NBA Thread

[A.j. Nigh]

Is LeBron a hell of a basketball player?  Yes.  He’s a freak of nature that can bully his way to the basket and can shoot well enough from outside to open the interior for his drives.  His style of play isn’t exactly fun to watch.  Like Shaq, he can just physically dominate players.  When you’re a defender and an offensive player can bulldoze into you and get a foul call, there’s not much you can do.  Shaq did it, LeBron does it; I don’t like that the NBA allowed it for Shaq, I don't like that they allow it for LeBron.  How someone running full steam right into a defender with position, shove their elbow or shoulder into the defender, and still get a defensive foul call….I just don’t get it.  So there, that sucks to watch. 
 
However, I don’t like LeBron because he’s arrogant as all heck.  Who in the hell anoints oneself as “The King”, “The Chosen One.”  Seriously, if that isn’t egotistical and ridiculous, I don’t know what is.  Then, he decided that he needs to be the GM for his teams.  And when that roster management leads to poor decisions and declining teams, he jumps ship.  See Cleveland, see Miami, see Cleveland after this year.  Teams he’s on get lazy, they don’t defend, they phone in games, and LeBron acts like it’s all their fault when he’s obviously always the common denominator.  Say what you will about MJ, but his teams brought it season after season. You knew you were always getting his best on a nightly basis.  With LeBron, who the heck knows.
 
I guess you could summarize my disdain for LeBron in that he’s utterly arrogant, causes issues and drama on every team he’s on, passes off blame to teammates, forces roster moves but then blames the GM when they don’t work out, and yes, I know every superstar does it (doesn’t mean I have to like it), but his whining…good lord. 
Regarding watching his games. I do not watch him during the regular season.  But I love watching our former Hoosiers, and thus, have been watching these playoffs.  It is what it is. Trust me, I wish he was playing in the Western Conference so he'd be eliminated by the 2nd round and I wouldn't have to watch him any longer.  

You mentioned all that and are correct, yet didn’t mention my biggest issue, he’s a ridiculous flopper. He’s a 6’8 250 specimen that falls to the floor like he’s been shot in the back when there’s the slightest contact. Not to mention, the checking for blood EVERY time there’s a foul on the way to the basket.

MJ will always be better IMO, he was a SG that played tough, like he was an old school PF. Lebron is a PF that wants to play like a SG.


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[Class of '66 Old Fart]

Well it was short and not so sweet for the Raptors as they get swept by the Cavs.  A 123-98 pounding in game #4.  Cavs shot 59.5% from the floor and 46% on 3's.

5.07			W/L	Min.	Pts.	FG's	3's	FT's	Reb	Asst	TO	Stl	Blk	PF	+/-
Tor	OG	0-4	L	20	2	1-3	0-1	0-0	2	1	2	0	0	3	-23
Hou	EG	3-1

[Class of '66 Old Fart]

From Pat Boylan - Pacers Radio Guy

Beginning with the 2012 Playoffs, LeBron James has played 5 series against the Pacers, 15 series against other East teams. In 5 series the Pacers have won 10 games. In 15 series all other East teams have won 11.

[HooHooHoo22]

This is insane


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[HoosierAloha]

8 minutes ago, HooHooHoo22 said:

This is insane


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The NBA could actually do something about it but...  FREE THE BEARD!

[Dalton26]

3 hours ago, A.j. Nigh said:

 

You mentioned all that and are correct, yet didn’t mention my biggest issue, he’s a ridiculous flopper. He’s a 6’8 250 specimen that falls to the floor like he’s been shot in the back when there’s the slightest contact. Not to mention, the checking for blood EVERY time there’s a foul on the way to the basket.

MJ will always be better IMO, he was a SG that played tough, like he was an old school PF. Lebron is a PF that wants to play like a SG.


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In todays league almost all stars are floppers, its a product of the environment. Youre crazy if you dont think Jordan would be doing the same thing if he played right now. The players play the way the referees officiate, if it gets rewarded why would you not do it? Not to mention as someone mentioned before, LeBron is so big and strong if he didnt flop he'd never get a call. Shaq had the same issue that he would get hammered and never get a call because he was big and strong enough to go through the contact.

 

I'm not a fan of LeBron but in my eyes there is no question he is the best player in the world today, and probably the best player of all time.

