Recruiting Momentum

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

we need a point guard, there is a big need. You don't wait to replace a point guard once the only one you have is gone, you do it a year or two early. And no, Robert Johnson is not a point guard. Yogi is either gone after this season or after next and we have no replacement for him. Have plenty of wings though

Yep. We talk alot about a big but a point guard is gonna be an issue pretty quick.

[maxwell 605]

right, I'm not hard-set on my opinions. I am constantly taking in information and reevaluating my stances. It's definitely been a roller coaster ride for these 7 years. Lots of ups and downs. We've got to iron that out.

I understand where you're coming from here; however, there are many top programs that are in the same boat.  This is a recruiting thread, but if people can't get excited about the development of 7'3" wingspan Holt over the next 2 yrs, something is wrong.

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

I've said this before, but, these kids aren't auction items, going to the best recruiter/coach/salesperson. The recruits have their own filters to run a scenario through. They may want to stay close to home, go far away from home, prefer a certain style of education (believe it or not, education matters to most kids), be partial to smaller or bigger schools, etc. Not every miss is on the coach. Finally, for every recruit on that list, EVERY other coach in America missed him, except the one that signed him (I know, some went to the same team, but my point stands).

Good points. Can't argue with any of them. I guess I just can't help but go back to the fact that there is such a wide open opportunity  for a low post kid to move right in and play major cbb. You would think kids would line up for that.

[hoosierpap 14,300]

Miss on Bryant, and it'll be interesting to see who the next man up is. Pap/Mods have any ideas?

IU's involved with a few JUCO's. I can't remember their names off the top of my head but I'll try and get them either to the board or to CCG soon. 

 

What's interesting on this entire topic is that the recruiting momentum has gotten better. IU was truly in a bad place on the recruiting scene last spring but Chuck has really gotten them back into things with a number of prospects. Is IU lighting the world on fire? No. But it really isn't as bad as it was. Those lists about who IU has "missed" on is sort of off base, imo. That's recruiting, that happens. Crean uses a shotgun approach. He isn't going to get a very big percentage of the recruits he targets, and he knows that. Mamasa had a good post in this thread about the complexity of each recruitment that should be noted as part of this. See that post, also. And if you think Crean "settled" for OG, I have news for you. Coaches don't look at rankings and Crean pushed for OG as hard as any recruit over the summer. Now, the jury is out on his evaluation there but it isn't like Crean settled on OG.

 

To the question, because there is no denying if you look at the recruiting momentum over the last 2 years it has declined. I think it's several things but it starts with losing and branches off in different directions from there.

 

First, Crean doesn't handle failure the best from what I hear. You can sort of see it even in press conferences. He is tough to play for, tough to work for, and tough to be around when things aren't going well. I could provide stories and examples but I'm really not trying to turn this into a bash session because this place needs no more ammunition in the anti-crean gun. Anyways, the talk gets around. Note that most coaches are tough to play for but some of this stuff is just a little weird. 

 

Second, I've heard several times from various people that schools are really letting recruits know of the uncertainty around the program. I've said several, several, times that IU needs to win games and that will begin to go away - and it has to some degree. Within the state, Crean really rubbed a lot of coaches wrong as I'm sure most of you know. He has made significant strides in the last few months in mending those relationships which could pay dividends if he is in fact the coach for the '17 class. 

 

The truth is things aren't as bad as they were last spring. IU is in it for Bryant. I can't pretend to know what he is thinking and my gut says he goes elsewhere, but it won't be because of the stuff I mentioned above.  

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

I agree with the poster who said that the word is out on Crean. It seems that all the good to great prospects, the aau circuit and opposing coaching staffs know that he isn't a very good coach and that he is a dead man walking.

It's like nobody in the basketball world takes Crean seriously. I'm not sure what indiana is doing here. It's not like he has top recruiting classes coming in over the next couple of years. I just don't see other top flight programs putting up with this.

Maybe that's the problem. Maybe indiana no longer views itself as a top flight ptogram.

You bring up the AAU circuit and that may be a good point. Do we need a better connection there?

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

IU's involved with a few JUCO's. I can't remember their names off the top of my head but I'll try and get them either to the board or to CCG soon. 

