NBA Thread

[Crimson and Cream 5,709]

Even as a LeBron hater I'll admit he can't be blamed for this. Now granted, his defense has been extremely lackadaisical at times and also him not demanding the ball at the end of the game is a big difference between him and guys like MJ, Kobe, Larry, etc. But he's been putting up monster numbers, and hasn't gotten any consistent help from anyone. Thompson is utter trash, JR is almost worse with his putrid shot selection and terrible defense, Love can't even play his role of hit the open 3's, Kyrie always goes back to his weakness of chucking up forced 3's (0/7 tonight), and the bench did nothing at all. As a Pacers fan though I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed seeing them get blasted ;)

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

Steph Curry is the most disrespectful, childish player in the NBA. Zero class. 

 

[Brass Cannon 24,069]

14 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Steph Curry is the most disrespectful, childish player in the NBA. Zero class. 

 

Lol no. Lance Stephenson by a mile. 

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

4 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Lol no. Lance Stephenson by a mile. 

Lol forgot about Lance. I like him but he's a goon. This is the kind of immature crap I'd expect from someone like him, not a two-time MVP, face of the franchise like Steph. 

[HoosierAloha 29,957]

I'm surprised Curry didn't run over and beg the refs for a tech when LeBron slammed the ball down.

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

I've noticed that when Jordan fans say that he's the best they always either say "6 rings" or they point to things that can't be measured. "LeBron doesn't have a killer instinct like Jordan did." "LeBron doesn't have the clutch gene like Jordan did." They never want to look at the stats, they want to make up qualities that can't be measured and say that Jordan has them and LeBron doesn't. So, let's look at the stats.

So many people act like rings are the end-all, be all, but I disagree. Too many variables go into winning rings to use that as the final barometer. Let's compare Jordan's stats to LeBron's. I'll take LeBron's stat-line from this year's playoffs and then take Jordan's best statistic in each category (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, field goal percentage and 3 point percentage) from his second three-peat and compare the two. 

LeBron: 32.4/8.8/7.6/2.0/1.4 on 56.3/41.5 percent shooting.

Jordan: 32.4/7.9/4.8/1.8/0.9 on 46.2/40.3 percent shooting.

LeBron is averaging the same number of points while shooting 10% higher from the field, grabbing more rebounds, dishing out more assists, making more steals, and blocking more shots. Keep in mind these are LeBron's stats from one playoffs while these are Jordan's best numbers from three separate playoffs. 

"Well, that's the playoffs, let's compare the two's numbers in the Finals. That's what matters." Okay, let's.

LeBron's 2017 Finals: 32.0/12.3/10.3/1.3/1.3 on 55.4/38.9 percent shooting.

Jordan's 1996 Finals: 27.3/5.3/4.2/1.7/0.2 on 41.5/31.6 percent shooting.

Jordan's 1997 Finals: 32.3/7.0/6.9/1.2/0.8 on 45.6/32.0 percent shooting.

Jordan's 1998 Finals: 33.5/4.0/2.3/1.8/0.7 on 42.7/30.8 percent shooting.

For as much as Jordan's fans talk about him and his greatness I was really expecting better numbers. This notion that LeBron chokes in the Finals while Jordan excelled is utter nonsense. LeBron is playing better in defeat than Jordan did in victory. It's almost as if it takes more than one player to win a championship, which makes using championships as the deciding factor between two players deeply flawed. The point of my post isn't to argue that LeBron is better than Jordan, it's to argue that you can't simply point to the rings as an argument. There's much more to it than that. 

[mdn82 25,464]

I've noticed that when Jordan fans say that he's the best they always either say "6 rings" or they point to things that can't be measured. "LeBron doesn't have a killer instinct like Jordan did." "LeBron doesn't have the clutch gene like Jordan did." They never want to look at the stats, they want to make up qualities that can't be measured and say that Jordan has them and LeBron doesn't. So, let's look at the stats.

 

So many people act like rings are the end-all, be all, but I disagree. Too many variables go into winning rings to use that as the final barometer. Let's compare Jordan's stats to LeBron's. I'll take LeBron's stat-line from this year's playoffs and then take Jordan's best statistic in each category (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, field goal percentage and 3 point percentage) from his second three-peat and compare the two. 

