State of Recruiting/Do Rankings Matter?

[Old Friend 8,389]

6 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

This is the point I made from the beginning. Even acknowledged that Phinisee could be totally undervalued. Glad someone has reading comprehension ability...

He makes my point.  You can stop the insults whenever.  One guy agreeing with you doesn't make you right.   Speaking of reading comprehension....take a look through this thing.  Many people agree on both sides, and someone made the point that the truth is somewhere in the middle.   Which means - as I said yesterday - this garbage can stop and we can talk about basketball.  Phinisee is an example; not an outlier.    And HoosierX, I only mentioned I knew him because he and I have had discussions about this, and he was a guy who was part of the system....which is why I said my opinion on it was based on experience.   He passed away this year.

[Stromboli 6,076]

I'm generally tired of this discussion, but want to chime in on what USPSHoosier said.  I attended maybe 5-7 hours of games over the course of 3 days in Westfield, too.  It was very easy to see which players controlled the action on the floor.  Garland was absolutely one of those guys.  To mirror what USPS said, Coby White was tremendous.  I wasn't there to watch him, and immediately it was evident that he was the best player on the floor.  I look him up, and he was ranked in the 50s, but already committed to UNC.  Ol' Roy had picked him out and locked him up long ago.  He's now jumped up to maybe #24 composite.  Another one is the little PG that committed to MSU.  He's a little white kid that looks a bit more Rose Hulman than March Madness.  But after my judgment, he went out there and was in the middle of everything, affecting the game.  Come to find out later he was already locked up.

Put me in the camp that rankings are an excellent tool.  They are identified players that have skills and put up numbers.  These things are great indicators of future success.  Obviously not everything.  That's why we play the game.  That's why March is so much fun.  Who doesn't watch a 12/5 matchup with a little bit of bloodlust?  Who doesn't love the articles about Duke's team of 5-stars not meshing and being pretty beatable?  And yet, we had Yogi, a 5-star, leading us for 4 years, and he was totally irreplaceable.  Robert Johnson, a solid 4-star, has been a contributor for years.  Josh Newkirk, a lower ranked player, plays a position that needs improvement.  It is what it is.  

All of it, both the recruiting of highly ranked players and the rise of under-ranked, makes the game fun.

[Uspshoosier 45,686]

I'm generally tired of this discussion, but want to chime in on what USPSHoosier said.  I attended maybe 5-7 hours of games over the course of 3 days in Westfield, too.  It was very easy to see which players controlled the action on the floor.  Garland was absolutely one of those guys.  To mirror what USPS said, Coby White was tremendous.  I wasn't there to watch him, and immediately it was evident that he was the best player on the floor.  I look him up, and he was ranked in the 50s, but already committed to UNC.  Ol' Roy had picked him out and locked him up long ago.  He's now jumped up to maybe #24 composite.  Another one is the little PG that committed to MSU.  He's a little white kid that looks a bit more Rose Hulman than March Madness.  But after my judgment, he went out there and was in the middle of everything, affecting the game.  Come to find out later he was already locked up.
Put me in the camp that rankings are an excellent tool.  They are identified players that have skills and put up numbers.  These things are great indicators of future success.  Obviously not everything.  That's why we play the game.  That's why March is so much fun.  Who doesn't watch a 12/5 matchup with a little bit of bloodlust?  Who doesn't love the articles about Duke's team of 5-stars not meshing and being pretty beatable?  And yet, we had Yogi, a 5-star, leading us for 4 years, and he was totally irreplaceable.  Robert Johnson, a solid 4-star, has been a contributor for years.  Josh Newkirk, a lower ranked player, plays a position that needs improvement.  It is what it is.  
All of it, both the recruiting of highly ranked players and the rise of under-ranked, makes the game fun.