 

What's interesting on this entire topic is that the recruiting momentum has gotten better. IU was truly in a bad place on the recruiting scene last spring but Chuck has really gotten them back into things with a number of prospects. Is IU lighting the world on fire? No. But it really isn't as bad as it was. Those lists about who IU has "missed" on is sort of off base, imo. That's recruiting, that happens. Crean uses a shotgun approach. He isn't going to get a very big percentage of the recruits he targets, and he knows that. Mamasa had a good post in this thread about the complexity of each recruitment that should be noted as part of this. See that post, also. And if you think Crean "settled" for OG, I have news for you. Coaches don't look at rankings and Crean pushed for OG as hard as any recruit over the summer. Now, the jury is out on his evaluation there but it isn't like Crean settled on OG.

 

To the question, because there is no denying if you look at the recruiting momentum over the last 2 years it has declined. I think it's several things but it starts with losing and branches off in different directions from there.

 

First, Crean doesn't handle failure the best from what I hear. You can sort of see it even in press conferences. He is tough to play for, tough to work for, and tough to be around when things aren't going well. I could provide stories and examples but I'm really not trying to turn this into a bash session because this place needs no more ammunition in the anti-crean gun. Anyways, the talk gets around. Note that most coaches are tough to play for but some of this stuff is just a little weird. 

 

Second, I've heard several times from various people that schools are really letting recruits know of the uncertainty around the program. I've said several, several, times that IU needs to win games and that will begin to go away - and it has to some degree. Within the state, Crean really rubbed a lot of coaches wrong as I'm sure most of you know. He has made significant strides in the last few months in mending those relationships which could pay dividends if he is in fact the coach for the '17 class. 

 

The truth is things aren't as bad as they were last spring. IU is in it for Bryant. I can't pretend to know what he is thinking and my gut says he goes elsewhere, but it won't be because of the stuff I mentioned above.  

Great info. Exactly the types of things I wanted this thread to bring out. Edit:Really curious about the "weird" stuff now. :yes:

[HoosierAloha 30,077]

I believe some of the recruiting gurus put it out there recruits were skeptical because of the uncertainty of Crean's future.  A big reason recruits commit is for the coach.  Coach has shown the ability to assist wings to the NBA.  The result of coach going after top classes has hurt us too.  The 'movement' hurt IU a ton and set the program back a year or two.  Stability and consistency are needed for recruiting and to elevate the program.  We've seen coach construct a team that is capable of competing.  That team was made up of a variety of recruits.  I believe we need that in every class regardless of who is coaching.  I believe coach lost the team last year and is still working to reclaim it and himself as a coach/recruiter.

 

What I believe our recruiting needs to look like annually.

1 each - humble and hardworking top flight recruit   (Zeller, Yogi, hopefuly JBJ)

This group of players can only be expected to stay a year or two but are hungry to be coached

 

2 to 3 each - humble and hardworking 4ish star type recruits (Watford, Hulls, Oladipo, Sheehey, hopefully Hartman, Troy, RoJo, Holt)

This group is 3-4 year players and the foundation and leaders of the team

 

1 each - gamble on a questionable recruit that has potential

This group may or may not be around all 4 years

[hoosha61 386]

The word is out on Crean. After losing to Syracuse, IU will never get another blue chip player to sign. Ever.

This is not acceptable at Indiana University! Indiana University deserves better, damnit! This is IU basketball, an elite top 5 program.

Are you kidding? Ever? Didn't he get JBJ after the Cuse game? Wasn't he a McDonald's AA? This could be the dumbest post I have read to date.

[hoosha61 386]

Theo Pinson
Trey Lyles
Isaiah Whitehead
Devin Robinson
Dwayne Morgan
Goodluck Okonoboh
Leron Black
Dion Wiley
Jakeenan Gant
Ahmed Hill
Chinanu Onauku
Phil Booth
Marvin Clark
Tum Tum Nairn
Donovan Mitchell
Jalen Coleman
Malachi Richardson
Jaquan Lyle
Ray Spalding
Daniel Giddens
Jimmy Whitt
Matt McQuaid
Bryant Crawford
Shake Milton
Kenny Williams
Eron Harris
Trevor Thompson
Anthony Lee

You could compile a list like this for nearly every school. There is only so many spots available.

