Should we stop recruiting five star centers?

[Banksyrules 4,802]

Just wondering.  If we stopped using all of our resources on those guys and focus on good fundamentally sound big guys who can rebound and block shots perhaps.  I just remember Van Treese from Louiville didn't end up highly touted by the end of his high school career, but now is providing good minutes for them.  

 

However that means we would have to have a powerful 1-3.  

 

Just think Crean might be stymied with a bad rep of not being able to cater to elite big men.  I know that we can boast that Vonleh and Cody might both be top five picks, but others seem to believe that they were that way through their own accord.  

[djsalway 4,161]

Sure they were lottery picks because of their talent, but you can't say that the coaching staff had nothing to do with it. This year, they developed Noah's outside game. With Cody, they did relatively the same thing (excluding the 3 ball). I think it's worth it, because if we can even land 1 every 3 years, it's a win-win for everybody. No reason to stop now even if we've underused the last two. Everything is going to get better.

[Hovadipo 56,248]

That's exactly what we had in Fischer. Just an unfortunate situation.


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[mdn82 25,510]

Stop recruiting more talented players?  I know you have logic behind that, but never.  I would prefer more bigs like Luke however.  Him ranked around 30 > than anyone who is ranked as high due to upside.  Don't care if Luke had no more upside than what he came in with.  He came in with 2 feet and BBIQ.  That will go a long way when you are 7'.

[Banksyrules 4,802]

Sure they were lottery picks because of their talent, but you can't say that the coaching staff had nothing to do with it. This year, they developed Noah's outside game. With Cody, they did relatively the same thing (excluding the 3 ball). I think it's worth it, because if we can even land 1 every 3 years, it's a win-win for everybody. No reason to stop now even if we've underused the last two. Everything is going to get better.

For the record I don't believe it myself, but I feel this is the argument other teams will use against us.   

[BlueDevil 8,687]

No

[RoadToZion 373]

and I thought I've heard it all......

[Banksyrules 4,802]

and I thought I've heard it all......

Well this is rude, without any substance.  I'm just trying to offer one perspective on how I think Coach Crean can help his future teams get better.  That's why I'm asking for opinions.  I'm not saying it's definitive just throwing out an idea and asking what my fellow Hoosiers think.   

 

There are plenty of teams who have done well in the tournament without an elite center to carry the load.  I just think if we focus our resources on getting the one or two guys who think will provide stability then flash we can create great teams.

 

If we keep waiting for all those five stars to make their decisions, I would hate to lose out on good big men who accepted other offers.  

I think Coach Crean can easily recruit elite men for 1-3 spots to create formidable teams.  Not everybody in the starting five has to be elite, just fundamentally sound.  

[Bryan Medema 1,488]

Based on the way the NCAA tournament rewards teams that play with smaller (or more guard oriented) line-ups, it's not that crazy of a thought. Emphasising recruitment and development of 2-3 star post players that will stay for 4 years should ultimately benefit the team both in terms of stability and the ability to play Coach Crean's preffered style. We've seen that Crean is in his element when he routes his offense through guard and wing play, not the post. Competent big men who have the opportunity to develop, grow, and mature for 4-years would be an invaluable asset. Yes, players like Noah and Randle have the ability to immensly impact the court, however we've seen players like Kominsky prove the ability of a tenured big men, albeit less touted, to influence the game immensly. Target the low-mid range bigs and continue to bring in the immensly talented guards/wings that Crean has proven he can work with. It may hurt us a bit in the B1G, but ultimately it will help us in the tournament.

[colonel06 1,917]

I agree with Banksyrules and Bryan Medema on this as they make some strong points.  The question remains can the coaching staff develop a Kaminsky-type player?

[Banksyrules 4,802]

I agree with Banksyrules and Bryan Medema on this as they make some strong points.  The question remains can the coaching staff develop a Kaminsky-type player?

hmmm that's a great point.   

[Hoosier2014 289]

I agree with Banksyrules and Bryan Medema on this as they make some strong points.  The question remains can the coaching staff develop a Kaminsky-type player?

I think they can given the right player but they haven't really had the chance due to the type of big men they have gotten. Their best chance was probably Pritchard, and well, we will leave it at that. I know I'm beating a dead horse but Fischer would've been a GREAT 4 year player/ Kaminsky type.