 

LeBron: 32.4/8.8/7.6/2.0/1.4 on 56.3/41.5 percent shooting.

 

Jordan: 32.4/7.9/4.8/1.8/0.9 on 46.2/40.3 percent shooting.

 

LeBron is averaging the same number of points while shooting 10% higher from the field, grabbing more rebounds, dishing out more assists, making more steals, and blocking more shots. Keep in mind these are LeBron's stats from one playoffs while these are Jordan's best numbers from three separate playoffs. 

 

"Well, that's the playoffs, let's compare the two's numbers in the Finals. That's what matters." Okay, let's.

 

LeBron's 2017 Finals: 32.0/12.3/10.3/1.3/1.3 on 55.4/38.9 percent shooting.

 

Jordan's 1996 Finals: 27.3/5.3/4.2/1.7/0.2 on 41.5/31.6 percent shooting.

 

Jordan's 1997 Finals: 32.3/7.0/6.9/1.2/0.8 on 45.6/32.0 percent shooting.

 

Jordan's 1998 Finals: 33.5/4.0/2.3/1.8/0.7 on 42.7/30.8 percent shooting.

 

For as much as Jordan's fans talk about him and his greatness I was really expecting better numbers. This notion that LeBron chokes in the Finals while Jordan excelled is utter nonsense. It's almost as if it takes more than one player to win a championship, which makes using championships as the deciding factor between two players inaccurate. 

Ultimately there are 82 games before those playoffs. Jordan didn't take days off. Those crappy stats that you bring up were from a player that played both ends of the floor every possession, every game. You forget to go back to those regular season awards... When we point to the playoffs you say championships don't matter. Go to the regular season awards. He took a few years out of his prime and still was first team all defense 9 times to Lebrons 3. 5 times regular season MVP and 6 times Finals. What is Lebron at? Look I know it bugs you Lebron just doesn't have the awards to back himself up in the GOAT talk. He is on Mount Rushmore, but he does not play both ends of the floor. He is a different player that just doesn't match up where it matters. Fantastic player and probably top 3. If you are the GOAT you have to have awards and titles to back up your claim when everyone can pull stats. He just doesn't stack up against Jordan in either awards or titles.

 

 

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[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

3 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Ultimately there are 82 games before those playoffs. Jordan didn't take days off. Those crappy stats that you bring up were from a player that played both ends of the floor every possession, every game. You forget to go back to those regular season awards... When we point to the playoffs you say championships don't matter. Go to the regular season awards. He took a few years out of his prime and still was first team all defense 9 times to Lebrons 3. 5 times regular season MVP and 6 times Finals. What is Lebron at? Look I know it bugs you Lebron just doesn't have the awards to back himself up in the GOAT talk. He is on Mount Rushmore, but he does not play both ends of the floor. He is a different player that just doesn't match up where it matters. Fantastic player and probably top 3. If you are the GOAT you have to have awards and titles to back up your claim when everyone can pull stats. He just doesn't stack up against Jordan in either awards or titles.

 

 

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That's perfectly fine. If you take the two's bodies of work throughout their entire careers and conclude that Jordan was better then I can accept that. My post was related to the "Jordan has 6 rings so that's the end of the discussion" crowd. There's much more to it than that. Neither of us will change the other's opinion and that's fine, but I respect yours because you go past the rings and make an actual, detailed argument. 

[HoosierAloha 29,957]

LeBron is an excellent player and has had a HOF career. He'll go down in history as a top 5 player.

To the "LeBron has made it to finals more times than Jordan argument." The East was stacked in the late 80s and early 90s much like the west is in today's NBA. If LeBron was playing in the west he wouldn't have had as many finals appearances but his record would be better in the finals.

Lastly, like some people have said, someone has to put up numbers on the losing team. LeBron has an ability to get his teammates involved inversely Jordan had the ability to take over games with his scoring. Why have we seen LeBron's teammates falter on the big stage while he excels?

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

6 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

LeBron is an excellent player and has had a HOF career. He'll go down in history as a top 5 player.