[JSHoosier 20,703]

Are you kidding? Ever? Didn't he get JBJ after the Cuse game? Wasn't he a McDonald's AA? This could be the dumbest post I have read to date.

He's not being serious. He's doing the same sarcastic passive-aggressive stuff he always resorts to when someone has the audacity to be critical of Tom Crean.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,992]

Good stuff pap! Although not surefire superstars, I am very happy to be adding OG and Juwan to the squad. They seem like high upside players who want to play for IU. OG could be a longer Devyn Marble type player. Juwan has a more athletic CWAT feel. Good additions. TBryant is still the perfect fit to round out the class but my confidence in adding him is at about 1%.

My bigger concern has been having 3 open roster spots to add a BIG difference maker and our inability to do it. I don't care who gets the blame but it was a major gaff. Our ceiling is much lower this season by not having a rim protector. I also realize that all schools have misses, as many on here have pointed out, but rarely do other schools sign 2 guys incapable of helping as a result of their misses. So we had the end of 2014 and all of 2015 to address our biggest need and have failed in my estimation so far.

It's going to be a very interesting off season as many questions will need answered.

[FKfootball 1,046]

We need to follow the OSU model. Matta really isnt a great X's and O's guy. But he loads up with 4 star guys every year. And hes been able to get some big time 5 star guys on occasion.

[FKfootball 1,046]

Good stuff pap! Although not surefire superstars, I am very happy to be adding OG and Juwan to the squad. They seem like high upside players who want to play for IU. OG could be a longer Devyn Marble type player. Juwan has a more athletic CWAT feel. Good additions. TBryant is still the perfect fit to round out the class but my confidence in adding him is at about 1%.

My bigger concern has been having 3 open roster spots to add a BIG difference maker and our inability to do it. I don't care who gets the blame but it was a major gaff. Our ceiling is much lower this season by not having a rim protector. I also realize that all schools have misses, as many on here have pointed out, but rarely do other schools sign 2 guys incapable of helping as a result of their misses. So we had the end of 2014 and all of 2015 to address our biggest need and have failed in my estimation so far.

It's going to be a very interesting off season as many questions will need answered.

Being oversigned by 2 is killing us with Bryant. Giving scholarships to guys like April and Priller can hurt in the long run.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,992]

We need to follow the OSU model. Matta really isnt a great X's and O's guy. But he loads up with 4 star guys every year. And hes been able to get some big time 5 star guys on occasion.

i would be thrilled if we could replicate OSUs recruiting results.

[prodigal hoosier 27]

I think this thread is mislabeled and should've been titled "Unbalanced Recruiting" instead. I'm a big critic of Crean and don't think he is the guy to get it done long term, especially given the constant positional roster holes from unbalanced recruiting. But I have to defend him somewhat on missing out on that big list of targets posted before. A lot goes on behind the scenes that we will never know about which ends the recruitment of kids pretty fast. Lyles being "bought and paid for" is a good example. Not wanting to give a kid's high school coach/handler/dad an asst coaching job is another (Whitehead). Not being able to lower admit standards for guys who can't get even a failing SAT/ACT score is one too (Lyle). Character issues come up as well. If you think IU should be doing those things, then you absolutely should be pissed about missing out on some of those kids. IU isn't perfect but the program isn't as willing as others to get its hands dirty. That said, the seeming inability to look two years down the road and say "huh? I guess we don't have a 5 or a 1 in the pipeline so I guess we need one" is very troubling. But to think we missed out on guys we never wanted because of Crean is not a fair criticism.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,992]

I've not heard this. Please explain.

they were High School friends from the same area. Played pickup ball together etc. When Vonleh would go home they played together. Inside scoop to me was that Vonleh wasn't happy @ IU early in the year. The quotes and actions at the end of the season (TO ME) corroborate the things I was hearing throughout the season. At this point it's conjecture, but I think it's fair to assume NV shared his experiences with GO, not helping our overall cause.