[Bryan Medema 1,488]

For all of the people dismissing this thread and the very idea without further consideration, I urge you too look a little more closely at why this idea isn't pure insanity. By looking at IU's (under Crean) style of basketball, the way the NCAA tournament works, and the expectations of student athletes at IU, this actually makes a lot of sense. 

 

Stylistically, the foundation of Tom Crean's offense comes from the ability of at minimum 1 player to be a consistent threat to penetrate the lane and either finish at the basket (drawing fouls in the process) or kick the ball out to an open shooter on the perimeter. The current makeup of the team (Yogi/Stan/Troy as penetrating forces, JB2/RJ/Maximus as catch and shoot perimeter threats) seems fit to maximize the effectiveness of this style of play. What good does a stud center do in this offense? He may provide occasional post plays, P&Rs, and offense rebounds, but more often than not he'll find himself in the way or disrupting the offenses ability to get in rhythm. Therefore, avoiding premier big men who will demand the ball and be unhappy when they don't get it (Noah) should be the priority while looking for lower rated, athletic centers capable of working the transition game (much like Cody did) should be prime targets. These players don't have to be exceptionally tall, just athletic and capable of running the floor at a high rate (what we all hope HP becomes). The main purpose of the "5" in Tom Crean's system is to provide an extra target in transition and stay out of the way when the offense is being run. On defense, he would just need to put up a fight and hunt for rebounds; two easier things to teach than offense.

 

In the tournament, guards have an inherent advantage. The influence of mid-major referees, who typically only work games featuring smaller players, one of whom is a relative man among boys in terms of talent, in the tournament makes it far easier to succeed as a team built around guards and wings due to the higher rate of fouls called on 4/5s (there's an article on this somewhere). This actually explains why the B1G, a league who's very reputation revolves around being a grind-it-out, punch-for-punch in the paint, hasn't tasted glory in more than a decade. The tournament favors guards, the B1G doesn't. So long as we can find our way to the tournament, we can find a way to win. 

 

The final point is that talented big men who can do little more than walk and chew gum coming out of HS are almost guaranteed to be one and done type players. Unlike guards who are competing with a significantly larger pool, bigs only have to show potential to be draft able. For the sake of maintaining a reputation for graduating players and developing young men, we shouldn't look at the big men who we know will only use IU as a temporary home.

 

Focusing on less prized centers can allow us to have our cake and eat it too; success on the court while allowing us to ultimately fulfill the more important goal of preparing young men for the rest of their lives in the greatest possible environment. 

[Hwy 1 2,053]

I think what you guys are missing is you don't say we don't take another 5* big. If you can get them you take those guys every day and three times on Sunday. What you also need is a guy (or  more) like Luke who will develop into a strong role on the team. In this case Luke got homesick and went home crying to mommy. Sometimes poop happens and you have no control over it.  We also have Hanner and Peter who are projects, the kind of guys you're talking about. Neither project has worked out too well so far. Right now we have to hope that Hanner suddenly comes to life next year. He should at least make some progress.  It doesn't look much like Peter will ever be of great value.

[Clete Johnson 17]

As a coach, you either recruit talent to a style you like to play. Or, you play to the best style, for the team you have recruited. Crean seems to coach more from the first example. With that being said, I think you have a great point, and I would answer with a yes. But, as a fan of the Hoosiers, I would like to answer no, and get the best talent we could get. It comes down to a coach, and I think most college coaches fit in the first group.

[Banksyrules 4,802]

I think what you guys are missing is you don't say we don't take another 5* big. If you can get them you take those guys every day and three times on Sunday. What you also need is a guy (or  more) like Luke who will develop into a strong role on the team. In this case Luke got homesick and went home crying to mommy. Sometimes poop happens and you have no control over it.  We also have Hanner and Peter who are projects, the kind of guys you're talking about. Neither project has worked out too well so far. Right now we have to hope that Hanner suddenly comes to life next year. He should at least make some progress.  It doesn't look much like Peter will ever be of great value.

 I never said anything about projects.   I just said five star centers.  I'm talking about the centers who are part of the top 25 recruits for each class.  There are plenty of guys (like Luke before he transferred ) who are fundamentally  sound who can contribute.  