Excellent points and I wished I known you were there so we could of met up and watched games. For me Garland was a interesting case over in Westfield. He had a couple games where he didn't look good at all. One game in particular against BABC(Swider) if that was the only game I watched of his I would of thought the unranked PG for BABC was the 5 star stud. That kid outplayed him the whole game and Garland and wiseman Bradley beal team was down by 30. However he had some games before and after that where he was the best player on the court


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[Old Friend 8,389]

You're right, Strom.  My last comment on it is this.  Misunderstanding may have rules this day, but if we're talking "general tool" as a way to put kids in a "top 150" category, I'd say the system is okay for that.  Not perfect and not close; but a general tool.  Okay.  I can get with that.   My point has not been "general," but more on specificity.    How does the existing system (or any national system) accurately predict the order?   Or even compare the #9 shooting guard with the #16 shooting guard?    Will the #9 kid make his team exponentially better than the #16?    No way to tell.  Way too many variables.   Is he really 7 spots better?  Based on what?

Robert Phinisee, who started this discussion, is better than the #17 point guard, and my guess is he'll finish higher than that.   Many people doing the ranking have never seen him, and based his ranking on his production.    RP is a kid that "could" look to score far more than he does.  He is far more explosive than he shows most of the time.  You really have to watch him play to know how good he is.  Same with Aaron Henry.  Once guys see those kids, their opinion changes, but all along, they've ranked him based on subjective and intangible data, which makes the system crap (to maintain my word) in my opinion.  Fire away....and Go IU

[Stromboli 6,076]

Edit:  Reply to USPS

Yep, I didn't watch that game but I remember seeing the box score.  He kinda disappeared.  He's done that a few times.  Hopefully there will be another event at Grand Park and we can meet up.  I'm going to try to go to the Snow event in December, too. 

To Old Friend:  I think everything has been said already, and your viewpoint is really important.  This kind of spirited discourse is why forums exist.  Specifically for Phinisee, I can't wait to see him play.  Reports like yours definitely bring some excitement.  I was really bummed that we missed on Henry.  His impact on the game goes well beyond just points.  

[ALASKA HOOSIER 11,276]

Have I told you guys/gals how much I love you today?

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

He makes my point (1).  You can stop the insults whenever.  One guy agreeing with you doesn't make you right.   Speaking of reading comprehension....take a look through this thing.  Many people agree on both sides, and someone made the point that the truth is somewhere in the middle (2).   Which means - as I said yesterday - this garbage can stop and we can talk about basketball.  Phinisee is an example; not an outlier (3).    And HoosierX, I only mentioned I knew him because he and I have had discussions about this, and he was a guy who was part of the system....which is why I said my opinion on it was based on experience (4).   He passed away this year.

1) No he doesn't. Your point from the start has been "ratings are crap". Wayne directly refutes that claim in his post.

2) Look through this thread without trying to justify your position and try to understand that my argument does not invalidate any of your examples. It also doesn't invalidate the fact that Garry Donna might have been putting out crap ratings, because he is one guy and ratings are much more of a consensus measurement.

3) Robert Phinisee is nothing except a player ranked in the 100-200 range by most services, who we hope and believe has potential to outplay his ranking. We'll see what he is starting next year.

4) There's psychological concept of heuristics and hubris. Your personal experiences have driven your conclusion and your overconfidence that your experiences are representative of the entire population.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

13 minutes ago, ALASKA HOOSIER said:

Have I told you guys/gals how much I love you today?

Must be getting cold and lonely up there...

[Uspshoosier 45,686]

The Henry rankings is an interesting one. Watching him his sophomore year nothing jumped out at my to say he was a High major recruit and the scouting services ranked him accordingly. Even at the beginning of his junior year nothing to me suggested that he was anything then a mid major recruit. Keep in mind if you say that scouts miss evaluated him then you have to say every High major coach in the Midwest miss evaluated him in the early years. The coach that should get props to is Greg Lansing from Indiana st. He was the only head coach I saw at his games his sophomore and junior year's. On of the best things locally I have witnessed in regards to a local recruit was seeing the light bulb go off in henry and improve over the course of his junior year and watching him transform into a High major recruit He was a totally different player at the end of the year. From the state tournament on it was clear that he would be better then his rankings would suggest. Personally I still wanted to see him during his senior year to see if he could keep up the momentum. I still think there are things he needs to improve on. Usually if a recruit cuts Indiana front their list I won't watch them as much locally but in Henry's case I will still go watch him play third upcoming year


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[Class of '66 Old Fart 84,773]

1 hour ago, Stromboli said:

I'm generally tired of this discussion,

Yeah, me too.  It's a message board and people are encouraged to participate but it sure seems like we've messaged this topic to death.