That team had tons of issues and I'm not sure exactly what turned off NV exactly earlier in the year except just hearing he wasn't happy. The post year quote was with his AAU coach more or less saying NV could have done more and wasn't utilized properly.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Good stuff pap! Although not surefire superstars, I am very happy to be adding OG and Juwan to the squad. They seem like high upside players who want to play for IU. OG could be a longer Devyn Marble type player. Juwan has a more athletic CWAT feel. Good additions. TBryant is still the perfect fit to round out the class but my confidence in adding him is at about 1%.

My bigger concern has been having 3 open roster spots to add a BIG difference maker and our inability to do it. I don't care who gets the blame but it was a major gaff. Our ceiling is much lower this season by not having a rim protector. I also realize that all schools have misses, as many on here have pointed out, but rarely do other schools sign 2 guys incapable of helping as a result of their misses. So we had the end of 2014 and all of 2015 to address our biggest need and have failed in my estimation so far.

It's going to be a very interesting off season as many questions will need answered.

As mentioned earlier, I would bet that the departure of Kenny Johnson had something to do with our inability to fill those roster spots with "better" players. As i understand it, KJ was the lead for a lot of the recruiting efforts, and the timing of his departure sort of killed our spring recruiting as Crean and the rest of the staff had to step up late to make a recruiting push. Chuck Martin didn't get a foothold until late summer, added Emmitt Holt to our roster, and has since gotten us in with a lot of NY recruits, including Rawle Alkins. 

 

Based on all that has been discussed, I believe the reasons for a cold recruiting stretch can be summarized like this:

 

1) We weren't winning last year. Never looks good during recruiting when you miss the tournament.

2) Our point man for most of our recruiting efforts left during a time when we needed him the most, and the staff struggled to fill the gap he left.

3) Offseason issues raised red flags at the beginning of the fall recruiting period. These should have less relevance now as the program is putting together a pretty good season, and Devin Davis is making a strong recovery.

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

they were High School friends from the same area. Played pickup ball together etc. When Vonleh would go home they played together. Inside scoop to me was that Vonleh wasn't happy @ IU early in the year. The quotes and actions at the end of the season (TO ME) corroborate the things I was hearing throughout the season. At this point it's conjecture, but I think it's fair to assume NV shared his experiences with GO, not helping our overall cause.

That team had tons of issues and I'm not sure exactly what turned off NV exactly earlier in the year except just hearing he wasn't happy. The post year quote was with his AAU coach more or less saying NV could have done more and wasn't utilized properly.

Thanks. Yea I remember something about the post season quote but didnt know GO and NV were close. Certainly sucks when your lottery big is working against you. Not too sure that happens too much in cbb. You bring a lot of great info. to this site, btw.

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

As mentioned earlier, I would bet that the departure of Kenny Johnson had something to do with our inability to fill those roster spots with "better" players. As i understand it, KJ was the lead for a lot of the recruiting efforts, and the timing of his departure sort of killed our spring recruiting as Crean and the rest of the staff had to step up late to make a recruiting push. Chuck Martin didn't get a foothold until late summer, added Emmitt Holt to our roster, and has since gotten us in with a lot of NY recruits, including Rawle Alkins. 

 

Based on all that has been discussed, I believe the reasons for a cold recruiting stretch can be summarized like this:

 

1) We weren't winning last year. Never looks good during recruiting when you miss the tournament.

2) Our point man for most of our recruiting efforts left during a time when we needed him the most, and the staff struggled to fill the gap he left.

3) Offseason issues raised red flags at the beginning of the fall recruiting period. These should have less relevance now as the program is putting together a pretty good season, and Devin Davis is making a strong recovery.

I'm like you, wondering where we go if we miss Bryant in the spring. Juco gets us a guy who should be ready to play IMO. Interested to see names Pap comes up with there.

[Alford Bailey 12,424]

Being oversigned by 2 is killing us with Bryant. Giving scholarships to guys like April and Priller can hurt in the long run.

I dont like oversigning but I dont think it is the issue here. Kids are gonna leave. Mom is the biggest issue with Bryant and I dont know that you overcome that one.