picture of UNC's situation sooner, but some self-reported infractions late last year resulted in delay as they now have to be included in the investigation. While this is a quasi-legal proceeding, I can say from similar experiences (as offensive as it may be to relate them) cases the size of UNCs could take years and no one involved would blink. The speed at which the NCAA renders a decision and then goes through the appeals process is ridiculously fast by comparison.

 

Louisville is even earlier in their proceeding, I have not heard they even received their Notice of Allegations in this case. They'll also be hammered hard because they are still under investigation for football recruiting violations. Pitino is on the hook with the NCAA unless he can affirmatively prove otherwise because there is an rebuttable presumption of knowledge that says head coaches know what their underlings are doing. So, Pitino has to show he did not know what was done in his administration.

 

Syracuse is an example of where this was recently applied (JB's 9-game ban). While Syracuse's punishment may seem light, it's actually one of the harshest in recent NCAA history. As people have discussed throughout this thread, part of the problem is there is so little you can really do to punish coaches and others who benefited from the infractions. Players who benefited are already gone so, maybe vacate their wins. Current players are viewed as being punished with scholarship reductions or post-season bans. Coaches are insulated from personal liability and can continue to coach as long as people will pay them. 

[Brass Cannon 24,977]

I know it's a little off-topic, but since this comes up a lot in these discussions (and has before in this thread) I just think it would be beneficial to remind people...

 

The NCAA has not let UNC or Louisville off the hook for anything. There is absolutely no indication UNC or Louisville will not be punished by the NCAA other than the story line of "the NCAA never punishes blue chip programs". The NCAA is not a monolithic entity and these sweeping generalizations are not necessarily wrong, but they also aren't facts.

 

Last I heard/checked, UNC is still in the late discovery phase of their proceeding with hundreds of charges leveled in the Notice of Allegations and hundreds of thousands of documents being sorted through. The NCAA optimistically expected to be able to provide a better picture of UNC's situation sooner, but some self-reported infractions late last year resulted in delay as they now have to be included in the investigation. While this is a quasi-legal proceeding, I can say from similar experiences (as offensive as it may be to relate them) cases the size of UNCs could take years and no one involved would blink. The speed at which the NCAA renders a decision and then goes through the appeals process is ridiculously fast by comparison.

 

Louisville is even earlier in their proceeding, I have not heard they even received their Notice of Allegations in this case. They'll also be hammered hard because they are still under investigation for football recruiting violations. Pitino is on the hook with the NCAA unless he can affirmatively prove otherwise because there is an rebuttable presumption of knowledge that says head coaches know what their underlings are doing. So, Pitino has to show he did not know what was done in his administration.

 

Syracuse is an example of where this was recently applied (JB's 9-game ban). While Syracuse's punishment may seem light, it's actually one of the harshest in recent NCAA history. As people have discussed throughout this thread, part of the problem is there is so little you can really do to punish coaches and others who benefited from the infractions. Players who benefited are already gone so, maybe vacate their wins. Current players are viewed as being punished with scholarship reductions or post-season bans. Coaches are insulated from personal liability and can continue to coach as long as people will pay them. 

 

I think the Syracuse situation is why people have no faith in the NCAA actually punishing UNC and Louisville.  Syracuse cheated to win a championship the NCAA vacated Wins, but would not vacate the championship assuming the NCAA holds to that then UNC and Louisville will get comparable slaps on the wrist compared to what they have earned.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

I think the Syracuse situation is why people have no faith in the NCAA actually punishing UNC and Louisville.  Syracuse cheated to win a championship the NCAA vacated Wins, but would not vacate the championship assuming the NCAA holds to that then UNC and Louisville will get comparable slaps on the wrist compared to what they have earned.

The championship was not vacated because it took place the year before all of the serious events. If it had taken place two years later, it would be vacated. The only allegations regarding the 2002-03 season are extra basketball tickets being given away. Billy Edelin was part of the championship team, but after he was suspended the first time he complied with all NCAA rules to be reinstated to that team. The alleged improper conduct began after he won a championship. So, saying they cheated to win a championship isn't exactly true unless you know something the NCAA doesn't.

 

"the institution will vacate all wins from the academic years 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2010-11 and 2011-12 in men's basketball and 2004-05, 2005-06 and 2006-07 in football in which student-athletes 1 through 10 competed while ineligible. This order of vacation includes all regular season competition, conference tournaments and NCAA postseason competition." This is the second most vacated wins of all time.

 

JB was forbidden from participating in any team activities for the first half of the conference season, tied for the harshest individual punishment issued on a coach short of a show-cause penalty. He did not receive a show cause penalty, because there was no proof of actual knowledge, just the imputed knowledge of a head coach.

 

The recruitment penalties were heavy too, besides the publicized loss of 12 scholarships they lost 2 off-campus recruiters, have to give all visiting recruits in football or basketball full information about the violations and penalties. Syracuse also revamped huge portions of the programs in question which the NCAA really cares about.

 

Syracuse's violations were far less severe than what UNC is accused of too. Louisville's are probably less than Syracuse's by the end, though I'm interested to see exactly what allegations they go with. 

 

Here is a PDF of the Syracuse decision, beginning on page 62.

 

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Syracuse%20Final%20Public%20Infractions%20Decision%20%28Corrected%29.pdf