So for a change of pace even though it's completely off-topic.  Walking Boot has been active in this thread and it made me wonder - has the walking boot that seemed so prelavent during the FCTC tenure been retired?  I don't recall seeing any pictures or commentary that any of our players have been spotted wandering about in 'The Boot' this summer.

 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

44 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

Yeah, me too.  It's a message board and people are encouraged to participate but it sure seems like we've messaged this topic to death.

So for a change of pace even though it's completely off-topic.  Walking Boot has been active in this thread and it made me wonder - has the walking boot that seemed so prelavent during the FCTC tenure been retired?  I don't recall seeing any pictures or commentary that any of our players have been spotted wandering about in 'The Boot' this summer.

 

Can't even change my name to Sand Pit of Doom. Maybe Frown of Concealed Joy? Maybe just go back to Crean Apologist or Jurkin on the Court

[mdn82 25,510]

Yeah, me too.  It's a message board and people are encouraged to participate but it sure seems like we've messaged this topic to death.
So for a change of pace even though it's completely off-topic.  Walking Boot has been active in this thread and it made me wonder - has the walking boot that seemed so prelavent during the FCTC tenure been retired?  I don't recall seeing any pictures or commentary that any of our players have been spotted wandering about in 'The Boot' this summer.
 

Lol come on man. You know the early commits threw things off. This discussion usually doesn't happen until most everyone is committed. Usually we kick the summer off with a RMK thread that splinter into 5. Then recruiting live periods. OVs. Then rankings don't matter threads. By the time that one runs its course its practice time. Gonna be a long month. We got ambitious.


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[mdn82 25,510]

Lol come on man. You know the early commits threw things off. This discussion usually doesn't happen until most everyone is committed. Usually we kick the summer off with a RMK thread that splinter into 5. Then recruiting live periods. OVs. Then rankings don't matter threads. By the time that one runs its course its practice time. Gonna be a long month. We got ambitious.


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I should add before anyone flips a lid I was joking on this post. The coaching change and early commits did move our typical annual summer discussions up. That and more than typical traffic due to the excitement.


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[schoosier 3,480]

2 hours ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Can't even change my name to Sand Pit of Doom. Maybe Frown of Concealed Joy? Maybe just go back to Crean Apologist or Jurkin on the Court

I vote for Crean Apologist. You and I had some interesting discussions about him. Time to experience some real coaching now, and I expect to see fewer discussions on flash cards, Diet Coke, and cheerleading this year.

[mdn82 25,510]

I vote for Crean Apologist. You and I had some interesting discussions about him. Time to experience some real coaching now, and I expect to see fewer discussions on flash cards, Diet Coke, and cheerleading this year.

Speaking of cheerleading I hope we start to up our game. We haven't exactly had a top quality staff the last few years. I was in Mackey a couple of short years ago for an IU game and came away ashamed. How in the hell does that school have finer cheerleaders than is? Winning solves everything right?


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[gfunk69 118]

Speaking of cheerleading I hope we start to up our game. We haven't exactly had a top quality staff the last few years. I was in Mackey a couple of short years ago for an IU game and came away ashamed. How in the hell does that school have finer cheerleaders than is? Winning solves everything right?


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We won a national championship for cheerleading the past two years

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,386]

We won a national championship for cheerleading the past two years

Pretty sure he isn't referring to cheerleading skill.


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[gfunk69 118]

I know but ours are all still hot and ours win awards. I think part of it is the uniforms. I like PUs more than ours and generally everything looks good in black

 

[gfunk69 118]

Pretty sure he isn't referring to cheerleading skill.


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I know but ours are all still hot and ours win awards. I think part of it is the uniforms. I like PUs more than ours and generally everything looks good in black


Didn't see where to delete my duplicate on the app

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

1 hour ago, schoosier said:

I vote for Crean Apologist. You and I had some interesting discussions about him. Time to experience some real coaching now, and I expect to see fewer discussions on flash cards, Diet Coke, and cheerleading this year.

Yup, I took longer to come around. Was probably blinded as I was in school 2010-2014 which were probably the highs of the Crean era.