 

Plus if a five star big wants to play for us, of course you don't turn it down.  

 

For the sake of time management and resource allocation I think Coach Crean would be best served to focus on getting the best players in the 1- 3 slots, while getting good rebounders or shot blockers  who can help maximize the strengths of our guards and small forwards.

Example. Remember Luke Hargondy (Spelling) from Notre Dame, he was not well known but played great minutes for the Irish.  With our guards we have coming in now, he would thrived in our system.  

[Hwy 1 2,053]

I never said anything about projects.   I just said five star centers.  I'm talking about the centers who are part of the top 25 recruits for each class.  There are plenty of guys (like Luke before he transferred ) who are fundamentally  sound who can contribute.

So, he got his Luke, but Luke went home to mommy. Coach did his job but who could predict a kid is going to run home after one semester.
 

Plus if a five star big wants to play for us, of course you don't turn it down.

Five star bigs just don't fall out of trees. You have to recruit them.  
 

For the sake of time management and resource allocation I think Coach Crean would be best served to focus on getting the best players in the 1- 3 slots, while getting good rebounders or shot blockers  who can help maximize the strengths of our guards and small forwards.

See the last answer.
 

Example. Remember Luke Hargondy (Spelling) from Notre Dame, he was not well known but played great minutes for the Irish.  With our guards we have coming in now, he would thrived in our system.

Remember Luke Fischer? He would have thrived in our system with the guards we have coming in if he hadn't ran home to mommy. The player you want in this thread was here. They don't grow on trees and picking up another in the Spring is a daunting task. Any available are in HIGH demand.

Remember Hanner and Peter? Two more bigs who aren't working out. Not every "Luke Hargondy" works out. That's why you go after top talent too whenever you can and you can't get them without recruiting. No 5 Star is ever going to call you up and say "Hey coach even though you've never even so much as given me a call, I want to come play for you instead of all these other coaches who are wining and dining me and telling me I'm the best thing ever!"

You don't stop recruiting 5 Stars at any position if you want to play on the big boy stage. Sorry, the concept is flawed.

[IUfan_Charlie 3,867]

Why would you purposely try and recruit less talented players? That logic make ZERO sense. 

[Banksyrules 4,802]

So, he got his Luke, but Luke went home to mommy. Coach did his job but who could predict a kid is going to run home after one semester.
 

Five star bigs just don't fall out of trees. You have to recruit them.  
 

See the last answer.
 

Remember Luke Fischer? He would have thrived in our system with the guards we have coming in if he hadn't ran home to mommy. The player you want in this thread was here. They don't grow on trees and picking up another in the Spring is a daunting task. Any available are in HIGH demand.

Remember Hanner and Peter? Two more bigs who aren't working out. Not every "Luke Hargondy" works out. That's why you go after top talent too whenever you can and you can't get them without recruiting. No 5 Star is ever going to call you up and say "Hey coach even though you've never even so much as given me a call, I want to come play for you instead of all these other coaches who are wining and dining me and telling me I'm the best thing ever!"

You don't stop recruiting 5 Stars at any position if you want to play on the big boy stage. Sorry, the concept is flawed.

Are you telling me the state of Indiana can't produce big men who are fundamentally sound?  I just gave you one example of many. 

Coach Crean just got one Luke, but there is no reason he can't get 2 or 3 big men who have great rebounding skills who provide great defense.  There are plenty of them out there.  I'm talking about kids who have more of a skill set then Hanner or Peter.  Hargondy was never a project, he just had great fundamentals.  

 

It would probably not be advantageous of you to always bring up the worst case example when presenting your argument each time.  There are kids who have better skill sets then Peter and Hanner but who are not elite.  

[Banksyrules 4,802]

Why would you purposely try and recruit less talented players? That logic make ZERO sense. 

I just think with Crean's system I think a lot of other teams are going to attack us by mentioning to elite big men that under our Coach's system they will not thrive and become better.

 

If you honestly think we are going to get Stephen Zimmerman or a Diamond Stone then yes ignore what I just said ( and I hope we do get them), but if we can get those kids (top26-100 in each class) centers who help contribute and actually help our guards and small forwards thrive, I wouldn't be opposed to it.