[Hoosierfan2017]

36 minutes ago, Dalton26 said:

In todays league almost all stars are floppers, its a product of the environment. Youre crazy if you dont think Jordan would be doing the same thing if he played right now. The players play the way the referees officiate, if it gets rewarded why would you not do it? Not to mention as someone mentioned before, LeBron is so big and strong if he didnt flop he'd never get a call. Shaq had the same issue that he would get hammered and never get a call because he was big and strong enough to go through the contact.

 

I'm not a fan of LeBron but in my eyes there is no question he is the best player in the world today, and probably the best player of all time.

This is how I see it too. LeBron's 6'8 265 pounds. Few players can actually move him. If he didn't "flop" and sell calls he would rarely get them because what looks like a foul on a smaller player doesn't look like one against tanks like LeBron and Shaq. Sure, he exaggerates, but he's still getting fouled on those plays. He gets the crap beat out of him throughout the game. He just makes it to where the refs can actually see it. 

[biteoftheapple]

I will agree LBJ is the best today, but for me there is so many candidates for all time greatness. We have Jabbar, Chamberlain, Jordan, and more. Its too hard to judge when the style of play has changed so much. Plus these players arenot competing at the same era

 

 

[HoosierAloha]

23 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This is how I see it too. LeBron's 6'8 265 pounds. Few players can actually move him. If he didn't "flop" and sell calls he would rarely get them because what looks like a foul on a smaller player doesn't look like one against tanks like LeBron and Shaq. Sure, he exaggerates, but he's still getting fouled on those plays. He gets the crap beat out of him throughout the game. He just makes it to where the refs can actually see it. 

For discussion, what do you think of LeBron being able to physically impose his will through a defender? 

[Hoosierfan2017]

17 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

For discussion, what do you think of LeBron being able to physically impose his will through a defender? 

What do you mean?

[mdn82]

What do you mean?

I believe he means his ability to go through a defender without getting a charge called.


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[mdn82]

I will agree LBJ is the best today, but for me there is so many candidates for all time greatness. We have Jabbar, Chamberlain, Jordan, and more. Its too hard to judge when the style of play has changed so much. Plus these players arenot competing at the same era
 
 

Yeah this is Lebrons era. I doubt many would argue that. I am glad I have got to witness different eras. Personally if I were to start a team it would be hard to turn down MJ. Him and Lebron are two players you can say I have never seen a player like them and probably won’t again. So different. It ultimately comes down to preference. I personally prefer Jordan. I have never seen a player that could will his team to victory damn near every night in the regular season or playoffs. Lebron has skills other players don’t. It’s ultimately preference.


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[HoosierAloha]

32 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

What do you mean?

 

15 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I believe he means his ability to go through a defender without getting a charge called.


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Yes, I mean his ability to lower his shoulder when driving or just bully his way into a defender when the defender has position.

 

[Dalton26]

8 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Yeah this is Lebrons era. I doubt many would argue that. I am glad I have got to witness different eras. Personally if I were to start a team it would be hard to turn down MJ. Him and Lebron are two players you can say I have never seen a player like them and probably won’t again. So different. It ultimately comes down to preference. I personally prefer Jordan. I have never seen a player that could will his team to victory damn near every night in the regular season or playoffs. Lebron has skills other players don’t. It’s ultimately preference.


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A perfect explanation of this imo came from one of my old basketball coaches and an admitted MJ fan. If they were playing one on one he said he'd take LeBron, if you were giving them each 4 of the exact same teammates he'd take MJ. His reasoning was 1 on 1 he thought LeBron was the better player, while as a team he thought MJ made those around him better than LeBron does. 

[mdn82]

A perfect explanation of this imo came from one of my old basketball coaches and an admitted MJ fan. If they were playing one on one he said he'd take LeBron, if you were giving them each 4 of the exact same teammates he'd take MJ. His reasoning was 1 on 1 he thought LeBron was the better player, while as a team he thought MJ made those around him better than LeBron does. 

It’s honestly funny because I think both would play each other the same as they do/did in their prime. Jordan would hit his fadeaway or get to the rim. Lebron at 265 would go through 210 Jordan. I think Jordan had more consistent weapons offensively, but Lebron sees things others don’t/haven’t. Jordan was a better defender, but when Lebron wants to he can be. I do think coaching is better now than when Jordan played. That affects things. There are just too many variables that are different.


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[bigrod]

2 hours ago, Dalton26 said:

In todays league almost all stars are floppers, its a product of the environment. Youre crazy if you dont think Jordan would be doing the same thing if he played right now. The players play the way the referees officiate, if it gets rewarded why would you not do it? Not to mention as someone mentioned before, LeBron is so big and strong if he didnt flop he'd never get a call. Shaq had the same issue that he would get hammered and never get a call because he was big and strong enough to go through the contact.