To the "LeBron has made it to finals more times than Jordan argument." The East was stacked in the late 80s and early 90s much like the west is in today's NBA. If LeBron was playing in the west he wouldn't have had as many finals appearances but his record would be better in the finals.

Lastly, like some people have said, someone has to put up numbers on the losing team. LeBron has an ability to get his teammates involved inversely Jordan had the ability to take over games with his scoring. Why have we seen LeBron's teammates falter on the big stage while he excels?

Lebron's biggest fault as a player is that he always wants to make the smart basketball play which leads to him trusting his teammates more than he should, imo. Kyle Korver is statistically one of the best 3 point shooters in league history, so passing to him late in the game last night was the smart basketball play, even though I'd rather lebron have shot it. 

Jordan's also the better scorer. Their career averages aren't much different, but Jordan has many more 40, 50, 60 point games. You can pencil LeBron in for 27/7/7 basically every night but he isn't a pure scorer like Jordan. He's also too unselfish. He's a tremendous passer, one of the best since Magic, but sometimes I wish he'd quit trying to get his teammates involved and just do it on his own. That's been my biggest complaint about his game throughout his career. 

[Defenserocks28 393]

LeBron pulling a Draymond from last finals:  http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/look-lebron-james-gives-iguodala-the-draymond-treatment-with-kick-to-groin/

 

[HoosierAloha 29,957]

LeBron pulling a Draymond from last finals:  http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/look-lebron-james-gives-iguodala-the-draymond-treatment-with-kick-to-groin/
 

Surprised Iguodala didn't ask for him to be suspended.

[KingPG21 6,535]

Please get the sweep. Maybe then we can stop with this LBJ being the greatest ever. Greatest ever wouldn't get swept twice in the Finals, let alone twice with blow outs in both seires

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

19 minutes ago, KingPG21 said:

Please get the sweep. Maybe then we can stop with this LBJ being the greatest ever. Greatest ever wouldn't get swept twice in the Finals, let alone twice with blow outs in both seires

Does the greatest ever get swept twice in the First Round? 

[HoosierAloha 29,957]

How close do you think it is between MJ and Bron? Or do you think he has surpassed MJ already? Why do you think his teammates falter down the stretch that has led to a poor finals record?

[KingPG21 6,535]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Does the greatest ever get swept twice in the First Round? 

Helps when you play actual competition and not the horrible competition Bron was playing against

[TheWatShot 13,375]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Does the greatest ever get swept twice in the First Round? 

Wow, I never knew he got swept twice in the first round. Not surprising I guess, since people act like the only years he played basketball were 92-98.

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

7 minutes ago, KingPG21 said:

Helps when you play actual competition and not the horrible competition Bron was playing against

"But it's different because it's Jordan!" Lol. Ok. Continue the mental gymnastics to argue that getting swept in the Finals is worse than getting swept in the first round. The Detroit team he beat basically by himself to get to the finals was certainly not trash. Jordan never faced a team better than this year's Golden State team. 

[Hoosierfan2017 19,958]

3 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Wow, I never knew he got swept twice in the first round. Not surprising I guess, since people act like the only years he played basketball were 92-98.

Wait you didn't know that Jordan only played 6 years in the NBA and won the championship every one of them??

[mdn82 25,464]

Does the greatest ever get swept twice in the First Round? 

Maybe, maybe not. Lebron didn't make the playoffs his first two years. Both of the sweeps were against the Celtics who at the time were 1 and 2 with the Lakers. One of those seasons the Bulls got the 8 seed was a year Jordan was out for 64 games with his broken foot. The Bulls really weren't a true title threat until Jordan trusted his teammates and started passing the ball. Lebron came in right out of high school. Jordan was an early entry at a time that didn't happen often. Different times for sure. In the 80's you had the Celtics and Pistons in the East which any year could win a title. If you were a 7 or 8 you were at best winning one game. It was a best of 5 so you had to win game 3 for that to happen. That is why an 8 never beat a 1 until Denver. The first two games were critical in the first round. Way different than now. You weren't going to the Garden or Palace and winning.


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