 

I'm not a fan of LeBron but in my eyes there is no question he is the best player in the world today, and probably the best player of all time.

It's hard for me to imagine Jordan flopping. I mean, I was one of the people who said his name was Air Jordan because if you disrupted the air around him, they called a foul. But, that guy was so intense and single minded, I just think that would have been something that would take away from his focus and he just wouldn't have it.

Being a Pacers fan, I was no fan of Jordan when he played, but I respected the hell out of him. I've never seen a player with his intense focus every game. It is just hard for me to see him participating in the WWF moves that LeBron and others use today.

[Hoosierfan2017]

36 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

 

Yes, I mean his ability to lower his shoulder when driving or just bully his way into a defender when the defender has position.

 

I'm fine with it. If the refs thought that it was a foul then they would call it, and sometimes they do. Players could also flop when he does it to draw a call if they'd like. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

I won't get into this debate too much, because no one is changing my mind that LeBron is the greatest ever, and I'm not changing anyone else's mind either, but I think Jordan and his era have been romanticized quite a bit.

Jordan never won a playoff series without Scottie Pippen. He's 1-9 all-time in the playoffs without him. LeBron gets a lot of crap for "abandoning his team", but his organization wasn't nearly as competent as Michael Jordan's. LeBron played his first 7 years in Cleveland without them building a championship caliber team around him. Instead, they surrounded him with players like Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Hughes and Sasha Pavlovic. LeBron still took that squad to the NBA finals... When he was 22 years old.

When Jordan was winning his championships he played in an NBA weakened by expansion. His finals competition was not nearly as stiff as LeBron's has been. His rise came when the Lakers, Pistons and Celtics fell. He never played a team nearly as good as the 73 win 2016 Warriors. The Warriors had to beg the second best player in the world to come join them after LeBron beat them.

Jordan got the benefit of almost 2 full seasons of rest. If he doesn't retire in 1993 there's a chance he never wins 6 championships. People claim that he would've won 8 straight if he didn't retire, but that's doubtful. In fact, he came back and lost to the Magic in the conference semifinals in 1995. LeBron has played in 7 straight NBA finals. That's a ton of minutes on top of his heavy regular season load. He's already got over 53k NBA minutes on his body. Jordan only had 48,485 when he retired for good. 

As for handchecking... It still happens every game. LeBron was constantly getting handchecked on and off the ball by Toronto. 

LeBron is the better scorer, rebounder and passer. Jordan only averaged more per game because he took more shots. Jordan averaged 2.9 more points per game and 3.3 more shots. LeBron is also the better 3 point shooter. 

LeBron is more clutch. He shoots a higher percentage on game-tying/go-ahead field goals with under 10 seconds left in the postseason. He also has more career  playoff buzzer beaters than Jordan and more playoff game winners. He's better in elimination games than Michael Jordan was.

LeBron is #1 in playoff points, #1 in playoff steals, #3 in playoff assists, and #7 in playoff rebounds. He's the only player with at least 30k points, 8k rebounds and 8k assists. There has never been a better all-around player than LeBron James. 

 

[Walking Boot of Doom]

That was thorough. I think a vast majority of the LeBron hate can be explained by the Pacer fandom of this forum.


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[Hoosierfan2017]

And none of that is to say that I think Michael Jordan sucked. I wasn't alive to watch him live, but I've watched reruns of games online. He was phenomenal. 2nd best player of all time. I just think that LeBron is #1 if you look past the glamour of "6-0" in the finals and judge the two against each other as individuals. 

Judging individual players by team accomplishments like rings has never made much sense to me. It's also never made much sense to care about someone's "finals record". Would LeBron's resume be more impressive if he had lost in the ECF those 5 years instead of the finals? No, of course not. This year he'll drag the Cavs back to the finals but after the season all we'll hear about is how he's "3-6 in the finals." Last year he averaged 33.6/12/10 on 56.4% shooting, but it gets lost because he couldn't beat a team with the 2nd and 3rd best players in the world, a top 3 shooter of all time, and the DPOY.

Sure, Jordan never lost in the finals, but it's not like he only played in those 6 seasons he won championships. He lost in the conference finals, semifinals, and first round. Losing in one of those 3 rounds isn't better than losing in the finals, so I don't get why so much is made about their "finals records".